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Force Multipliers in Infantry Combat

I suspect you'd need more than a hobby telescope to get a co-ordinate lock on a satellite from the ground...

A modern day hobby telescope wouldn't be up to the task, certainly.

But you have to figure it wouldn't be that hard to get a hold of a TL12 hobby telescope, which I think would be a much more capable device.

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As for the radars used to track sniper bullets in flight, I believe the original project was referred to as Lifeguard. A friend who returned from Iraq was telling me they were testing the system out - taking a Phalanx unit and putting into a towed trailer or something and replacing the electronic guts with some iteration of Lifeguard's children (or great to the Nth grandchildren). I have no idea if this is true or not (as my friend had never actually seen it used personally and had only "heard about it" himself).
 
Oh, then they did work on it more....*shudders*

A modern day hobby telescope wouldn't be up to the task, certainly.

But you have to figure it wouldn't be that hard to get a hold of a TL12 hobby telescope, which I think would be a much more capable device.

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As for the radars used to track sniper bullets in flight, I believe the original project was referred to as Lifeguard. A friend who returned from Iraq was telling me they were testing the system out - taking a Phalanx unit and putting into a towed trailer or something and replacing the electronic guts with some iteration of Lifeguard's children (or great to the Nth grandchildren). I have no idea if this is true or not (as my friend had never actually seen it used personally and had only "heard about it" himself).
Part the First. I tend to disagree, what with all the computerization and DBs of exo-atmosphere bodies. NASA's online list of the Sats orbiting Earth right now...TL 8 can do it I think, I mean we did some good stuff out of the SDI programs.

Part the Second. From what you have relayed here then, they have truly refined the system, now if only they replace the Vulcan 20mm Gatling and throw on some MetalStorms....now that's Point Defense. :D
 
If that system works so well, why hasn't it been modified to deal with the rocket problems in Israel and Gaza? There must be a major flaw somewhere.

It's my understanding that the "rocket problems" you describe in Israel stem from ballistic rockets. Lifeguard deals in much smaller scales - a few hundred meters at most, perhaps a handful of kilometers at most - it's designed to detect a very fast moving object (a bullet), backtrack it to the firer, and saturate the area with machinegun fire or perhaps fire from grenade launchers. The technology limitation up to now has been to prevent the radar from getting false positives from ground clutter, speeding cars, and shooting from your own troops, and most of all, getting a sensor system sensitive enough to track a bullet to react to it. Note, the big weakness with the Lifeguard, obviously, is that any decent sniper will still hit his or her mark - he or she will just (hopefully) not live to shoot anyone else.

Ballistic rockets are a lot easier to deal with and the techniques for them are in are counter-battery radars which compute the trajectory back and can direct fire onto the rocket's launch-point. At least twenty years ago, the technology for missiles like the Patriot already existed to intercept such missiles in flight. However, the various groups lobbing rockets (and the Israelis) know a few things:

* If nobody lives nearby, the insurgents/terrorists (whatever you want to call them, I'm using them as an example, not to make a political statement, so choose whichever word suits you) will simply set-up the rockets ahead of time, then fire them remotely or even on a timer. It doesn't do much good if plaster an area and destroy maybe a few hundred feet of copper wire, some PVC pipe used as a tube, and an egg timer. The launching locations are pretty crude as rockets are essentially "terror weapons" (like the V-1s and V-2s during WW2) - accuracy isn't too important - as long as you fire into the city and it hits something.

* If the rockets are fired from a city, counter-battery fire isn't such a great solution. Counter-battery fire is pretty indiscriminate. If the rockets come from some apartment complex or residential area (which is where these types like to operate from), and someone splashes like nine rounds into the area - you're going to kill a bunch of civilians, and again, the actual terrorists/insurgents are probably long gone or triggering their weapons remotely.

* Shooting down rockets in flight isn't exactly the best solution - these are big rockets in most cases, like adapted rounds from obsolete Russian MLRS. As both the US and the Israelis learned during Gulf War I, the Patriots were intercepting the SCUDs. Sadly, unlike in video games and comic books whereupon when a missile is "intercepted" there's a large and colorful explosion that vaporized the missile, IRL there were still large portions of flaming "shot down" SCUD were still crashing into the cities and were causing nearly as many problems as letting the missiles simply hit (according to some sources, even more).

On a side note: Even those Lifeguard systems aren't totally perfect. I recall reading a tactic used during Beruit (before the Marine barrack bombing) where you'd get a shooter/sniper. Then you surround him with a crowd of children - usually boys ranging from their low teens to childhood. They basically cluster around the shooter as a human shield. The shooter lifts his rifle and pops a few rounds off then ducks back into his crowd. The effect of an "indiscriminate" burst from high-speed machineguns ... well, let's just say that'd be a very short one-way trip into the guide of "How NOT to win the hearts and minds of an occupied people."

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I suppose my point is this: Often, infantry force-multipliers and high tech often mean your opponents who can't field similar technologies for whatever reason (low tech level, lack of resources, lack of credits, etc.) would simply adopt lower intensity guerilla-style insurgencies, which is probably a lot of what the Imperial Army and Marines would really end up dealing with.
 
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A manpack anti-satellite missile would be very interesting - especially if they were relatively cheap to manufacture. Hobby telescopes available to amateur astronomers in the 3I would be very important to insurgents to locate satellites and orbiting starships.

Inspired by the "Crunch Gun" in TNE, it's entirely possible the 3I itself might produce plans for a relatively low-tech weapon that could hole battledress. For instance, some sort of 20mm "sniper rifle" with a length of 1.5m or something that could be deployed by a single man, but would more commonly be deployed in a two-man team. It would be manufactured at TL8+ (or something) where locally produced ammunition would give decent performance, but not enough to defeat Imperial Marine issue battledress (it was originally developed on the Marches to help insurgents fighting against the Sword Worlds or Solomani, but since then the technology and tooling have been copied by the Solomani, Zhodani, and megacorps for their own purposes).

However, TL12+ factories could produce special ammunition that could give decent performance against battledress (say, being able to get killshots at ranges of 3km and a decent chance of a wound out to 5km). Precision tripod technology and local optics tech could make it so that the "gunner" would actually be controlling the guns via a 2km long fiber-optic cable at a remote location. Several guns could be arrayed and fire be fired remotely. The Imperial Marines would of course pulverize the location, perhaps before the shots hit. But of course, as they react to that threat, another set of remote snipers might open up...

The portable 20mm gun has been around for some time as has been the Crunch gun. They are called Anti-Tank rifles. The Solothurn S-100 is a 20mm AT-gun that can be carried/operated by two man. And the Sowjets in WWII had a whole collection of "Crunch gun" lookalikes.

As for the ASAT missile, the US has one in store since the 1980s. Even tested it. Granted, this TL6/7 version needs an F15 as a carrier but give it TL8 or TL9 tech and you get something like the beast from "Go tell the Spartans" (Pournelle)
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBCVprX0WnY

Get used to seeing this deployed with a TOW gun on its back, for sure. There is already talk from other countries on development. All sorts of UAV-type stuff. It sounds like they have a power issue with running it untethered, but that can be solved by any number of ways.

I don't think we'll ever get a skynet situation unless we get to overly lazy with this stuff. There has to be the human control factor, even if its an operator on the other side of the world.

I mean, until Target aquisition/recognition gets better that is...
 
Btw...

Since we getting all into nasty real tech and future developments of said tech, have you peeps checked out SmartTruck and SmartTruck 2? Give it Gravitic Propulsion and looks it about one step from being the basis for the G-Carrier.

(funny as an aside at least to me, one of my nicknames with the [VR] is SmartTruck, in that my smart@ss, know it all and some times even snappy come back run the opponent over...or so they say it came about.)
 
The portable 20mm gun has been around for some time as has been the Crunch gun. They are called Anti-Tank rifles. The Solothurn S-100 is a 20mm AT-gun that can be carried/operated by two man. And the Sowjets in WWII had a whole collection of "Crunch gun" lookalikes.

Not having read TNE, but using CT n' Striker: (so excuse me if it's redundant)

I used Striker to work up what I called the Squad Support Gun Model-88. It's a 20mm hypervelocity gun that links to Battledress by using the sockets FGMP's do. When used the gun treats the suit as a recoil carriage / fire director. It can also be fired from a tripod/bipod/vehicle mount...but the Jump Troopers in Assault Battledress needed something as a heavy support gun so I came up with this. A railgun version might be more zoomy but I like the idea of a big, earblasting, heavy recoil shoulder-fired autocannon wielded by a battlesuit. Maybe with a 2 foot bayonet welded to the end. OK, maybe not...

The gun has an electric linkless feed that pulls rounds out of either a damper box or ammo bin. The solid fin-stabilized, APDU rounds are enough to punch through Battledress at respectable range, but the weapon's real teeth are the collapsing rounds it fires.

The collapsing rounds detonate on impact as micro-kiloton warheads in the .001 to .01 Kt range. Actual yield depends on impact velocity and the target's armor value (as a dice throw in the rules). Battledress at TL-13 + is considered IMTU to be "hard" enough for at least the lower yield detonation to happen (per Striker's armor requirements) and that has more than enough punch to get through that suit and do serious frag damage to suits nearby. When firing collapsing rounds the gun fires single rounds, when firing anything else it can fire on automatic.

The gun can also be found on pintel mounts on grav IFV's as a support weapon.

So I guess this is the ultimate "Crunch Gun".
 
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I like it, Sabredog. I designed a Striker 2cm autocannon to fire collapsing rounds (on auto :devil:) but it was a vehicle mount. I never considered a man portable battledress version - but I have now... ;)
 
My YouTube impression of a 20 mm cannon firing automatic tells me Battle Dress would have to be like a small mecha (e.g. Land Mate), just to handle the recoil.

Strength can help, but I'm thinking you still fundamentally need mass and size to handle the forces.

Different classes of Battle Dress perhaps?
 
I'd say weapons like the Rh202 (20mm aka FK20) or the 27mm Mauser could be fired from a BD. Weapon and mount are quite lightweight so maybe bracing/locking the leg-joints and using an "over the shoulder" mount on something like TNE-style "heavy" Battledress should work.

Or give it a bipod. The Solothurn S18-100 or the Lathi-39 could be fired by a single shooter from a bipod in single auto and do some 30-50mm RHA at 300m using 1930s ammo. So a BD using a bipod should work.
 
So I guess this is the ultimate "Crunch Gun".

Sort of yes, but not really.

Even in the RCES equipment guide, the Reformation Coalition actually has a superior sniper rifle against armor to a Crunch Gun. Nor is the idea of a Crunch Gun unique - as other forum members pointed out, it's not unique - it has a lineage back to various anti-tank rifles such as the RTRS-41 or Boys Rifle and so on right up to weapons like the .50 inch sniper rifles of today. The hazard of the weapon and its subsequent mystique comes from the fact that the shooter of a Crunch Gun doesn't need expensive or high-tech equipment. The rifle itself can be manufactured at a relatively low TL (I think it's TL5 or TL6) - so can be manufactured on worlds that cannot make TL12+ wonderguns and could be turned out by a skilled machinist in pretty primitive conditions. It doesn't require the user to be in compensated armor just to fire it. It has a longer range and is more accurate than a RAM grenade. All it needs is TL9+ ammo to turn it into something that's a threat to high tech battledress - ie; it can turn up on worlds where high tech troops think they're basically impervious to the local weapons short of large bore cannon.
 
I always found this to be a big hole in the rules, realism wise. Aside from modern military extrapolation of technical development, there is a certain amount of "Super-Stuff" materials that are defined in various sources, from Superdense starship materials to some interior starship doors that require super heavy damage to get thru.

I realize that to preserve game balance that it must be made possible for lower tech weapons to be able to defeat weapons systems such as BD, but realistically?

Seeing some of the jumps coming up in materials, and materials processing, the game is going to change. And so will warfare.

The Articles of War are outlined not as some humanitarian effort at all, but more of a practical reality. The Third Imperium has to have trade and trade goods in order to function economically. In order to preserve trade, it is important to maintain a high tech edge to be able to be on top of trouble when it arises.

The conflict on Xiwa in the Solomani Rim, is a perfect example. An example of what can happen to a productive planet in turmoil, before an intercession can be put into motion.

It could be interpreted as Peace thru Superior Firepower, but it is more complex than just that.

Enter the Merc op as political and military alternative to open warfare on disparate tech levels. Yes, you may be the local to get the kill hit on a BD with a RAM Grenade, but odds are, that will be the last thing you do before the Fusion guns warm up. Populations know this, and toe the line more or less. As long as Trade keeps going. If trade stops, there is a process to fixing it. At one end is Diplomacy, and at the other is Interdiction. This may seem heavy handed, but it is only as heavy handed as the Systems disrupting trade want to make it.
 
I always found this to be a big hole in the rules, realism wise. Aside from modern military extrapolation of technical development, there is a certain amount of "Super-Stuff" materials that are defined in various sources, from Superdense starship materials to some interior starship doors that require super heavy damage to get thru.

I realize that to preserve game balance that it must be made possible for lower tech weapons to be able to defeat weapons systems such as BD, but realistically?

Personally, I think that it is far less likely that BD will be able to defeat high powered rifles all the time.

The reason is simple--weight. Current ceramic armored plates capable of resisting a .30-06 bullet weigh about 7.7 lbs for 120 square inches of coverage.* To cover the entire human body (2445 sq inches on average) will require 189 lbs of weight. And that suit will not stop heavier bullets than the .30-06.

Of course, no reasonable designer would try to cover every square inch of the body's surface. Rather, the areas most likely to hit (and areas most likely to result in death if penetrated) will be protected. So a TL8 armored suit that protects from .30-06 rounds and covers the entire torso, back, face, head, arms, groin and upper thighs will weigh 48.5 lbs. Such a suit is barely wearable if a soldier is to carry anything like his standard load of gear. And it still leaves the soldier vulnerable to being wounded--the bullet may hit unarmored areas, hit on seams or other weak spots, hit at particularly effective angles, etc.

And a reasonable extrapolation of materials tech gives me no reason to assume that armor protection will somehow radically outpace penetration tech to the point that 50 lbs or less of armor will completely protect a human being from infantry rifle-class weaponry of that tech level.

Now, accepting CT/Striker/FFS's projection of armor tech, the above suit will weigh about 34 lbs at TL10-11; 29 lbs at TL 12-13 and 15 lbs at TL14+.

In that same time period, weapon penetration will improve by several orders of magnitude. For instance, ETC propulsion is projected to double the muzzle energy of a chemically propelled round. This will roughly double penetration. Gauss weapons should improve even more dramatically. APDS rounds with depleted uranium penetrators should also dramatically improve penetration.

So at best, it seems to me that armor protection will barely keep up with penetrator improvements. I think that CT kinda has this one right.

And I note that BD will have one supremely useful effect--it will seriously reduce troops' vulnerability to artillery fragments -- which is responsible for 75% of casualties in modern war.

*Note that these ceramic plates are abiout twice as strong by weight as steel.
 
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While I completely agree with tbeard1999 about likely trends in materials and armor protection, there is one thing I believe he missed, and it's something that has been part of CT since the beginning, and it may be a =wrong= thing, at that.

CT has always assumed that a suit of "combat armor" and a suit of "battledress" were the same, except for the "superstrength" aspect of the battledress. After all, the combat modifiers (or Striker armor ratings) were the same. All that extra cost for the battledress went (apparently) to letting the soldier carry more gear and to not getting tired (and the +2 mod against surprise).

Why not use that extra strength to carry more armor?

CT battledress is more like a medieval knight's suit of plate, with this teensy little extra. Maybe it should be more like the battlesuits of various anime features, or the battle armor of the Honor Harrington universe; something you climb into, not something you put on.

IMTU the Imperial Marines wear a powerarmor suit I built using FFS, and it gives twice the protection of Striker battledress, has a complete suite of electronics and sensors, a grav module, and other built-in bells and whistles. it also costs about MCr 1.2 per suit, for the cheap version. Officer and special weapons types cost a lot more.
 
I changed the Striker values to reflect my idea that BD should always be better in defensive and offensive capabilities than combat armor. Combat armor is for garrison and security troops, or for the guys who crew vehicles...Battledress and Jumpsuits are for fighting on the ground and surviving a nuclear battlefield. I've always envisioned it a fully integrated fighting suit. T'ain't just for protecting - it's also designed for killing.

Both have not only higher defensive values than combat, but include onboard medical systems to keep the trooper alive with injections of simulants, no-shock, antidotes for CBW agents should the suit be breached, and scissored iris valves in the extremities (ala, The Forever War) to prevent catastrophic loss of internal life support if in vacuum or exotic atmospheres.

For offensive capabilities the suits both have finger lasers on the right gauntlet equivelent to a TL-13 Laser Carbine,, a RAM grenade launcher on an over-the-shoulder pull down rack, and the usual sockets for datalink to personal and support weapons. The suits are able to act as recoil carriages for the SSG-88 and FGMP. Heavy Weapons Squads are equiped with tac missile launchers to fire nukes and anti-armor/infantry seeker missiles that hum around the battlefield till they find some hapless grunt to accelerate into.

The Jumpsuit increases strength by 3, and has the grav harness...the battlesuit doesn't have the grav harness. The reason is because flying infantry is an easier target to hit and eliminates one of the greatest tactical advantages of being a man on the ground - being hard to spot and hard to dig out.

As for whether or not a suit could handle a 20mm single barrel autocannon, my answer is that since the thing is supposed to be able to increase strength, weighs a hell of a lot on it's own, and exists in a science fiction universe...of course it can. From the description in the books about how you need a grav generator or BD to handle the recoil on a fusion gun I infer that those things would take care of a 20mm CPR gun.
 
Here's the description of the Terran Confederation Line Marine issue 20mm Squad Support Gun (SSG mod88):

Man portable 20mm auto-cannon used by Jump Troops an an assault gun, bunker buster, and tank breaker. It is used in combination with a ammo sled for carrying damper boxes and ammo bins. It can be shoulder fired by Battledress, but at -2 to hit unless the firer is in a Jumpsuit due to the muzzle climb when on autofire. No modifier when in single shot mode. The weapon has no integral targeting system, instead using the systems onboard the firer's battledress. The weapon has recoil dampening shocks but also uses the software integral to the firer's suit to turn the battledress into a recoil carriage. The weapon also comes equipped with bipod or tripod.

Weight: 55 kg
Ammo wt: .4kg per round (8 kg per burst of 20)
ROF = 20 or 1

The grav powered ammo sled carries 500 rounds of standard KEAP or KEAPER rounds, and 6, 3 shot magazins of collapsing rounds in a damper box.

The collapsing rounds have a yield of .001 Kt and weigh .8kg each.

The penetration of one of these rounds is (in Striker terms)
70 contact/ 70m radius of frag damage of PEN 12. That 70 contact means it's 70 points against a TL-15 Battlesuit (22 value) or Jumpsuit (30). An FGMP-14 has a PEN of 34. Either way the trooper is tuna melt.
 
The Armchair Revolutionary Chimes in.

Here's the description of the Terran Confederation Line Marine issue 20mm Squad Support Gun (SSG mod88):

Man portable 20mm auto-cannon used by Jump Troops an an assault gun, bunker buster, and tank breaker. It is used in combination with a ammo sled for carrying damper boxes and ammo bins. It can be shoulder fired by Battledress, but at -2 to hit unless the firer is in a Jumpsuit due to the muzzle climb when on autofire. No modifier when in single shot mode. The weapon has no integral targeting system, instead using the systems onboard the firer's battledress. The weapon has recoil dampening shocks but also uses the software integral to the firer's suit to turn the battledress into a recoil carriage. The weapon also comes equipped with bipod or tripod.

Weight: 55 kg
Ammo wt: .4kg per round (8 kg per burst of 20)
ROF = 20 or 1

The grav powered ammo sled carries 500 rounds of standard KEAP or KEAPER rounds, and 6, 3 shot magazins of collapsing rounds in a damper box.

The collapsing rounds have a yield of .001 Kt and weigh .8kg each.

The penetration of one of these rounds is (in Striker terms)
70 contact/ 70m radius of frag damage of PEN 12. That 70 contact means it's 70 points against a TL-15 Battlesuit (22 value) or Jumpsuit (30). An FGMP-14 has a PEN of 34. Either way the trooper is tuna melt.
So if Ivor can take this thing like he says we can then, Billii here can hook his comp into it and presto, we got a big gun, hell yea!
 
Force multipliers assuming similar tech levels are basically good comms and teamwork; you could have a bunch of guys who are great marskmen etc., individually but if they can't communicate and work together as a team, you basically have a mob.

If tech levels are not similar, the only way for the inferior tech force to win is via insurgency. The point of insurgency is not to gain a military victory, it's to gain a political or economic victory. Insurgent tactics effectively cancel out a lot of technology; heavy firepower becomes a liability when the enemy engages you at very close range in crowded conditions with a lot of civilians around; the old SPI game GRUNT dealt with this very nicely from what I heard; if the US forces killed civilians, the enemy gained victory points. Heavy handed responses tend to play into the enemy's hands. Unfortunately, modern militaries seem to be in denial about insurgencies, possibly because they're low-tech conflicts and low-tech generally equals smaller budgets.

It's basically all boils down to fighting your fight and working inside your enemy's OODA loop.
 
That bit about dissimilar tech levels is Bunk... just ask the British about the 1st Boer War.

Enough screaming zulu with spears can pin down a higher tech force until it runs out of supplies.

Insurgencies are ONE way of avoiding set peice battles and large troop concentrations for effective fighting at a tech disadvantage.

But if one has sufficient manpower willing to die, human wave attacks can usually overcome most technical monsters... Even M1A3's can be mission killed by tossing rebar and thermite down the barrel, and rebar into the tracks in the right place. And human wave attacks can do that in the right terrain.
 
But if one has sufficient manpower willing to die, human wave attacks can usually overcome most technical monsters...

That, of course, is the rub. Turns out that far fewer folks are actually willing to engage in suicidal attacks than many folks assume.

Of course, *any* force of *any* tech level can be overwhelmed if enemy forces are sufficiently numerous. But it won't happen often IMHO if the tech level difference is high.

And while human wave attacks against a higher tech foe may occasionally work, they will fail far more often. And no one can keep up such attacks indefinitely. In any case, I haven't found in the historical record that human wave assaults work particularly well, especially against a prepared opponent. Even in Korea, the Allies in Korea eventually managed to slaughter so many Chinese that even the Communist Chinese government got sick of the carnage. Japanese human wave assaults in WWII weren't terribly effective. The US forces in Mogadishu were dramatically outnumbered, yet they lost 18 dead and 75 wounded, vs. ~1000 Somalis dead and several thousand wounded.

So I don't think that insurgents fighting a technologically superior foe should count on human wave tactics to carry the day very often.

And I think I covered this before, but I think it's extremely dubious to look to 20th century insurgencies against Western democracies as a model for Traveller insurgencies. Not only is the Third Imperium *not* a democracy (and therefore far less sensitive to public opinion), news is far more controllable in the Third Imperium (and much less able to sway public opinion IMHO, because the Imperium is not a democracy and because news travels so slowly).

Personally, I'd look to German experiences fighting Soviet and Yugoslavian partisans in WWII as more useful guide to Traveller insurgencies.

In my own Commonwealth campaign, the more successful insurgencies tend to represent an asymetric threat -- i.e., they cause sufficient economic damage to make it unprofitable to fight them. Most planets with insurgencies are actually primitive aliens fighting against human-run Development Companies (similar to the British East India Company). Companies employ sepoys, stiffened with a few regular troops on loan from the Commonwealth military. The more capable insurgents understand that the humans are their for economic reasons and they attack *that*. There are a few Dien Bien Phus (and therefore a few analogs to the Tet Offensive, which destroyed the Viet Cong), but most of the time, it's all about the money.
 
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