Fly,Originally posted by flykiller:
larsen's cite of the soviet union brings up a question. how do most people within imperial territory see themselves, as citizens of their worlds or as citizens of the imperium?
Which is what I said.Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
Not other than credits, along with credits.
Were those militias manned by conscripts? Did the states have the power of the draft?Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
As for body shopping, prior to the military reforms on the late 1800s, the US federal government mandated that the states recruit, organize, and maintain militias that could then be federalized. Was that 'boddy shopping'?
Discussions held so far on the quality of the UWP sets available seem to indicate that many do want to ret-con them all away into something more reasonable.Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
I'm going to skip all your philosophical stuff about UWP generation and world descriptions. You can gripe about how they were created all you want. Sadly, they are also the only 'facts' we have to go on. You can't ret-con them all away.
So? Many “hell-hole” worlds are enshrined in canon. The fact that they are so-enshrined doesn’t alter their faulty distribution (an unplanned one, to be sure).Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
BTW, the Ward of Vision isn't some fan-boy creation. He's in MT and TNE.
In the USA, people have “freedom of movement”, and yet, if they don’t have money, they don’t move. The US Government doesn’t care if they don’t have the money to move. (Oh, and yes, people can wander about on foot, true enough, but it’s difficult without money, can be dangerous, and that analogy can’t extend to space at all in any way.)Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
Your Imperium has a freedom of movement and yet doesn't not care if the people involved can actually move or not? Brilliant, we can be seen as caring without really caring at all.
Being forced to pay for the privilege of leaving is not the same as being required to pay for the passage itself. They are two different things entirely, do not attempt to inappropriately consolidate them.Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
I can posit a world government that supports the right of its citizenry to cross the extrality line only after the person in question pays an exit tax. Oddly enough, the tax is a flat million credits. You're free to leave as soon as you pay and whether you can pay or not isn't part of the discussion. Free on paper doesn't mean free in reality.
That isn’t what I said.Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
The Imperium allows anyone who wishes so to cross the extrality line.
If you’ll recall, I pointed out that vagrants (or refugees) who can’t pay for starport services (shopping, eating, and purchase of travel offworld) don’t necessarily have legitimate rights of entry into the starport. A refugee wave would not be admitted, and nothing I’ve said previously suggests that it would.Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
The planet undergoes a spasm of unrest and suddenly the starport is swamped by refugees who can't afford low passage off world.
So where do we draw the line? When chargen supports your conclusions and nobody elses? Too much stuff is based on chargen already. What should we throw away?Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by RainofSteel:
As I mentioned, I think it’s entirely questionable to read facts into the nature of the Imperium based on chargen. <snip>
<snippage of pointless condencension>Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by RainofSteel:
introducing cultural “facts” on some worlds that are totally at odds with our own experience.
How dare you!Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
<snip>
Really? Know any WW2 vets? Any Korean vets? Do you know anyone who was conscripted?
<snip>
And if we check the UWPs, we find how many are utterly, totally, and completely broken. The entire Government stat is questionable, and the effect of modifiers on it is questionable, as well. See: Fixing the Government UWP?Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
The people only had a voice when the government in question was representative in some manner. Check out all those UWPS and see how many governments have representation of that type.
So if a world government says that none of it's citizens have legitimate business off-world and denies off-world pleasure travel then the Imperium would have no quarrel with that government?Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
Well, I'd say that both sides could conditionally restrict such movement. But there would have to be rules (IMO) allowing non-vagrant/non-criminal citizens on legitimate business (or pleasure travel) to move across the extrality line.
(Snip)The Imperium doesn't prevents entry into a starport except for criminals or terrorists or vagrants.
RoS,Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
Were those militias manned by conscripts? Did the states have the power of the draft?
Yes, until Marc Miller says otherwise. What we do in our own TUs is entirely up to us however.If canon itself is broken, do we retain it?
So, despite your 'freedom of movement' idea, you do have barriers to crossing extrality line after all. You cannot be a refugee, you cannot be a criminal, you cannot be a vagrant, and so forth. Tell me, just how does the SPA determine who is a criminal and who is not? Are worlds required to hand over all law enforcement data? Or could it be as simple as planetary extrality crossing guards informing their SPA opposite numbers that so-and-so is a criminal and thus won't be allowed to cross?If you’ll recall, I pointed out that vagrants (or refugees) who can’t pay for starport services (shopping, eating, and purchase of travel offworld) don’t necessarily have legitimate rights of entry into the starport. A refugee wave would not be admitted, and nothing I’ve said previously suggests that it would.
Good grief! You proclaim that we should apply our own experience when constructing fictional societies for the Imperium and when I point out that your own experience is being applied rather narrowly you decide you've been personally attacked.And, the descent into personal attacks begins when there is nothing else left to say. I was going to write more, but now there isn’t a point.
That isn't what you did, and that isn't what I did.Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
Good grief! You proclaim that we should apply our own experience when constructing fictional societies for the Imperium and when I point out that your own experience is being applied rather narrowly you decide you've been personally attacked.
Disagreeing with someone's ideas and presenting a few facts to support your differing viewpoint is not a personal attack.
Just to interject here but I want to make sure I'm reading the words correctly. Conscript is another word for draft or compulsory service correct? That's my understanding which means that the word encompasses quite a range.Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
"No state has the inherent right to survive through conscript troops and in the long run, no state ever has."
--RAH
That follows what I know of the basic OTU, as well.Originally posted by Randy Tyler:
Elliot, I don't think that the local noble of the Imperial government can 'take' a world's citizens without the local world government's permission. The local noble can ask the world government for volunteers to meet his personnel obligations to the Imperium (if any) but the world government does not have to comply. I don't think that the local noble is obligated to provide the Imperium with personnel. Not in the OTU, IMO.
That would be, "Member Worlds cannot be interefered with by the Imperium." Which is found all over canon.Originally posted by Elliot:
Sure - it was a suggestion for YTU - although excluding GURPS Nobles and T4 (I have neither) I can't see anything in my collection that indicates a noble could not require his fief world(s) to require service to the Imperium in a truly feudal manner. What references were you thinking of that says not in the OTU??
(By the way, i'm curious as to why it could not be so, so don't start a flame)