Fleet Structures & funding

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Bhoins:

Well from the same Supplement 5, the Auxillarys converted from AHL class Cruisers also lost their bay weapons. (And were armed the same as the commercial version of the AHL. Since they are still owned by the Navy why plate over the bays? After all they are already there so it would be cheaper to actually retain them. Apparently the Imperial Navy would prefer to keep Bay and Spinal weapons in the combat vessels instead of on Auxillaries.

So if the Imperial Navy does it, all navies must do it?
There is no reason to plate over the bays, unless you want to make the new cargo space hold an atmosphere.
Perhaps it's due to some treaty with the Zhodani?

And if they are plated over, the space is still there to be used as a cargo hold.
Bays must still be accessible from inside the ship, so your new fifty ton cargo bay can still be loaded.

Removing the plates and rearming didn't take long though, did it?

 

[mike wightman]

By the way, is your reference from page 4, where it says:

When converted to auxiliaries, all major weaponry was suppressed (removed and plated over) to comply with Imperial doctrine.

The same page that says she has

twenty-four ten-ton bays

 

[mike wightman]

This all gives me an idea, pop-up or concealed weapon bays

And a question, why does a meson bay or spinal mount have to be surface visible in the first place?

 

[Hal]

Ok, some thoughts to add to this melee of concepts

First, using the cost rules and the maintenance rules for units that are outside of your normal tech level infrastructure (ie TL 15 units on worlds not TL 15) the cost doubles both point blank and in the maintenance department. I've been working at pricing armies using GROUND FORCES and came to the conclusion that one of the hidden costs for the Spinward Marches Military is on its ground pounder force mix. For example, 10 Astrin Grav APC's cost 14.4 Megacredits at TL 12 (that's GURPS tech level 12, Traveller Tech 15). 44 Intrepid Grav tanks costs a COOL 800 Megacredits! Guys, we've not even touched wages, support elements, etc - and already we're talking about a unit that costs in excess of 800 Megacredits. The initial start up costs for vehicles in a lift unit was closer to 1,000 MCR. I've not even included costs for rifles, ammo, tents, body armor, boots, food, health care, wages, and so on. This is for just a SINGLE battalion. What are the costs going to be for a world with 1,000 battalion's?

But I digress - outfitting a unit takes money, maintaining it takes less money - this is a given. But at some point in time, the Duke's huscarles cost him a pretty penny. In a time of war, having that unit Imperialized means that it is entirely possible the Duke might have to rebuild his unit after suffering 40% casualties and say, 80% equipment losses. This will NOT be something he can do cheaply. Add to the mix that he has other responsibilities, and other drains on his resources, and you can gather quite quickly, that the monetary resources he has at his disposal must be IMMENSE!

 

[Hal]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
This all gives me an idea, pop-up or concealed weapon bays

And a question, why does a meson bay or spinal mount have to be surface visible in the first place?

For a particle beam spinal mount, it does need an exit point. For a meson beam, it likely does not need to have an open exit point (ie barrel) that is visible. Then again, it would appear that the Meson Gun also has its share of "mixed teams of writers" who visualize different things

 

[mike wightman]

If you can fire it from inside a planet, you should be able to fire it from inside a ship.

This conjures up images of a harmless looking ship...

hmm, horrid adventure idea forming

 

[Hal]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Here is another thought.

A planetary navy consisting of monitors can easily be turned into a jump capable unit by the loan of an Imperial Navy Tender...

One of the points I made a while back in another thread (or was it on TML?) was the possibility of standardizing System Defense Boats such that they can be mobilized as part of a Battlegroup using Battle Riders and Battle Tenders. Think of those ships as being "extra Ammunition" for when the Imperium loses Battle riders. This is another reason why it might be that in the overall context of a strategic game, the Battle Rider concept is actually more viable than originally thought. Also - I find it interesting that few GM's ever really play with the concept that space is really HUGE. Imagine if you will a battle rider that enters a system, disgorges its fleet of battle riders, and then finds it self in the unenviable position of needing to retreat quickly when a numerically larger fleet appears in system. The tender jumps out immediately and leaves behind its battle riders. They in turn flee to the outer system. If they are faster than most of the pursuing ships - the only way they can be "cornered" is if the enemy jumps ahead of their position, and moves towards them like a closing vise. But then and there - the enemy has divided his fleet hasn't he? In addition, what if the fleeing battle riders make a 30 degree change in course from their original heading to forestall just such an attempt by the enemy to jump directly ahead of them? Now, imagine having 4 battle riders heading off in four different directions in the first place.

Mind you, all of this is based off of GURPS TRAVELLER where ships use energy plants whose hydrogen lasts 200 years at full energy output! All of these "tactics" would require that Battle riders have extra fuel holds for power plants such that they last up to 6 months at a time. In fact, now that I think about it? Should it not be part of the standard High Guard design of battle rider ships to have 6 months fuel handy because enemy ships who have lesser fuel durations MUST break off pursuit? Ah well, another topic for sure

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Hal:
Ok, some thoughts to add to this melee of concepts

First, using the cost rules and the maintenance rules for units that are outside of your normal tech level infrastructure (ie TL 15 units on worlds not TL 15) the cost doubles both point blank and in the maintenance department. I've been working at pricing armies using GROUND FORCES and came to the conclusion that one of the hidden costs for the Spinward Marches Military is on its ground pounder force mix.

Are these cost guidelines in GURPS Traveller?
You mention Ground Forces...

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Hal:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Here is another thought.

A planetary navy consisting of monitors can easily be turned into a jump capable unit by the loan of an Imperial Navy Tender...

One of the points I made a while back in another thread (or was it on TML?) was the possibility of standardizing System Defense Boats such that they can be mobilized as part of a Battlegroup using Battle Riders and Battle Tenders. Think of those ships as being "extra Ammunition" for when the Imperium loses Battle riders. This is another reason why it might be that in the overall context of a strategic game, the Battle Rider concept is actually more viable than originally thought. Also - I find it interesting that few GM's ever really play with the concept that space is really HUGE. Imagine if you will a battle rider that enters a system, disgorges its fleet of battle riders, and then finds it self in the unenviable position of needing to retreat quickly when a numerically larger fleet appears in system. The tender jumps out immediately and leaves behind its battle riders. They in turn flee to the outer system. If they are faster than most of the pursuing ships - the only way they can be "cornered" is if the enemy jumps ahead of their position, and moves towards them like a closing vise. But then and there - the enemy has divided his fleet hasn't he? In addition, what if the fleeing battle riders make a 30 degree change in course from their original heading to forestall just such an attempt by the enemy to jump directly ahead of them? Now, imagine having 4 battle riders heading off in four different directions in the first place.

Mind you, all of this is based off of GURPS TRAVELLER where ships use energy plants whose hydrogen lasts 200 years at full energy output! All of these "tactics" would require that Battle riders have extra fuel holds for power plants such that they last up to 6 months at a time. In fact, now that I think about it? Should it not be part of the standard High Guard design of battle rider ships to have 6 months fuel handy because enemy ships who have lesser fuel durations MUST break off pursuit? Ah well, another topic for sure </font>[/QUOTE]I like the larger fuel tank idea to extend duration, but there is also the option of powering down to conserve fuel (do you have to run your factor 10 power plant at full output when not in combat? ).
At TL15 it is possible to fit a jump 1 drive into a battle rider, thus giving it the ability to flee with the tender.
Having a tanker squadron stationed in an empty hex for such an emergency might be a good idea too.

 

[Hal]

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Hal:[qb]
The problem here is that if I wanted to - I could claim that the Duke of Farhurl has two Tigress class Dreadnaughts. If on the other hand, Farhurl only has an income of 1 million credits a year, the question is raised "how does he do it?".

If the Duke Farhurl has only an income of 1 MCr/year, they his superiors can make any claim they want about what vessels he has, but that's all that it will be, claims.

</font>[/QUOTE]Actually, what I meant by those lines above that you quoted was the simple fact that a writer of Traveller Canon can state one thing, but doesn't neccessarily have to provide the proof that the entity in question can afford it. For example, I've just now (ie a few posts above) pointed out that a single Battalion of Lift Infantry costs in the vicinity of 1,000 MCr to build at TL 15 - that was just including the vehicles and such in the original cost estimate. For a TL 12 world to buy TL 15 forces, the exchange rate comes into play (ugly isn't it?). But the writer of the "canon" information on the Duke of Regina having a huscarle unit of lift infantry didn't have to take into account what the cost of such a unit would be. Imagine having to reconcile after the fact, that the Duke of Regina has at least 1,000 MCr to purchase the equipment, have it shipped to Regina (remember, it costs MONEY to ship such material from the world of origin to the destination!) I'll wager that the writer of that bit of canon didn't even once consider the costs and just thought "oh, he's Duke of Regina - he can afford it".

This is why I've been pushing in my own way, for a set of rules that actively generate what each world can or can't produce and how much money the Military has available. How many people here remember the game STARFIRE? How many people here have ever played computer strategy games where resources are the limit to how large a fleet you can have or how large a military you can have? Imagine how the Third Imperium might have been developed had it had access to a simple version of Pocket Empires?

In creating a spreadsheet on the Gross Domestic Product for sectors within the Spinward Marches, I hoped to have some idea of what is or is not possible. I would also like to see some game mechanism for simulating a functioning viable Spinward Marches economy so that someone can build a series of Fifth Frontier War style game that is honest and true to what is possible rather than being an artificial construct such as the boardgame FFW is. Don't believe me? Try building a BatRon of Imperial Ships based on ship types within the book FIGHTINS SHIPS OF THE IMPERIUM, and build similar ships using High Guard for the Zhodani. Then do a High Guard combat for two opposing batrons. Anyone willing to bet that the battle will end differently than the game mechanics within Fifth Frontier War gameboard version?

 

[Admiral Morgan]

In MT in the advanced character generation for Navy characters that resembles what is found in book 5 they replace subsector navy with reserve. Beacuse you still have iperal and planatary also.

Most Planatary Navy's will have Jump capable ships. Remember that there is no FTL communications so a planet will have some Jump capable ships to send word out that they where being attacked.

Subsector Navy / Reserve / Colonial Fleet are at a TL that can be suported by the subsector they are within. Thier largest unit is usualy of the cruiser class. Since in times of peace they are the units that do most of the patrol work within a subsector.

Imperial Navy - Most of its ships are at the highest TL present in the Imperium, and they consist mostly of ships that can fight on the line of battle & thier suport ships.

A standard Imperal Named Fleet is named after the sector in wich it operates and consits of one numbered feet per subsector ruled by the Imperium. There would also be one subsector / reserve fleet per imperial ruled subsector.

Both the Imperial Navy and reserve/subsector Navy are both raised by imperial taxs and as such are Imperial Forces.

The explinations I give for the change from CT to MT is that durring the fith frontier war are that a Subsector Duke with no Naval training personaly lead his subsector's fleet durring the war and mismanaged it badly, that another sent less ships than the requested number of vessles to the war zone, another is that sipohants & family of the subsector dukes where gived postions of authority with in subsector fleets that they shouldn't have had, IMOP the best explination is that each subsector Duke could orginize his subsector fleet in any way he chose and that many such orginizations didn't mesh well with how the imperial Navy was orginized so the Emporer imperilized the Subsector Fleets as the reserve so that both the imperial navy and reserve would both share a common orginization.

 

[Hal]

RainOfSteel asks why would someone who is naval personnel be considered to owe only 3 months service if his term is for 4 years? (I didn't feel like quoting his post and then trimming the post to a managable size - so space me

)

The answer is this:

Reserves have different meaning in different contexts. The question was - how can you have a reserve unit that, like the National Guard reserves, only owes a short time duration for service to qualify for "reservist pay" and still be able to live a civilian life. Clearly, this is not someone who is on active duty who owes 4 years of his life to the Military.

In combat, a reserve is a unit not as yet committed to battle, held in reserve so as to be fresh and unbloodied for when it faces (hopefully) weakened opponents. Otherwise, the reserve is kept to respond to the unexpected developments that threaten the entire success of the battle.

A third possible definition is a "In case of emergency, these units can be integrated within our command structure, but they are otherwise NOT part of our command structure".

So which definition of "Reserve" did they mean in the REBELLION SOURCEBOOK when they detailed fleet structure? If the third definition, then we are talking about a subsector navy that is separate from the Imperial navy. If the first definition, then we are talking about a unit that is not fully staffed except in times of emergency, and needs to remain in port for training purposes and is constrained to be near port so that its active members can get back to their civilian lives.

One thing of note is the fact that ships must be placed in ordinary if there is no reason to keep them active duty. Ships that can't be maintained due to a lack of maintenance crews/money need to be mothballed. A reserve duty ship of definition #1 is a ship that remains active (and thus needs maintenance) yet is not fully staffed enough and has what essentially is a housekeeping or life support maintaining crew.

Ultimately, what is a reserve? As one person noted, perhaps it should have been called "reinforcements" rather than reserve re to FFW.

 

[Admiral Morgan]

Hal I think a closer repesentation of the MT Imperial Navy and reserve can be drawn from the US Navy and US CoastGuard. The are seperate servivices but the US CoastGuard falls under the US Navy durring a time of war. In MT the imperial navy and reserve are two seperate services. The reserves replace the old subsectory navy. The way I looked at it is to provide a consistant force structure and orginization similar to that of the imperial Navy for when they where called to federal duty. er Imperilized.

Admiral Morgan

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Megacorps could probably get away with the same, all they'd have to do is register the "merchant" as subsidised by one of the worlds they own.

Bit tricky to explain away spinal mounts, but then I've always been a small ship heretic

It's unlikely that a merchant vessel would have a spinal point. They're uneconomical. On the other hand, warships belonging to the planetary navy of New Tukera may well possess them.

Megacorps can own battlefleets if they want to. However, they probably usually find it more profitable to have them funded by the suckers who pay tax.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Admiral Morgan:
Both the 100 ton and 50 ton bays do not hold thier listed tonage as cargo but a reduced amount. I want to say a 100 ton bay can hold 50 tons of cargo and a 50 ton bay 25 tons of cargo according to book 5.

The AHL cruisers can't lose it's bays since they are built right into the hull of the ship durring construction according to book 5. The weapons systems can be removed from the bays though.

Admiral Morgan

You are correct they aren't removed, THe weaponary was removed and the bay plated over. Supplement 5, Pg 12. So while that would mean the space would be there but it wouldn't be useful as a weapons bay anymore.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bhoins:

Well from the same Supplement 5, the Auxillarys converted from AHL class Cruisers also lost their bay weapons. (And were armed the same as the commercial version of the AHL. Since they are still owned by the Navy why plate over the bays? After all they are already there so it would be cheaper to actually retain them. Apparently the Imperial Navy would prefer to keep Bay and Spinal weapons in the combat vessels instead of on Auxillaries.

So if the Imperial Navy does it, all navies must do it?
There is no reason to plate over the bays, unless you want to make the new cargo space hold an atmosphere.
Perhaps it's due to some treaty with the Zhodani?

And if they are plated over, the space is still there to be used as a cargo hold.
Bays must still be accessible from inside the ship, so your new fifty ton cargo bay can still be loaded.

Removing the plates and rearming didn't take long though, did it?

</font>

Actually reconditioning and rearming the ships took several years. More likely than a treaty with the Zhodani is the fact that the Imperium doesn't like Fleets not under its control. Emmisary being the evidence of that. The ship while snuck through the rules was not allowed to reenter the Imperium.

Further, from Gateway Domain, and The Sydymic Outworld Cluster, The LSG has a salvaged Solomani Light Cruiser that they are hiding from the Imperial Navy because they aren't supposed to have it.

As far as New Tukera having Capital Ships in its Colonial Navy. I guess that might be possible, however I can see the Imperial Government only allowing the Nobels that it trusts to build Colonial Navies with Capital Ships. (Granted I am not saying that that trust might not be misplaced... )

I agree the 50 ton bays could be used as additional cargo bays. Though access for bulky cargo might be prohibitive. I just said they were by Imperial Regulation no longer weapon bays.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
By the way, is your reference from page 4, where it says:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> When converted to auxiliaries, all major weaponry was suppressed (removed and plated over) to comply with Imperial doctrine.

The same page that says she has

twenty-four ten-ton bays

</font>[/QUOTE]Actually I was looking at pages 12 and 13. But yes I saw that. The Supplement also can't decide if the Armed Gig is a 20ton or a 40ton small craft. And all future references to the small craft complement of an AHL have no gigs just extra fighters.

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
Actually reconditioning and rearming the ships took several years.

According to TCS it shouldn't take any more than 20 weeks per ship. Even faster if the resources are allocated - although there was no real need for this haste except during the fourth frontier war.

Perhaps the ships were converted slowly to save money, and then underwent a shakedown cruise before returning to active duty.

Two things I note:

the Bard Refuge was returned to duty in only 150 days;

the Arrival Vengeance was returned to duty ten years before its conversion was begun

I agree the 50 ton bays could be used as additional cargo bays. Though access for bulky cargo might be prohibitive. I just said they were by Imperial Regulation no longer weapon bays.

Agreed.

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
Actually I was looking at pages 12 and 13. But yes I saw that. The Supplement also can't decide if the Armed Gig is a 20ton or a 40ton small craft. And all future references to the small craft complement of an AHL have no gigs just extra fighters.

Don't you just love Traveller for its consistency - still it gives us plenty of stuff to talk about

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bhoins:
Actually reconditioning and rearming the ships took several years.

According to TCS it shouldn't take any more than 20 weeks per ship. Even faster if the resources are allocated - although there was no real need for this haste except during the fourth frontier war.

Perhaps the ships were converted slowly to save money, and then underwent a shakedown cruise before returning to active duty.

Two things I note:

the Bard Refuge was returned to duty in only 150 days;

the Arrival Vengeance was returned to duty ten years before its conversion was begun

I agree the 50 ton bays could be used as additional cargo bays. Though access for bulky cargo might be prohibitive. I just said they were by Imperial Regulation no longer weapon bays.

Agreed. </font>[/QUOTE]Crap, Did I say years, I meant months.

Aside from the -10 years, they took from just over 5 months to 4.5 years. Most around a year. The funny one I noticed, well aside from -10 years, is that Bard Enterprise and Guardian Rainbow took about the same amount of time to convert as the majority of their sisters (Just over a year appears to be average.) but they were in service during that time.