Foreven: Your Thoughts

[Vargas]

The Imperiallines Foreven article suffered from too many conflicting requirements and wound up being designed by committee. It was initially pitched as a short article, because Imperiallines had a limited page count, it was being given away for free by GDW, and the intent was to sketch in "the edges of the canvas" so as not to hamper referees. The idea was to carve out a preserve at a time when everybody and his Vargr was attempting to lay claim to anywhere they could get their hands on. (The operative rule was that if you could get something into print, it was then canon). Ideally the only two worlds which would be mentioned were the ones from the Chamax adventures.

The intent changed when someone insisted on including the two governments; they didn't want to invalidate the work published by someone or other in a relatively obscure magazine or some such. In order to support this material, some potted history was ginned up to support it. Except that because of the limited number of available pages and the lingering shade of a mandate to not hamstring refs, details were minimized and not a lot of effort was put into rationalizing it with the rest of canon.

Personally I thought the idea of Foreven as a ref preserve was great but when I read the final product I was greatly disappointed.

 

[BeRKA]

Explain to him why the Avalar Consulate should be part of any Foreven materials he produces.

If Jon Brazer (or any other publisher) asks me, I will give them an answer why I think so.

I will not post anything here, since it will just give you a new reason to attack my answers. I don't have time for any pointless arguing.

 

[dmccoy1693]

I gotta say, this thread so far is a gold mine of ideas. I'm not committed yet to doing sector details, but if I do, I'll be turning to this thread for ideas. Any other concepts people would like worked in or addressed?

Any other types of products they would like to see?

Edit:

If Jon Brazer (or any other publisher) asks me, I will give them an answer why I think so.

Consider me officially asking for your opinion. If you do not want to share in public, send me a pm and we can talk over email.

 

[robject]

"What exactly should I do with it?"

My suggestion is "do what interests you the most", because I think that's most likely to fetch your best effort.

Regarding a specifically Foreven-based effort:

• If you like developing subsectors best, then pitch a subsector or quadrant resource.
• If you like designing starships or describing battles, then pitch a fleet resource.
• If you like developing a few individual worlds and their contents, then pitch a corporate sourcebook (or campaign).
• If you like aliens, then pitch an alien sourcebook.

 

[dmccoy1693]

My suggestion is "do what interests you the most", because I think that's most likely to fetch your best effort.

Regarding a specifically Foreven-based effort:

• If you like developing subsectors best, then pitch a subsector or quadrant resource.
• If you like designing starships or describing battles, then pitch a fleet resource.
• If you like developing a few individual worlds and their contents, then pitch a corporate sourcebook (or campaign).
• If you like aliens, then pitch an alien sourcebook.

That's the problem. I LOVE THEM ALL! I get absolutely rapturous about a setting to play in, I'll send hours thinking about what kind of mission I could use this ship or that ship for, I enjoy thinking of how I can make the next "Blue Sun" corp that makes everything from coffee to genetically enhanced humans, and I become enthralled with delving into an alien culture, coming up with something other than "elves in space." *bleh*

That's why I mentioned those. But what I don't know is if anyone else is interested in those. Hense why I am asking. If no one wants any more ships but instead wants to have a new megacorp to scare their players with, why not give the customer exactly what they want. I'll have fun along the way. Same is true with all the others.

 

[Whipsnade]

If Jon Brazer (or any other publisher) asks me, I will give them an answer why I think so.

BeRKA,

Well, he's asked you so my job here is done!

I will not post anything here, since it will just give you a new reason to attack my answers.

Attack? Or explain logically why they don't work? There's quite a difference between the two.

I don't have time for any pointless arguing.

Yeah, you've no time to answer me so you spend time repeatedly answering me to tell me you've no time to answer me. Nice try.

Did you notice that, except for you who has a vested interest in it, not one person here regards the Imperiallines' version of Foreven as workable or even desirable? Put your ego and greed for writing credits aside for a moment and think. Examine the Imperiallines materials and the materials derived from them dispassionately.

We as a Hobby are always grousing about the many problems with the OTU. have a chance to fix actually something here, but we may lose that chance due to a combination of expediency and ego. The Imperiallines' material does not work. You cannot explain how it can work no matter how many handwaves you apply or how hard you spin it. What's more, you're aware of this but cannot bring yourself to admit it because of the materials you've personally derived from Imperiallines, materials that may have a chance of being published.

It's time to do the right thing for Traveller and not just the right thing for you.


Regards,
Bill

 

[aramis]

BeRKA: STOP THE TROLLING.

Bill: No poking the trolls.

 

[Klaus]

That's the problem. I LOVE THEM ALL! I get absolutely rapturous about a setting to play in, I'll send hours thinking about what kind of mission I could use this ship or that ship for, I enjoy thinking of how I can make the next "Blue Sun" corp that makes everything from coffee to genetically enhanced humans, and I become enthralled with delving into an alien culture, coming up with something other than "elves in space." *bleh*

That's why I mentioned those. But what I don't know is if anyone else is interested in those. Hense why I am asking. If no one wants any more ships but instead wants to have a new megacorp to scare their players with, why not give the customer exactly what they want. I'll have fun along the way. Same is true with all the others.

Descriptions of corps and other institutions would be great. Anything of the underwritten aspects of the OTU, or fresh stuff. I think ships and worlds will be quite well serviced by everyone, but what this game really needs is adventures. Even the shortest adventures need all the setting stuff you might want to do, and they include kit and deckplans and what not. An episodic campaign would be a good model for pdf products. Or a book of incidents, encounters and scenes that can be used to slot into a longer running adventure.

One thing Traveller really needs is a "monster manual" - not just critters, tho mostly, but the odd battle bot, genetech animal, and npc cut out.

Jon Brazer's stuff is a great start there, but the more the merrier . Let's have MGT stats for the Chamax, and all other types of crazy.

Anything that a ref can grab when he's stuck to put in the game with near to no prep.

I think really the Foreven license is not about developing a sector, but about allowing third parties to make stuff that feels OTU.

 

[robject]

Did you notice that, except for you who has a vested interest in it, not one person here regards the Imperiallines' version of Foreven as workable or even desirable?

We're not a valid sample, Bill. Don McKinney regards Imperiallines as canonical.

 

[MongooseMatt]

I think really the Foreven license is not about developing a sector, but about allowing third parties to make stuff that feels OTU.

That is certainly a big part of it. However, as I am always saying, the first publisher to put a Marches-style Foreven book out there will have a big commercial advantage. . .

 

[Whipsnade]

We're not a valid sample, Bill. Don McKinney regards Imperiallines as canonical.

Robject,

Don't forget, "canonical" doesn't necessarily equate "good", "plausible", or "internally consistent".

Jump torpedoes are "canonical", Capital controlling the only crossing in the Rift for thousands of parsecs is "canonical", Egryn and Pax Rulin being unknown to Imperial citizens despite the Imperium being next door to them for 1000 years is "canonical", and the Kinunir Warrant is "canonical". There dozens of examples of things that are "canonical" and that are also deliberately ignored or have been deliberately over-written because they do not fit the OTU.

Imperiallines' version of Foreven, especially the Avalar Consulate, is just another example. It does not fit and it cannot be made to fit with slathering a ludicrous amount of handwaves, tortured analogies, and just plain wishful thinking.

We've a chance to fix things here. Are we going to even try? Or are we going to be making the same explanations a decade from now to someone raising the same concerns that have been raised for years about how we failed yet again? How will our tale of expediency and egotism once again trumping plausibility and internally consistency be received?


Regards,
Bill

P.S. Is that sole Imperiallines fanzine issue part of the MT CD-ROM?

 

[DonM]

P.S. Is that sole Imperiallines fanzine issue part of the MT CD-ROM?

Yes. It's part of the Astrogator's Guide to the Diaspora Sector pdf.

And while I do consider Imperiallines canonical, I actually consider Foreven as presented in "The Imperium Staple" much more interesting.

 

[Vargas]

We've a chance to fix things here. Are we going to even try? Or are we going to be making the same explanations a decade from now to someone raising the same concerns that have been raised for years about how we failed yet again? How will our tale of expediency and egotism once again trumping plausibility and internally consistency be received?

With all due respect Bill and recognizing that your passion for the subject is immense, is Foreven really worth all this? I just dug out an old copy of the Imperiallines article and it contained far less information than I remembered; we’re talking a page and a half with a full page dot map. (The potted history I heard about must have never made it into the actual article and so I need to retract some of my statements posted earlier). It seems like an awful lot of angst and acrimony over very little actual content written almost twenty years ago. Foreven was meant to be defined by the end user, so it seems antithetical to call for it to be “fixed”, which implies that there must be some set of parameters which everyone must stay within.

I make these comments because I was greatly disturbed by the level of vitriol which accompanied the early playtest releases of MGT. I saw a lot of, to me, pointless infighting back in the MT and TNE days between people taking a “my way or the highway” position. One of the most oft quoted reasons I’ve seen for people abandoning Traveller is because the background took over the game. I think Traveller, whatever the version, gets hurt in the end because of an insistence on staying within the lines when what’s actually desired is more flexibility. I don’t advocate total anarchy but I personally would like to see a lighter touch taken.

Thanks for listening.

 

[dmccoy1693]

Gentlemen,

As interesting as I find this discussion about Foreven canon, I'd prefer to not derail this thread. To help with moving on, allow me to share some of my thoughts. If I were to do a Foreven Sector Book, I'd consider certain things sacred and will not modify much (if at all). All of those things are in the Foreven Sector Guide in Mongoose's Developer's pack. I plan to hold true to the general spirit of the Avalar Consulate (as presented in the Traveller Wiki), but modifications will be present to make it a more dynamic and engaging place for players and refs. TravellerMap.com is a wonderful starting point when coming up with a map of the sector, but it is not a good ending point. I promise to hold nation boundaries where they enter and depart the sector intact; beyond that, I make no promises. Die Weltbund (aka the Confederation of Worlds) and some kind of Darrian influence (or reasons for the lack) will be apart of it, since they were requested.

Any other thoughts, additions, quibbles, etc?

 

[robject]

With all due respect Bill and recognizing that your passion for the subject is immense, is Foreven really worth all this? [...] Foreven was meant to be defined by the end user, so it seems antithetical to call for it to be “fixed”, which implies that there must be some set of parameters which everyone must stay within.

I agree. We should remain constructive with our thoughts, for the sake of this guy:

Gentlemen,

As interesting as I find this discussion about Foreven canon, I'd prefer to not derail this thread. [...] If I were to do a Foreven Sector Book, I'd consider certain things sacred and will not modify much (if at all).

Dr. Mccoy:

I think if you do a good job, then it doesn't matter how closely you align with any particular view: people will use it. Conversely, I think it's not important that you stick closely with what's printed in the Mongoose Accords (though there might be a requirement to do so).

 

[Hyphen]

Dear Folks -

Well, Jon, it looks like you've stirred up a hornet's nest here.

Remember that you can never please all the people, all the time. Or as SJ is purported to have said:
"Teach a man to play Settlers of Catan and he'll complain for an hour. Teach him to play Traveller and he'll complain for the rest of his life."

I'm glad Don spoke up; I know he's one of the "Keepers of the Canon" these days, but he's never given me the impression that he is *automatically* opposed to changes. After all, as Bill points out, a bunch of stuff has already been ret-conned (IRIS being the cleanest & neatest example, at least according to Penguin Boy).

I think that since Foreven was designated a "referee's haven", de-canonising the Imperiallines article is the least of your worries. The main issue will be stepping on the toes of everyone who has ever written anything IMTU about Foreven. I believe the term is "Gregging".

For example, there's that Dyson sphere I put in, that emits enough radiant heat to fool all casual observers into thinking it's a red giant... (ahem) actually the players haven't FOUND that one yet...

(Too big? Too non-canon? Hey, I still use the original versions of The Beyond & Vanguard Reaches. Remember, the ones with the ringworld??!! Hey, I even placed Thieves World in my version of Far Frontiers, and realised - when I bought Vanguard Reaches - it was only 6 hexes from where *they* had placed it... talk about freaky.)

I think Don's point about going with what is "interesting" is better than religiously sticking to "canon", esp. when the "canon" is paper-thin.

To partly answer Bill, the meta-game reason the place never appears to have influenced Marches politics is: it didn't fit on an A4 page!

That is, it is like the original Witch-World - nothing "off-the-Spinward Marches-map" existed! (Although note that Andra Norton addressed this meta-issue in later books in the series.)

Now all that is needed is a reasonable explanation of how/why in in-game terms. Jon, here's a thought: a few years ago now, Delphi Sector was fleshed out by a bunch of fans working together of a period of time. I saved some of the very early beginnings on my site (look under "The Delphi Project") but there was heaps more stuff done than that - you will have to search the 'Net for it, however. Maybe Hans - chief historian - can help. James Maliszewski was the project co-ordinator.

It eventually petered out, but not before heaps of work was done on the sector's history, astrography, etc etc.

Something like this may be a way to allow different peole to bring in their own, existing ideas for the sector. You will need to be a co-ordinator, however, and either discard or somehow meld opposing ideas together (and there WILL be opposing ideas, believe me!) OTOH, you can allow a thread to run and thrash out as much of the problems as possible, then pick out the wheat that's shaken out at the end.

 

[dmccoy1693]

I think if you do a good job, then it doesn't matter how closely you align with any particular view: people will use it. Conversely, I think it's not important that you stick closely with what's printed in the Mongoose Accords (though there might be a requirement to do so).

There's no "requirement" to do anything (save keep the Foreven sector itself in its location on the map). Even the information presented by Mongoose is merely a suggestion. Having said that, I would like to have any project I do dovetail seamlessly with the existing setting. Mongoose's information is minimal. There's like 1 page of information, 5 planets with UWPs and any additional information, and a map of where stars happen to be. That's about it.

 

[dmccoy1693]

Well, Jon, it looks like you've stirred up a hornet's nest here.

But that's half the fun of this place! :smirk:

"Teach a man to play Settlers of Catan and he'll complain for an hour. Teach him to play Traveller and he'll complain for the rest of his life."

As the kids say, QFT.

 

[DonM]

I'm glad Don spoke up; I know he's one of the "Keepers of the Canon" these days, but he's never given me the impression that he is *automatically* opposed to changes. After all, as Bill points out, a bunch of stuff has already been ret-conned (IRIS being the cleanest & neatest example, at least according to Penguin Boy).

I'm honored and terrified by your statement... I know what my expectations would be of someone in that role.

(Too big? Too non-canon? Hey, I still use the original versions of The Beyond & Vanguard Reaches. Remember, the ones with the ringworld??!! Hey, I even placed Thieves World in my version of Far Frontiers, and realised - when I bought Vanguard Reaches - it was only 6 hexes from where *they* had placed it... talk about freaky.)

Actually, canonically, Thieves' World is on Trin, in the Spinward Marches. And it's in print that way by Marc Miller, from 1981.

I think Don's point about going with what is "interesting" is better than religiously sticking to "canon", esp. when the "canon" is paper-thin.

Canon is ephemeral. What's important is the campaign your friends are in.

 

[Appelcline]

My request would be, "Work with the Hell Creek people", so that we readers& players get twice as much material about a coherent sector (and you both get our $$$s) rather than having to choose between two potentially good versions (and only one of you getting our $$$s long-term).