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Fighters other than the Rampart

Onto different matters regarding fighters;
I remember years back I asked about a squadron of standard Ramparts verse standard Type-S scouts. In my head I had it that the scout ship, because it had a turret, might have some kind of advantage in space. Loose analogy; a B-17, B-24 or 29 with its many turrets doesn't have too much of an advantage with its gunners because it's essentially relying on mark-1 eyeballs. A scout ship on the other hand has a gunner, but has advanced targeting hardware equivalent or better than an F-15. But, according to the rules, the fighters come out on top. The counter to that is that the Ramparts also have the same hardware/software running. But, the Rampart is only armed with pulse lasers.

The point here is that, in my opinion, the rules tend to breakdown a little. The truth is we don't know what's actually happening. Maybe the Ramparts are constantly out maneuvering the scouts by staying on their bellies. I'll note that, so far as I can remember, TL was not an issue because both were assumed to be the same TL.

So, what I saying with this? Fighters, in my opinion, have yet to be fully addressed in Traveller. :)

In your example here I'd say the fighter v. scout worked correctly... because the fighter could come in at all different angles at the same time and engage the scout that way. Using your B-17 analogy that would be how it was done in WW2, too. B-17's may have been tough to shoot down, but they were shot down in droves early on when they weren't escorted by fighters, or in large, tight formations to cover each other - and even then they had heavy losses (compared to very few by the RAF night bombers) because the US bombers attacked during the day and were big (although heavily armed and hard to kill) targets.

Flak accounted for a lot of them, too, but the fighters were the worst and always accounted for higher kills in all theaters by all nationalities. The reason wasn't the targeting - if it was then the bombers had the advantage of firing from a steadier platform with often heavier ammo, and a lot more ammo than a fighter could carry.

But, the fighter had the advantage of higher agility, greater speed, and could disengage and then reengage from a position of advantage at will, where the bombers could not. The fighters would also co-ordinate their attacks on the more vulnerable areas of the bombers (like diving from the 12 o'clock high position to strafe along the top of the cockpit of B-17's) and the bombers couldn't do anything to get out of the way to avoid it.

They could shoot back, but with fighters coming from different angles all the time and then others co-coordinating diving attacks (check on the Sturmbock and WildeSau units for how the dedicated bomber hunting units did it...the JG 50, too) where they knew the guns were least likely to cover the bombers the tiny, more lightly armed fighters could kill unescorted bombers like flies. That changed completely when thee P-47 and especially P-51 showed up.

So your analogy might seem loose, no super heavy armor on the bombers, but not wrong - its precisely why there is a good argument for effective fighters to available at ALL tech levels. And maybe why agility for really big ships is overdone, especially ones that have stay in their line of battle.

Speaking of which - why not toss the rule that ships can't break that line to attack the reserve "behind" it when fast, small, agile fighter squadrons operating at high speed in a 3-D environment ought to have a chance of getting past the main line to attack the vulneralbe ships in the reat: tankers, battlerider tenders, the rule how reserves not getting to shoot back on the t round they are attacked, etc..? Now THAT seems like a perfect role for fighters
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Maybe a better example would be a flight of fighters against an SDB or SDB flotilla.

Mike; admittedly I need to look at High Guard again, but I'm more or less considering this topic for development as opposed to a gaming session (of which I have no more of).
 
But only because IR seeker heads weren't sensitive enough to pick up friction heat off the rest of the plane. Soon after the were that sensitive and could engage from any angle and a much lower level of heat, yet also from a greater range and short time required for lock.

So once again a TL advantage is evidenced.

No argument there, though I think the all-aspect IR Seekers were late 70's vintage. In aircraft evolution we're talking Mustangs being a potential threat against aircraft three generations more advanced. TL-wise that's a two-TL difference (TL-5 vs. TL-7).

Sticking IR missiles, flare and decoy dispensers on a Mustang-equivalent makes things even more interesting.
 
No argument there, though I think the all-aspect IR Seekers were late 70's vintage. In aircraft evolution we're talking Mustangs being a potential threat against aircraft three generations more advanced. TL-wise that's a two-TL difference (TL-5 vs. TL-7).

Sticking IR missiles, flare and decoy dispensers on a Mustang-equivalent makes things even more interesting.

Didn't I point out that the missiles were not all-angle IR seekers?

And as for decoys and such, since I have been saying that all along (as has Blue Ghost and other proponents of effective Traveller fighters) I don't understand what you mean here. Maybe I'm just getting burnt out here.

I get tired of the usual "NO YOU CAN"T BECAUSE IT"S NOT WRITTEN IN HOLY-WRIT CANON" people going to guns all over the "WE HAVE IMAGINATION AND WANT TO APPLY IT A 30-YR OLD GAME TO MAKE IT MORE FUN" people when we are just talking about a dang role-playing game.

And t'aint just on this thread, but it always seems to be over the fighter and other wargame v RPG aspects of this game and on this Fleet forum. My suggestion is for the "Holy-Writ" wargame types is to go play Traveller as a wargame and let those who want to pay it as an RPG and come up with new things to enhance an old game (something Marc Miller said to feel free to do in the end of LBB3 to Holy-Writ Types) with some new things to freshen it up and have more fun discuss it without getting all bent over it.
 
BTW: Starviking....I'm not dumping on you - that last part was for the usual suspects. I even have Space Vikings in my game - ever since I bought it '77 and then Space Viking by Piper.

'cept mine hot glue horns to their helmets and when they ask "what's in your wallet", they mean Bank Imperiacard.

Oh and I even have the actual board game Star Viking, too. Vassal and printed versions. Fighters are there, too.
 
When you ask the author for a clarification on an unclear point and he gives it, I'm willing to accept it :)

Lol, having worked with several published rules writers, when asked a question like this on a previous project they either refuse to get involved or they take the path of least resistance on the day.

And thats a week after they start the next project, let alone some 20 years and many, many projects later. Its not unheard of for two gamers to have contradictory (& therefore canon) advice from the rules author. Not typically from Marc on Traveller though, he is normally maintains his distance on interpretation issues.

In short, my advice when dealing with rules authors is, if there is a possibility you won't like the answer, don't ask the question...

I'll take your word on the email (I don't have a game coming up :)) & yes a dictate from Marc would trump all else (meaning I will use/ask for a house rule), but Don has a mechanism for fixing oddities & this is definitely an oddity. Hopefully not as controversial as batteries...

If someone else doesn't raise it with Don, I'll start a new thread for it. But not now, I'm engrossed in looking at Eurisko :) & this can wait.

For what its worth, it would be useful if your HGS programme would allow fractional PP's as an option for the user to switch on/off. A lot of people use HGS (enough that I always maintain a current copy) & when fractional PP's are the norm, HGS gives those using pen & paper or a spreadsheet, a design advantage.
 
The EPs and fuel in the data block are both fractional still.

Andrew & I are talking about the PP rating, which needs to be an integer to be usable in the USP. I've always assumed your custom PP (thats the HG description) is rated down to the nearest integer for the USP. It is possible in Marc's mind he was relating Andrews original enquiry to "of course you cannot have a fraction in the USP..."

For example the 8.5 ton Gnat has a PP12, the calc is 8.5 * 24% = 2.04 ton & 8.5 * .12 = 1.02 EP.

The Gnat only needs 1 EP to power its laser. Any more than that is pointless unless you are looking to power other equipment or Agility.

So the PP becomes 100 / 8.5 = 11.765 PP, rated as PP11. It needs only 1 ton of fuel and weighs 2 ton.

It doesn't matter a lot with fighters, but if you are building larger ships it can make a huge differance. For example a 1000 ton TL14 J4 Agility-6 fleet courier needs a PP7. Thats PP 6 to provide the Agility-6, plus a further PP1 to power the computer which needs 2 EP. That extra PP1 to get a whole number, provides 10EP (5 times larger...not very 'custom'), weighs an extra 20 ton and costs an extra 60 MCr. Not to mention the fuel required for the PP is 70 ton (vs 60 ton otherwise needed for a PP-6). In this case Engineering crew does not increase, but on larger ships that also becomes an issue.

So to get that excess 9.8EP costs you as a ship designer 29.4 ton (near 3% of the total ship) plus Engineering crew/staterooms if needed and an extra 58.8 MCr (enough for 2 Rampart V's).

As the ship in question gets larger, the savings scale up.
 
Lol, having worked with several published rules writers, when asked a question like this on a previous project they either refuse to get involved or they take the path of least resistance on the day.

And thats a week after they start the next project, let alone some 20 years and many, many projects later. Its not unheard of for two gamers to have contradictory (& therefore canon) advice from the rules author. Not typically from Marc on Traveller though, he is normally maintains his distance on interpretation issues.

In short, my advice when dealing with rules authors is, if there is a possibility you won't like the answer, don't ask the question...

(knee deep in broken crockery and glass yet again so please excuse if I seem a little terse)

In this case I didn't really have a choice, my tutor needed the clarification for HGS. But I did find a hard copy of the email and it was a "one liner" 13 years ago so I would not be one bit surprised if asked today he gave a different answer and I would be overjoyed if he did (I agree that the integer PP is just plain wrong)

I'll take your word on the email (I don't have a game coming up :)) & yes a dictate from Marc would trump all else (meaning I will use/ask for a house rule), but Don has a mechanism for fixing oddities & this is definitely an oddity. Hopefully not as controversial as batteries...

If someone else doesn't raise it with Don, I'll start a new thread for it. But not now, I'm engrossed in looking at Eurisko :) & this can wait.

Definitely not too urgent and like you say easily house ruled out of existence. I still think just going over to a fixed EP value is better than fractional PPs.

For what its worth, it would be useful if your HGS programme would allow fractional PP's as an option for the user to switch on/off. A lot of people use HGS (enough that I always maintain a current copy) & when fractional PP's are the norm, HGS gives those using pen & paper or a spreadsheet, a design advantage.

I'd already decided to put the fixed EP option in as part of HG3 support (the code is mostly already there, just a few minor issues with it). I find fractional PPs "inelegant" and that has the same effect. I was planning to release a version with that part enabled today, but mother nature had other ideas :)
 
Yep, my flatmate arrived home a few hours ago after being delayed at the ChristChurch airport by it. Him walking in was the first I heard about the new quake.

Arse. :(

On the HGS front a fixed EP solution should generate the same results as a fractional PP. Either solution would be good & elegant would be better.
 
You know its bad when your 11 year old son not only knows how to spell liquefaction but can drop it into casual conversation :)

I was hoping to release it all with full support for HG3, a component export option and refitting. But its worth it on its own probably (plus more user defined components)
 
So your analogy might seem loose, no super heavy armor on the bombers, but not wrong - its precisely why there is a good argument for effective fighters to available at ALL tech levels. And maybe why agility for really big ships is overdone, especially ones that have stay in their line of battle.

Speaking of which - why not toss the rule that ships can't break that line to attack the reserve "behind" it when fast, small, agile fighter squadrons operating at high speed in a 3-D environment ought to have a chance of getting past the main line to attack the vulneralbe ships in the reat: tankers, battlerider tenders, the rule how reserves not getting to shoot back on the t round they are attacked, etc..? Now THAT seems like a perfect role for fighters
.

Sabredog, there are a number of things that you can do to overcome the limitations of High Guard Combat, and the universality of the weapons, agility, speed of warships, that you are struggling against.

All of these should be play-tested, YMMV.

1. First, organize fighters as a squadron, with a single battery (or, as many batteries as you must have to meet the rule). Each hit on the squadron reduces the USP of the battery weapon by 1, and disables a fighter. Or, if that seems too much, determine the average number of hits to mission kill the fighter, and reduce the turret by 1 fighter (and therefore the USP) whenever the squadron takes that number of hits.

2. Allow fighters to perform "area defense" duties to "capital" ships, and "escort" duties to area defense fighters. In area defense mode, the fighter has no dog-fighting ability, instead it provides its sand, laser, and EW against incoming missiles as a pool for the entire Line. In escort mode, the fighter may ONLY engage other fighters attempting to attack an area defense fighter, and it shoots first and applies damage BEFORE the attacking fighter/warship attacks the area defense fighter. These missions can be performed by individual ships, or by squadrons, as you like. Note that Area defense should occur before a ship's point defenses - missiles should have to clear through - in this order - fighter area defense screen, target ship's Lasers/Sand/EW, target ship's Repulsors, Nuclear Dampers.

3. Conduct HG battles not as truly abstract battles, but partly abstract. By this I mean, assume that Short range is 0-1 LS, and Long range 1-3 LS, detection occurs at 2 LS and is "lost" beyond 3 LS. You can do this by physically mapping the ships, or just keeping track of the location of the battle. By creating separation of forces (such as carriers far back, or fighters well-ahead), establishing ranges, and utilizing detection, you can re-gain the feel of carrier operations. I suggest tracking distance in Bands, whatever suits your fancy, but 25Kkm bands seem to work well within the HG 20minute a battle, and 1G of thrust equates to +1 band of velocity. I have charts, measured in HG Combat turns, to show this when operating around a planet - they would be pretty easy to map to hexes, if you'd like.

4. Give Fighters a temporary "afterburn" affect for combat, doubling their velocity (if using range). Or, make them pay for it with larger than necessary engines, or redundant engines, etc.

Within the "physics" of HG technology and rules, and the abstract nature of HG combat, it makes it very difficult to give fighters a role in TL14/15 combat beyond waiting like sitting ducks until a Breakthrough occurs. But if you are willing to de-abstract HG a little bit, you can give fast small craft some of their edge back without completely unbalancing things.
 
Nice options. I'm sure Sabredog could come up with a few of his own as well.

In fact if you are going to play test them, take some notes and write the whole thing up as an article for Freelance for the "Doing it my way" section. I'm sure that Jeff would be more than happy to accept the submission.

Best regards,

Ewan
 
:rofl: I know...but you gotta give the audience what it expects! And for some reason everyone think vikings wore horns.:oo:

The reason people now think that, has its roots in Wagner's opera. In it, they put horns on the Valkyrie helmets.
 
Sabredog, there are a number of things that you can do to overcome the limitations of High Guard Combat, and the universality of the weapons, agility, speed of warships, that you are struggling against.

All of these should be play-tested, YMMV.

1. First, organize fighters as a squadron, with a single battery (or, as many batteries as you must have to meet the rule). Each hit on the squadron reduces the USP of the battery weapon by 1, and disables a fighter. Or, if that seems too much, determine the average number of hits to mission kill the fighter, and reduce the turret by 1 fighter (and therefore the USP) whenever the squadron takes that number of hits.

Done ... that was the first house rule.

2. Allow fighters to perform "area defense" duties to "capital" ships, and "escort" duties to area defense fighters. In area defense mode, the fighter has no dog-fighting ability, instead it provides its sand, laser, and EW against incoming missiles as a pool for the entire Line. In escort mode, the fighter may ONLY engage other fighters attempting to attack an area defense fighter, and it shoots first and applies damage BEFORE the attacking fighter/warship attacks the area defense fighter. These missions can be performed by individual ships, or by squadrons, as you like. Note that Area defense should occur before a ship's point defenses - missiles should have to clear through - in this order - fighter area defense screen, target ship's Lasers/Sand/EW, target ship's Repulsors, Nuclear Dampers.

Done...fighter house-rule v1.5

3. Conduct HG battles not as truly abstract battles, but partly abstract. By this I mean, assume that Short range is 0-1 LS, and Long range 1-3 LS, detection occurs at 2 LS and is "lost" beyond 3 LS. You can do this by physically mapping the ships, or just keeping track of the location of the battle. By creating separation of forces (such as carriers far back, or fighters well-ahead), establishing ranges, and utilizing detection, you can re-gain the feel of carrier operations. I suggest tracking distance in Bands, whatever suits your fancy, but 25Kkm bands seem to work well within the HG 20minute a battle, and 1G of thrust equates to +1 band of velocity. I have charts, measured in HG Combat turns, to show this when operating around a planet - they would be pretty easy to map to hexes, if you'd like.


Done...house-rule v2.0 was to modify ranges and the effect on weapons so there is more differentiation in the effect of range and weapons vs. potential defenses. Big ships also have an agility penalty (but not emer-agility) to avoid the migraine I get imagining a 250kt BB dancing around at 4G.

4. Give Fighters a temporary "afterburn" affect for combat, doubling their velocity (if using range). Or, make them pay for it with larger than necessary engines, or redundant engines, etc.

Done ....house-rule v...oh, something: fighters don't have the same inertial damping capabilities of larger craft because they some many other things packed in them and they are made to be inherently unstable to allow for greater maneuverability (yeah, I know...that's for atmospheric real fighters but not all players get that). So pilot's have to make "Black-out" saves against Endurance to keep from blacking out or shortening the recovery period if they do a lot of dodging around. Fail and you could pass out and fly straight into the ship you're dodging around to try to avoid fire from.

Their suits help - pilot armor also plugs into their bodies and fills the spaces with oxygenated gels to help with internal damage like ripping loose the aorta, etc, etc..., but it's mainly all for justifying the extra edge I give them for defensive and offensive DM's due to "fighterness".

And unlike anybody else fighters don't take damage so much as either get a soft or hard kill when hit. A soft is either weapons or engine is out=eject and hope your side wins so you'll be recovered in your pod (like the old F-111 or B-58 crew pods where the whole cockpit basically ejected as capsule with survival gear and all - these just are capable of re-entry and limited steering once you do if close to a planet. Which in itself can make for a fun adventure). Oh. and you gotta roll 8+ on 2D6 (no modifiers) to eject safely or something bad happens.

A hard kill means it's catastrophic and the crew has to roll 10+ on 2D6 to eject safely or they die. To determine type of hit - roll 1 die...1-4 is soft kill, 5-6 is catastrophic.

Life's short as fighter jock, but that's why they get the cool movies and hot space chicks.



Within the "physics" of HG technology and rules, and the abstract nature of HG combat, it makes it very difficult to give fighters a role in TL14/15 combat beyond waiting like sitting ducks until a Breakthrough occurs. But if you are willing to de-abstract HG a little bit, you can give fast small craft some of their edge back without completely unbalancing things.

Done...loooong time ago, like after the first ed. came out. I blended it and LBB2 together to support the role-playing in the small ship realm of MTU that players live in and cleaned up the stuff that bothered me so I can run abstract battles among the giants the player-fish swim in the shadows of.

I've presented all these and more to fix the various issues, or enhance parts here and in other threads before, but this fighter thing is something I just can't help but keep getting sucked into again and again.

I think the things are cool, and I think I recall that Traveller is a cool scifi game made for role-playing. HG is more like a wargame, though, and therein lies a lot of the problem in reconciling the two into a less abstract system without freaking out a lot people. Me, I experience little dissonance if any when switching between the two in a game...none after having "fixed" it my way so long ago.

I'm just offering my 2Cr. here in these kinds of threads so all are welcome to use them or ignore them as they please.
 
The reason people now think that, has its roots in Wagner's opera. In it, they put horns on the Valkyrie helmets.

Interesting...I guess I better add a fat lady singing over the loudspeakers on the landers for a recall signal so the guys know when it's time to stop looting and get back to the ships. ;)
 
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