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Foreven: Your Thoughts

Descriptions of corps and other institutions would be great. Anything of the underwritten aspects of the OTU, or fresh stuff.

Definitely. This is something that I think has not been fully developed. We have thousands of planets and cultures, millions of conflicts and yet we don’t have good write-ups for political parties, violent extremists, criminal organizations, pirate fleets, smuggler networks, bounty hunter guilds, relief organizations, one-issue protest groups, religious cults (violent and peaceful) etc.

I don't even see why this would have to be located in Foreven. It could be generic Imperium without any trouble.
 
A bit of a side topic but...

...
I don't even see why this would have to be located in Foreven. It could be generic Imperium without any trouble.

I may be misunderstanding the whole license issue but as I understand it, to be OTU (use OTU stuff) it has to be set in Foreven or be published by/through Mongoose.

To publish under the rules as I understood it you can do generic (no mention of any Traveller trope, which is darned hard to do and still appeal to Traveller) or you can do OTU in Foreven (which is easy the way it's set up since apparently anything goes).

Which immediately struck me as (can't say it more politely) stupid. Not that the idea of a fan publishing aid is stupid, but I can easily see (and think I've already seen some thoughts towards) people publishing any kind of nonsense and saying it's "in Foreven" so they can do it. Stuff like Kkree in Foreven* or whatever. Stuff that makes no sense in Foreven but because it's a OTU trope that they want to put their mark on without going through Mongoose for whatever reason, they just have to plonk it down in Foreven and they're golden.

* unless there really are Kkree in Foreven, but maybe you get the point

Like I say, maybe I've got the license issue incorrect, or maybe it's changed, but the way it is (or was, or I understood it) Foreven just becomes the clutter drawer of Traveller for fan OTU stuff and that would be a shame.
 
I may be misunderstanding the whole license issue but as I understand it, to be OTU (use OTU stuff) it has to be set in Foreven or be published by/through Mongoose.

Yes and no. Yes you got it right. Nail on the head. No in that Mongoose isn't going to be handing out licenses to the OTU like candy. At my size, I can't get one. Simple as that. So my choices are for the Kree (or any non-native Foreven race) is to either do it in Foreven or don't do them. Since Mongoose appears to be going through the setting outward from the Spinward Marches, its going to take them a considerable amount of time to get to the Kree and the Hivers. I imagine there are players that would like as much detail as the Aslan.

Am I going to do that? Depends on public outcry. I haven't heard any clamoring for those books so I am not inclined to do them. What I am hearing is 1) Setting book and 2) Organizations. Unless people speak up to the contrary, I'm going to be focusing mostly these.
 
Yep, I think Mongoose (rightly so) will be doling out OTU publishing miserly. More a matter of "Don't call us, we'll call you." I'd guess. Still, keep putting stuff out there and you may get that call D. McCoy :)

I'd find it hard to blame anyone for going the Foreven route to do something they really wanted to, even if it was out of place there. Hard to blame, but not easy to accept.

I like the idea of an organizations book. A sort of Fortune 500 of Foreven, done right. With plot hooks, notables that would operate on a PC level, that sort of thing. Something open enough to plonk into other settings with a little filing of the serial numbers would make it a even better.

I think you've got a fair plan of action and list of desires :)
 
Posted elsewhere...but sometimes duplication is good...

A Sector Map that fits into Mongoose map of Chartered Space. A sourcebook akin to the Spinward Marches Campaign thus something that gets us to know the powers that be and a loosely linked adventures that can flush out some of the planetary data (perhaps dealing with the Chamax - talk with Flynn). Stellar data. And, I would really like to see is the hinting of alien races that could be uber realistic and thus preserving the mystery of their origin & cultures, as a way of injecting more mystery back into Traveller.
 
Stuff has only nominally to be set in Foreven. A para or even just a sentence, like: "In Foreven, LSP has a major presence, with facilities all over the rimward/trailing quadrant..."

The OGL allows you to make generic stuff; that can, and probably will, be stuff with the names filed off that can be easily dropped into the OTU. All Foreven does is allow you to do that without changing the names to protect the innocent.

It does seem an awkward proviso at first, that MGT OTU stuff has to be set in Foreven, but I think it is actually a quite clever way to let folk play in the OTU while Mongoose still retains overall control of every other sector.

So so what if someone puts K'kree into Foreven? :)
 
Foreven was meant to be defined by the end user...


Vargas,

Yes, Foreven was meant to be defined by the end user.

Then the Imperiallines fanzine showed up with it's dot map and polity borders to put an end to many users' versions of Foreven.

... so it seems antithetical to call for it to be “fixed”, which implies that there must be some set of parameters which everyone must stay within.

By "fixed" I am proposing that we remove the parameters put in place by the Imperiallines fanzine. I want to "fix" - as in to repair or mend - Foreven by removing the "fix' - as in to settle definitely or put into permanent form - Imperiallines imposed.

I want Foreven to return to it's protean state. I want the only parameters set down officially for Foreven to be the borders of the sector itself.

Does this mean that Mongoose can't provide materials set in the Foreven Sector? Not in the slightest. All that is required is a little sleight of hand and creativity.

Mongoose can set materials in Foreven in the same manner hundreds of swashbuckling, pulp, and other adventures were regularly set in the Balkans, Africa, or South America. They can easily describe adventures set in pocket empires, lost worlds, small wars, revolutions, coups, espionage, and all the rest if they remember to think small and remain geographically vague.

Thinking small isn't a matter of scaling back the fun and consequences faced by the players. It's more a matter of not always roping in the Zhodani, Imperium, Heirate, Droyne, and all the other major players at the drop of a hat. Far too many adventures are designed to "Shake the foundations of the Fill-In-The-Blank Empire" or to "Have Dire Galactic Consequences". Both are nothing but lazy writing. You can challenge the players without putting the survival of the Third Imperium at stake every single time and far too many RPG writers never truly understand that.

A certain vagueness of location is easily achieved too and can be done without spoiling an adventure one whit. We all know that Ruritania and Graustark are somewhere in the Balkans or eastern Europe, but we don't need to know their longitude and latitude to enjoy the many adventures set there. Similarly, we all know King Soloman's Mines and Kukuanaland is somewhere north of the Kalukawe River in Rhodesia, but again we don't need GPS readings to follow Umbopa's trek to claim his rightful throne.

Mongoose can easily set their Ruritanias, Graustarks, Kukuanalands, Klopstokias, and so on IN Foreven without actually stating WHERE EXACTLY IN Foreven they all happen to be. In this manner, Mongoose would add to the thirty-plus year old kaleidoscope that is the Hobby's myriad versions of Foreven without destroying those same versions.

As a GM, I can easily set down a small, geographically vague adventure published for Foreven in MTU's Foreven and, because I can do so easily, I'll be more likely to buy and use such an adventure too.

Here's a rough analogy of what I'm driving at. There are two ways you can cover a wall; with a tapestry or a coat of paint. Far too few Traveller authors - or RPG authors for that matter - are content to add a thread to a tapestry. They rather just pull out the paint gun and spray a fresh coat over anything and everything.

This is where the expediency and the egotism I wrote about earlier come into play. It's easier and faster just to slosh paint over the whole thing and, when you're the one choosing the paint, you usually think it looks better no matter what you've managed to destroy.

So, again, we've a unique chance to "unfix" Foreven and actually do the sector right. Whether we as a Hobby grasp this chance, or just follow the same old path of expedience and egotism, remains to be seen.


Regards,
Bill
 
My thoughts are simple.

What part of Referee's Reserve don't you understand?

I would not purchase it under any circumstances.
 
Dear Folks -

...remember to think small and remain geographically vague.

...and thus mirroring most early JTAS adventures, which usually started out along the lines of:

"The player's ship is under going repairs on Planet Fred (UPP: something-that-fits-the-scenario), when suddenly..."

;-)

(BTW, this is exactly the way to bring in ideas from multiple players without having to worry as much* as you would with a more rigid approach.

*You still have to worry about obvious inconsistencies, of course. "What do you mean there's a cavern with a huge red dragon? The corridor we just walked down - the only way in - was only 5' wide!!!")

;)
 
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A bit of topic drift but one I had to comment on...

...*You still have to worry about obvious inconsistencies, of course. "What do you mean there's a cavern with a huge red dragon? The corridor we just walked down - the only way in - was only 5' wide!!!")

;)

Yep, 5' wide. Just big enough to roll a red dragon egg down...

...and plenty big enough for food to deliver itself. Fresh Adventurer mmm :devil:

;)
 
There's no "requirement" to do anything (save keep the Foreven sector itself in its location on the map). Even the information presented by Mongoose is merely a suggestion. Having said that, I would like to have any project I do dovetail seamlessly with the existing setting. Mongoose's information is minimal. There's like 1 page of information, 5 planets with UWPs and any additional information, and a map of where stars happen to be. That's about it.

My preference, which by the way doesn't necessarily coincide with anyone else's, would be to see an adventure set in the Reidain Trace (that line of worlds leading from Alenzar to the other end of the subsector, said to be a lucrative trade route), and a 3-page-max (including a basic world map) library data entry for each of the worlds there (something like those found in the classic adventures).

I'd prefer this subsector to be a true frontier, where every world stands on its own; corporations are system-based and fierce; tech levels are low (an even distribution from TL 5 to TL 10, and none above that); cooperation is difficult to say the least; and the only reasonably "safe" region to be the Imperial Scout base on Hollis.
 
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*You still have to worry about obvious inconsistencies, of course. "What do you mean there's a cavern with a huge red dragon? The corridor we just walked down - the only way in - was only 5' wide!!!")


Hyphen,

As I wrote, remembering to keep things "small" would preclude the existence of any "dragons" in the Foreven "dungeon". ;)


Regards,
Bill
 
Did you notice that, except for you who has a vested interest in it, not one person here regards the Imperiallines' version of Foreven as workable or even desirable?
Umm... that's not true, Bill. Since the Imperiallines' version merely state that there is an Avalar Consulate in 1118 (or whenever Imperiallines #1, corresponds to) but not (AFAIK) when it arose, I've suggested that any problems having an Avalar Consulate up through the history of the Spinward Marches would cause can be avoided by making the Consulate a very recent creation. I've further suggested that putting the date for the rise of the Avalar Consulate somewhere during the 5th Frontier War would work out very nicely.

And unless and until someone explains to me the flaws of that concept, I'm going to continue to regard the Imperiallines' version of Foreven as workable. What's wrong with it?


Hanas
 
One thing Traveller really needs is a "monster manual" - not just critters, tho mostly, but the odd battle bot, genetech animal, and npc cut out.
Something I've long thought would be immensely useful is a thorough description of 'Sphere Ubiquitus' (someone with knowledge of Latin please correct me -- it's supposed to mean "The Ubiquitous Biosphere") - the biosphere that Terran taxonomers noticed had been distributed even wider than Sphere Terra by the Ancients and which eventually proved to be the one belonging to the Droyne homeworld. Just as hundreds of worlds were seeded with Terran species, surely even more worlds were seeded with Eskaloytan species (in some cases mixed on the same world). So if someone were to write up the Hissayt, the Emissyob, the Ayvaylk, the Bestoy, the Nebbay, the Hayyarn[*], and all the other plants and animals of Eskaloyt, they can be used as effectively indigenous species anywhere in Charted Space and beyond.
[*] Not canonical. A long time ago I worked out the composition of the Ancient coyn set (the one found in 300,000 year old Ancient sites as opposed to the ones found on the worlds Grandfather messed with 70,000 years ago (or was it 75,000?). One set of six coyns that I came up with (the ones eliminated to make room for the new coyns Grandfather introduced) were six prey animals (used by pre-Ancient Droyne to perform hunt magic). I think I came up with short one-paragraph descriptions of them, but I can't locate them any more.​
Something like that is far beyond my competences, so I freely donate the idea to anyone who wants to run with it.


Hans
 
Umm... that's not true, Bill. Since the Imperiallines' version merely state that there is an Avalar Consulate in 1118 (or whenever Imperiallines #1, corresponds to) but not (AFAIK) when it arose, I've suggested that any problems having an Avalar Consulate up through the history of the Spinward Marches would cause can be avoided by making the Consulate a very recent creation. I've further suggested that putting the date for the rise of the Avalar Consulate somewhere during the 5th Frontier War would work out very nicely.


Hans,

So, the pro-Zhodani Avalar Consulate coalesced or arose some time during or slightly after the Fifth Frontier War? Is that your suggested explanation?

And unless and until someone explains to me the flaws of that concept, I'm going to continue to regard the Imperiallines' version of Foreven as workable. What's wrong with it?

I'm sure we've talked about it, either in the forums or privately.

What's wrong with your "Avalar Consualte Is New" handwave? Plausible realpolitik concerns primarily.

Let's look at the post-war record. As a result of winning the Fifth Frontier War, the Third Imperium was able to, among other things:

- Stabilize its borders with the Zhondani Consulate.
- Maintain the condominium status of Esalin.
- Confirm in power the pro-Imperial government of the Arden Confederacy which had so recently just staged a coup.
- Split the Sword Worlds Confederation into a rump and puppet states.
- Occupy the Border Worlds puppet state they'd created.
- Confirm the Darrian Confederation's seizure of the Entropic Worlds.

Victory allowed the Third Imperium to do all that and more, yet you want us to believe the Imperium would then acquiesce to the continued existence and/or recent founding of pro-Zhodani polity in Foreven which is over four times the size of the Five Sisters' Subsector and the Imperial-allied Darrian Confederation and only one subsector away from the same? The Zhodani are going to be allowed to lose the war in the Jewell, Vilis, and Sword World subsectors but win it in Foreven? That the Zhodani will be allowed to replace their lost Arden and Sword Worlds minor allies with an even larger one in Foreven?

Do you really want us to believe that Norris and the rest of the Imperial leadership in the Spinward Marches are that stupid?


Regards,
Bill
 
One of the most oft quoted reasons I’ve seen for people abandoning Traveller is because the background took over the game.
Whereas the sole reason I stayed with Traveller was the emergence of a semi-coherent background. Even with all its flaws, the Traveller canon is still an amazing resource.

I think Traveller, whatever the version, gets hurt in the end because of an insistence on staying within the lines when what’s actually desired is more flexibility. I don’t advocate total anarchy but I personally would like to see a lighter touch taken.
A lighter touch taken by who? It may not be said often enough to register with the people who deplore the heavy hand, but no one has ever demanded that any referee stick to the canonical background. All that we hope and pray for is that those who publish official additions to the background don't mess up what their predecessors created (Oh, and if they'd fix the messes their predecessors made, that would be nice too ;))

Every referee is free to ignore anything he doesn't like for his own game, no matter how canonical it may be. It just means he'll find material that relies on those bits of less use; that's all.


Hans
 
Actually, canonically, Thieves' World is on Trin, in the Spinward Marches. And it's in print that way by Marc Miller, from 1981.
And I wrote an article for JTAS Online that developed that idea. Sadly, it was published as a Variant for no reason I could figure.


Hans
 
We know that Foreven was a conduit for Zhodani forces to their allies in the rimward end of the marches. AM:Zhodani.
Sadly, Zhodani is one of the lacunae in my collection. Does it say anything about the magnitude of the supplies and forces that the Zhodani funnelled into the Trojan Reach? I concede that having a client state covering the length of Foreven would improve the logistics of moving stuff through Foreven immensely, but is there any reason to suppose that the supplies you mention amounted to anything more than a token show of support? Any evidence that the sheer magnitude of the forces moved through foreven require a Zhodani client state to explain.

Also, if the Zhodani support Avalar in taking over the Weltbund early in the war, the forces mentioned in Zhodani could have been moved through Foreven after that event.



Hans
 
rancke said:
And we all know that Foreven has had no known impact on the history of the Marches.
I don't know that! If that was the case, then the Imperium shouldn't have such a strong military presence in the Five Sisters Subsector. (It cannot just be to control 2 mid-tech backwater Droyne worlds.)
How strong is the Imperium's military presence in Five Sisters? Do you have any canonical figures (except for the peacetime guard kept on Andor and Candory)? For all we know it's a couple of obsolescent battleships and an understrength CruRon. Or it could be more. AFAIK there's no canonical data on the subject.

The Imperium could be in Five Sisters because half a dozen worlds joined back in the 7th Century. Nothing more is needed to explain their presence.


Hans
 
So, the pro-Zhodani Avalar Consulate coalesced or arose some time during or slightly after the Fifth Frontier War? Is that your suggested explanation?
That's the idea I've been trying to convey, yes.

What's wrong with your "Avalar Consualte Is New" handwave? Plausible realpolitik concerns primarily.

Let's look at the post-war record. As a result of winning the Fifth Frontier War, the Third Imperium was able to, among other things:

- Stabilize its borders with the Zhondani Consulate.
- Maintain the condominium status of Esalin.
- Confirm in power the pro-Imperial government of the Arden Confederacy which had so recently just staged a coup.
- Split the Sword Worlds Confederation into a rump and puppet states.
- Occupy the Border Worlds puppet state they'd created.
- Confirm the Darrian Confederation's seizure of the Entropic Worlds.
And the Imperium needed units to secure each and every one of those achievements. You're not going to dispute that, I hope?

Victory allowed the Third Imperium to do all that and more, yet you want us to believe the Imperium would then acquiesce to the continued existence and/or recent founding of pro-Zhodani polity in Foreven which is over four times the size of the Five Sisters' Subsector and the Imperial-allied Darrian Confederation and only one subsector away from the same? The Zhodani are going to be allowed to lose the war in the Jewell, Vilis, and Sword World subsectors but win it in Foreven? That the Zhodani will be allowed to replace their lost Arden and Sword Worlds minor allies with an even larger one in Foreven?

Do you really want us to believe that Norris and the rest of the Imperial leadership in the Spinward Marches are that stupid?
I believe that it's perfectly possible for the Imperium to be strong enough to achieve victory in the Spinward Marches, close to its bases and far from the Zhodani bases, and yet be unable to reverse a three year old fait accompli in Foreven, further from their bases and closer to the Zhodani bases. It's not a question of Norris being stupid, it's a question of what he can realistically achieve. By your logic the Imperium would have been breaking the Consulate up into subsector-sized statelets. Why not? It won, didn't it?

Just why is it so inconcievable that the Imperium would be stronger in the Marches than in Foreven and the Zhodani would be stronger in Foreven than in the Marches?


Hans
 
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