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Foreven: Your Thoughts

Hey Everyone,

Just your friendly neighborhood 3rd party Traveller company here with a question for you. Not to long ago, Jon Brazer Enterprises signed the Foreven Free Sector Logo License. I've been pondering for a while, "What exactly should I do with it?" So I am pondering no longer and am going to take that the everyone here. What would you like to see? Some ideas I have had thus far:

  • Developing the sector one quadrant at a time,
  • A book of multiple ships from companies based in Foreven,
  • Fleshing out a few planets/companies/organizations at a time but in great detail,
  • A book of minor alien races, and
  • Fleshing out the major races (hivers, anyone?),

Do any of these interest you? Are you against any of these? Are there any others that you would like to see that are not on that list?

Before you answer, assume all of the following for the foreseeable future.

  • Mongoose Traveller rules,
  • 16-32 pages (maybe a few over, but I don't have the resources to do a 64 or 128 page supplement anytime soon),
  • Same timeline as the Spinward Marches book (no alternate histories or 1248 timeframe).
  • PDF and POD options.

So, what's your opinions?
 
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I wouldn't want to see the Sector developed quadrant by quadrant. That's a bit like a land grab of public space. ;)

But worlds one at a time, or even subsectors as part of a linked campaign, corporations and other stuff could be good.

The best possible use of this license, IMO, is to make adventures and campaigns using all the acoutrements of the 3I.

I think the best outcome would be for us to have whole campaigns worth of scenarios based in a dozen sectors worth of space, letting refs mix and match.

I think developing the sector just for the sake of it would be a mistake. The beauty of it is that it allows you to use terms like Zhodani and LSP and Ihatei and Plankwell and IISS in your products, not that you can build sectors. You can do that anyway, if you make them generic enough. :)

Worlds and subsectors lets a ref put them in his own version of Foreven, keeping it a special players reserve.

The worst outcome would be for rival OGL companies trying to claim their version of Spica is the definitive one. :eek:o:

Another good use would be corporate brochures, like LSPs sales catalogue for the space craft they offer to the Foreven market. :)
 
I think the best outcome would be for us to have whole campaigns worth of scenarios based in a dozen sectors worth of space, letting refs mix and match...

The worst outcome would be for rival OGL companies trying to claim their version of Spica is the definitive one. :eek:o:

That appears to be Mongoose's intentions with the inclusion of the entire Trojan Reaches in the Aslan sourcebook. I'm sure (okay, hopefully optimistic)we'll see Gvurrdon covered in the Vargr book.

I doubt Mongoose and Marc would let a third party declare their version of Foreven as "definitive". We here at Hell Creek intend to make it known that our version of Foreven is NOT the definitive version. If people want to play in their own version or use our products for ideas, so be it.

Sorry if this derails the thread any, but that's our stance on the whole bit. I'm interested in seeing how you develop your version of Foreven, DMcCoy.

Pax et bonum,

Dale Meier
Creative Director
Hell Creek Sanitarium
Omaha, NE
 
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I do not believe anyone has the right to claim that their version is the definitive version. Esp considering the license uses the word "official" twice, both in describing products not from this license.

EDIT: Like I said, I'm still deciding what exactly to do with it. I may just come up with a tech book saying that this ship was designed by the Vargr colony on X world or the suit is wide used by the Aslans residing in the Avalar Consulate and never get around to mapping out the sector. I'm not really sure exactly what I want to do with it yet.
 
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I don't know if you've seen this in the thread where I originally posted it, so to be on the safe side, I'll repeat it here.

As you probably know, The polity that is now known as the Avalar Consulate used to be called Die Weltbund (which ought to be Weltenbund because there are more than one world in the league). Paranoia Press detailed the rimward portion (the systems in the Beyond). PP was later officially decanonized, so there's no requirement that anything they did be taken into account. OTOH, there's no requirement that it be ignored either.

(It's possible that the Weltbund was also mentioned in some still-canonical bit of writing, but I rather doubt it).

Anyway, my idea is to reconcile the Weltbund with the Avalar Consulate. If the AC is a recent creation at the time when it's documented in Imperiallines #1 (around 1118 or so?), you can have both. Furthermore, if the change takes place during the 5th Frontier War (a Zhodani-backed coup by Avalar and its allies at a time when the Imperium was unable to counter-interfere), you can have the Weltbund in 1105, on the brink of civil war, torn by rivalry between the rimwards systems and the coreward systems, a place ripe for all sorts of covert maneuvering and other shenanigans.

I think the possibilities for drama and adventure alone is enough to make this setting desirable, but a secondary consideration is that if there has to be a 100-system interstellar state in Foreven, a neutral-leaning-towards-the-Imperium-but-concerned-not-to-offend-the-Zhodani state would have a lot less impact on the Spinward Marches than a Zhodani client state. And we all know that Foreven has had no known impact on the history of the Marches.


Hans
 
My thoughts? better off not doing Foreven, since anything you do with it is likely to rub raw against what someone else does.

I much preferred the old GDW mode of local land grant licenses. JG having a quadrant sized lot... Brothers Kieth having a portion of a sector... etc.
 
I much preferred the old GDW mode of local land grant licenses.

I'd agree. There are several sectors that I feel are perfect for development that (to my knowledge) have not been. Having said that, I am not exactly sure how interested Miller or Mongoose are in this at this point in time, especially considering that Foreven is there for free development. Perhaps when I am able to do 128page supplements on a regular basis, they might be interested. But while I am a little guy who's longest product is a 20 page character sheet, I do not believe that there is much chance of that happening.
 
Dear Folks -

Anyway, my idea is to reconcile the Weltbund with the Avalar Consulate. If the AC is a recent creation at the time when it's documented in Imperiallines #1 (around 1118 or so?), you can have both.

Hans

Hi Hans! That's pretty much exactly what I did IMTU. (Well, apart from the whole Avalar thing; I did this in 1985, so my map of Foreven looks NOTHING like the Imperiallines dot-map... ;) )

Think: Rebellion, writ small. Splintering into lots of little states (like the Islands), plenty of room for all sorts of PCs and campaign varieties, from traders to starmercs to the diplomatic corps.

(The net effect is that IMTU I will ignore almost everything anyone writes about the sector - sorry! - but I might snaffle a world or idea here and there in order to incorporate it somewhere in my version of the place...!)
 
Speaking as a publisher, the first company to bring out a complete Foreven sector book will gain a very strong commercial advantage, and could go on to spawn an entire sub-line from that one book - potentially getting other publishers to write for their Foreven, rather than their own.

Just saying :)
 
And we all know that Foreven has had no known impact on the history of the Marches.

I don't know that! If that was the case, then the Imperium shouldn't have such a strong military presence in the Five Sisters Subsector. (It cannot just be to control 2 mid-tech backwater Droyne worlds.)

I agree with You that the situation would be less problematic to explain if the Avalars were or have been more neutral, but on the other hand, there might be other reasons why the Avalars haven't been much involved in the frontier wars. (Think Spain in WWII.)
 
We know that Foreven was a conduit for Zhodani forces to their allies in the rimward end of the marches. AM:Zhodani.
 
The only thing that a company can do without rubbing against others is to simply publish plug and play UWP's and descriptions. Otherwise, your confederacy will interfere with my Hegemony and mess up Bob's campaign adventure.

I think Foreven is a really dumb idea. Local land grants would have been much cleaner.

Even better would, I realize license does not allow, involve the REST of the damn Charted Space. Deneb, Ielish, Massilia, Daibei, Delphi, Gushmege, Fornast, Antares etc. What a waste of space if no one can do anything with them...
 
I much preferred the old GDW mode of local land grant licenses. JG having a quadrant sized lot... Brothers Kieth having a portion of a sector... etc.

The industry is different these days - if there were other comnpanies around that we thought would make a real effort with their own gifted sector, we would do exactly this. . .
 
I agree with You that the situation would be less problematic to explain if the Avalars were or have been more neutral, but on the other hand, there might be other reasons why the Avalars haven't been much involved in the frontier wars. (Think Spain in WWII.)


BeRKA,

Spain hasn't been neutral for 500 years though. She was an integral part of the European alliance system before the first half of the 20th Century and a member of NATO for much of the second half of the 20th Cnetury.

As I pointed out when this topic was discussed during the T5 playtest, the Imperiallines apologists and other "overwriters" are forgetting about the time involved. Everyone always forgets about the time involved. (Then again, you have a horse in the race because some of the Foreven information used will have been developed by you so your opinion in the matter isn't exactly unbiased.)

We're talking about 500 years at the very least. The Zhodani evicted and/or Imperial colonies from the Ziafrplians and Foreven sectors prior to and during the first two Frontier Wars. The Consulate has been removing Imperial influence in the sector for at least five centuries, has set up a pro-Zhodani polity over four subsectors in size, and yet the Imperium seemingly hasn't countered all that activity off it's spinward flank.

One member of the playtest suggested a treaty akin to the Platt Amendment between the two powers. That idea immediately fails under even partial scrutiny primarily for two reasons. Fist, such a treaty would have had to last for over 500 years and in the aftermath of five Frontier Wars, it's impossible for example to believe that the Consulate would have not scrapped a Platt-like agreement after their large victory in the Third Frontier War, and, second, such a treaty would have prevented the formation of a large, pro-Consulate polity like the Avalar in the first place.

While everyone always forgets about the time, everyone usually forgets about the Darrians too. People can quibble about how much influence a large, pro-Consulate polity may have on the huge Imperium, but they can't explain away the lack of influence such a polity should have had on the Darrian Confederation.

You can frisk about offering up all sorts of lame excuses for the lack of influence; the Avalar polity is new, the Avalar are neutral towards the Darrians, the Avalar are weak, they don't have too many hi-pop worlds, or whatever other utter nonsense you hope might explain away the unexplainable. The truth of the matter, however, is that a polity over four times the size of the Darrian Confederation and only one subsector away from the Darrian Confederation should have some impact on Darrian history and policies.

Thanks to AM8 we know the deployment deployment orientation of the Darrian Confederation's Star Trigger carrying Special Branch squadrons as well as we know the targets of the USAF SAC bombers they resemble. The Branch has squadrons aimed at the Zhodani, Sword Worlds, and even the Imperium, but there's not one mention of a squadron oriented towards this alleged polity in Foreven.

I am not saying that a book covering Foreven cannot or should not be written and published. What I am saying is such a book shouldn't use the slapdash, wholly implausible, and canonically illiterate materials produced for one issue of a late-MT fanzine and repeated by well meaning hobbyists ever since. A Foreven that extends either minimal or no influence can be easily crafted IF you toss the Imperiallines material and the material it spawned onto the ash heap where they belong. What's more, this "Imperiallines-free" Foreven will be far better suited for all types of RPG play than the Imperiallines version.

You made a very poor historical analogy involving Spain during WW2. Let me suggest another, more plausible one for the Foreven Sector: The Balkans. That area that existed for centuries sandwiched between two cultures, two empires, two world views. That area whose name has become synonymous with petty squabbling states caught up in convoluted great power machinations.

Foreven as the Balkans isn't some unregarded neutral zone laying off the flank of each empire. Instead it is a swirling cockpit of diplomacy, assassinations, intelligence operations, "dirty little wars", and "politics by other means" undertaken by both empires, the smaller powers, and proxies for all in a seemingly endless effort to prevent the other side from establishing anything even remotely resembling a hegemony. There are no large or powerful polities in Foreven because neither side will allow the development of even neutral one lest they tilt towards the other camp later. Foreven can be the Great Game of Central Asia, Foreven can be the Balkans, Foreven can be interesting, Foreven can be plausible, Foreven can be better.

We can do better, much better, than the Imperiallines version and the Mongoose license has opened the door to that possibility. The Hobby should grasp the opportunity being presented to create something truly new and truly worthwhile instead of simply regurgitating the bland, ill thought out pap produced before for a quick way to reach a page count.

YM obviously and sadly Vs.


Regards,
Bill
 
We can do better, much better, than the Imperiallines version and the Mongoose license has opened the door to that possibility. The Hobby should grasp the opportunity being presented to create something truly new and truly worthwhile instead of simply regurgitating the bland, ill thought out pap produced before for a quick way to reach a page count.

With this I agree. It is time for a new ATU without all the problems from the OTU.

Other than that I find it time wasting and pointless to argue with you.
 
Tons of Good Stuff

[snip]

The Hobby should grasp the opportunity being presented to create something truly new and truly worthwhile instead of simply regurgitating the bland, ill thought out pap produced before for a quick way to reach a page count.

You hit the nail square on the head for me. Whatever I do with Foreven, I want it to be just as exciting as this.

So I take it that is one vote for a "Kick in the Balkins" (to quote Jon Stewart)?
 
With this I agree. It is time for a new ATU without all the problems from the OTU.


BeRKA,

And those problems with the OTU include the Imperiallines Foreven material and all the hobbyist material based on it, right?

Other than that I find it time wasting and pointless to argue with you.

Oh sure, take your Foreven and go home... ;)

I bring up specific fundamental problems with the Imperiallines version of Foreven, but that is too time wasting and pointless for you to "argue" over. And that opinion has nothing to do with the fact that your version of Foreven, which is derived in a large part from the Imperiallines' version, has been mentioned by name as being part of the soon-to-be-published Foreven, right?

You may say you want an ATU or a better version of the OTU, but what you actually want is your version of the OTU. Not because it's better, mind you, and not because it's plausible and not because it makes any sense, but because it's your version and that's all that matters. Isn't it?

I explained a few months ago why I cannot and will not work for publication and this is one of the reasons why. You can't have a dog in the hunt or a horse in the race if you're going to review and critique anything dispassionately.


Regards,
Bill
 
You may say you want an ATU or a better version of the OTU, but what you actually want is your version of the OTU. Not because it's better, mind you, and not because it's plausible and not because it makes any sense, but because it's your version and that's all that matters. Isn't it?

No!

As I said, it is pointless to argue with you.
 
No! As I said, it is pointless to argue with you.


BeRKA,

Then don't argue with me then. ;) Instead, state your case for the others reading this thread.

Jon Blazer started this thread and he's an honest to ghu Traveller writer/publisher who is producing and selling materials as we type. Not vaporware mind you, but materials for sale right now.

Explain to him why the Avalar Consulate should be part of any Foreven materials he produces. Explain why it or it's precursors has never influenced the Marches, Imperium, or Darrians in any manner whatsoever. Explain why a Spain WW2 analogy is better and will provide more and different adventuring possibilities than a Balkans analogy.

It's pointless to try and change my mind, but what about everyone else? How about making to the case for Imperiallines' version of Foreven? Or the case for versions derived from the Imperiallines' materials?

I've brought up what I feel to be are specific problems with the Imperiallines' version. Why don't you explain to everyone else why, in your opinion, those problems aren't really problems at all?


Regards,
Bill
 
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