Free movement of citizens?
- Thread starter SJWaldock
- Start date
Fly,
It's going to vary in time and place naturally, but IMTU - and speaking generally - they will see themselves as citizens of their worlds first. It's a poor analogy but the US prior to the Civil War somewhat fits.
Do you remember my post to the TML 'The Hammock'? That's my view of things; the parsecs are wide and the Emperor is far away.
How often does the Imperium effect the everyday lives of the people on its member worlds? There is no Imperial version of the Department of Health and Human Services, no Imperial Dole, no Imperial social safety net. Do they really get X-boat mail often enough to make a difference?
Sure, there's a spot of disaster relief every so often along with some nice uniforms in parades, grav flybys, and warships on the Tri-Dee. If you're near a frontier, the Imperium keeps all the 'barbarians' at bay, but most everyone lives in the Core. Your 57th Century mom can follow the doings of the Imperial nobility like your 21st Century mom follows the UK Royals. Every so often, the IISS sends a cultural exchange troop through, but so what? I saw King Tut without thinking I was Egyptian.
Read the GT materials and remember what Strephon's long term fears are; sections of the Imperium are forgetting that they're Imperial. He even dispatched his family to the four corners of the empire during his Jubilee in the hope of bolstering what he sees as a flagging Imperial spirit.
Sincerely,
Larsen
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
Which is what I said.
Were those militias manned by conscripts? Did the states have the power of the draft?
Discussions held so far on the quality of the UWP sets available seem to indicate that many do want to ret-con them all away into something more reasonable.
So? Many “hell-hole” worlds are enshrined in canon. The fact that they are so-enshrined doesn’t alter their faulty distribution (an unplanned one, to be sure).
If canon itself is broken, do we retain it?
In the USA, people have “freedom of movement”, and yet, if they don’t have money, they don’t move. The US Government doesn’t care if they don’t have the money to move. (Oh, and yes, people can wander about on foot, true enough, but it’s difficult without money, can be dangerous, and that analogy can’t extend to space at all in any way.)
Being forced to pay for the privilege of leaving is not the same as being required to pay for the passage itself. They are two different things entirely, do not attempt to inappropriately consolidate them.
That isn’t what I said.
If you’ll recall, I pointed out that vagrants (or refugees) who can’t pay for starport services (shopping, eating, and purchase of travel offworld) don’t necessarily have legitimate rights of entry into the starport. A refugee wave would not be admitted, and nothing I’ve said previously suggests that it would.
So where do we draw the line? When chargen supports your conclusions and nobody elses? Too much stuff is based on chargen already. What should we throw away?
</font>[/QUOTE]That would be:
Question #1) Line?
Question #2) I’m not using chargen to support any conclusions.
Question #3) Throw what away?
<snippage of pointless condencension>
</font>[/QUOTE]And, the descent into personal attacks begins when there is nothing else left to say.
I was going to write more, but now there isn’t a point.
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
How dare you!
You’ve gone too far, sir!
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
And if we check the UWPs, we find how many are utterly, totally, and completely broken. The entire Government stat is questionable, and the effect of modifiers on it is questionable, as well. See: Fixing the Government UWP?
RandyT0001
SOC-13
So if a world government says that none of it's citizens have legitimate business off-world and denies off-world pleasure travel then the Imperium would have no quarrel with that government?
I believe that a world government can deny transit of people across the extrality line if they choose to do so. No one enters the starport and no one leaves the starport if the government so desires.
RoS,
Yes to both.
Yes, until Marc Miller says otherwise. What we do in our own TUs is entirely up to us however.
So, despite your 'freedom of movement' idea, you do have barriers to crossing extrality line after all. You cannot be a refugee, you cannot be a criminal, you cannot be a vagrant, and so forth. Tell me, just how does the SPA determine who is a criminal and who is not? Are worlds required to hand over all law enforcement data? Or could it be as simple as planetary extrality crossing guards informing their SPA opposite numbers that so-and-so is a criminal and thus won't be allowed to cross?
It seems on some occasions, the port must take the planet at its word. Again, the de facto and de jure gets real blurry real fast.
Good grief! You proclaim that we should apply our own experience when constructing fictional societies for the Imperium and when I point out that your own experience is being applied rather narrowly you decide you've been personally attacked.
Disagreeing with someone's ideas and presenting a few facts to support your differing viewpoint is not a personal attack.
Your TU presumes that the 57th Century Imperium functions much like a 21st Century Western nation-state. That is understandable because you live in a 21st Century Western nation-state. However, what you fail to realize that the majority of humanity does not currently in a live 21st Century Western nation-state and that the vast majority of humans in history did not live in a 21st Century Western nation-state. There are far many more systems of governance and society than those contained in your 21st Century Western nation-state philosophy, Horatio.
You've taken a very recent, happy accident form of government and society and blithely assumed that it is so historically inevitable that there will be no other systems extent 36 centuries from now. That's what I was pointing out.
You've closed the door to the full spectrum of human history and you're limiting what your TU can be for no reason other than the fact that you're comfortable with a certain, recent, accident of a government/society.
Six year old cabbies are nothing compared to what you could have if you'd shed your blinders with regard to governments and societies.
Now let's address my questions about your posted beliefs concerning conscription.
I asked if you knew any conscripts and you took great offense. I was responding to what you posted about conscripts. Please re-read it: Conscripts, especially when possessing even a modicum of education, resent their conscription.
That is a pretty bald statement, Chris. You then go on to post another equally as bad: This leads to employee retaliation in the form of sabotage, theft, and corruption. The more oppresive the conscription, the worse the retaliation. No words minced there either.
Have there been no good conscripts ever? None who ever worked out? Their resentement always leads to retaliation? I asked you about conscripts in conflicts where I know conscripts succeeded. Conscription works, not always, but it works and it has worked for a long time. You tarred all conscripts with the same brush, denying the idea that conscription had ever worked at all.
And you say I've gone too far?
I do hope you respond. I have had quite a bit of fun swapping ideas about the Imperium and your posts have been thought provoking to say the least.
Sincerely,
Larsen
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
That isn't what you did, and that isn't what I did.
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
"No state has the inherent right to survive through conscript troops and in the long run, no state ever has."
--RAH
--RAH
Just to interject here but I want to make sure I'm reading the words correctly. Conscript is another word for draft or compulsory service correct? That's my understanding which means that the word encompasses quite a range.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription
has a decent article on the subject
A range from the Greek Hoplite, arguably the foundation of Western soldier, to the chained infantry of the Sassanid Persians to the Roman Legions both Republic and Imperial to the French Revolutionary and first Imperial armies to the Prussian armies that helped defeat Napoleon I and later crushed Napoleon III’s mostly volunteer army to most of the soldiers that fought in the World Wars to say today's German and Israeli armies. Even Hapsburg Austria lasted longer than the USA has so far with mostly lackluster leadership and drafted troops. It looks to me that you’re instead viewing conscript as meaning only the chained Sassanid types.
The rest of that quote evidently is "Roman matrons used to say to their sons: "Come back with your shield, or on it." Later on, this custom declined. So did Rome." <shrugs> That's about courage in battle and Rome’s "Good Olde Days" (tm) in the Glorious Republic as much as it is about how a soldier joined an army really. Most casualties in battles fought with shields occured after a break point and it was common for fleeing soldiers to drop their shield. Nice jingoism but those shields were quite heavy and not conducive to running.
Really it seems to me that you're interjecting your own political and similar views into YTU, which is fine but the OTU Third Imperium is not Modern America or some similar Nation-State in space. I view it more like Hapsburg Austria meets Tekumel and find none of the major interstellar states in the OTU "acceptable" personally. But that doesn't hamper too much my ability to adventure in them.
So the politics of one of Heinlein's characters aside (and Lordie knows the man himself had strong opinions) conscripts are not IMO de facto a totally wrong or bad thing when viewed across time or in the context of the 3I in the OTU. You may not personally think so which is fine and fine for YTU but that’s always the case. Much further and this thread should go to the politics section IMO.
Casey
[EDIT] added quote attributation, wikipedia link, & some general reorganization[/EDIT]
Let's not call it conscription as it implies involuntary servitude. Call it recruitment.
Surely the Imperium can ask/demand a planetary government to recruit several hundred to thousand locals for service in the Imperial military or bureaucracy on a yearly basis. No different than modern day military recruiters having quotas; no one is pressed into service but some are very heavily recruited.
Then you have the Imperial university system, sort of like foreign service prep school, where graduates are expected to fill positions in the Imperial bureaucracy and are posted away from their homeworld.
The advantages to Imperial service could be access to the TAS, a huge pension, or other priveledges only available to Imperial bureaucrats or active duty military (medical, dental, etc.). Same as modern day military or government service retirees. To some, retiring after 20years of Imperial service with full benefits could be quite a draw.
Now, if the Imperial puts a recruiting burden on a world, they can either choose to comply themselves, open their populace to direct recruiting by the Imperium, or pay additional taxes as rough compensation. To a certain extent, the sub-sector governor would have to decide whether one world provides more suitable recruits at a reasonable expense than another or whether the planetary officials are meeting their commitments.
Surely the Imperium can ask/demand a planetary government to recruit several hundred to thousand locals for service in the Imperial military or bureaucracy on a yearly basis. No different than modern day military recruiters having quotas; no one is pressed into service but some are very heavily recruited.
Then you have the Imperial university system, sort of like foreign service prep school, where graduates are expected to fill positions in the Imperial bureaucracy and are posted away from their homeworld.
The advantages to Imperial service could be access to the TAS, a huge pension, or other priveledges only available to Imperial bureaucrats or active duty military (medical, dental, etc.). Same as modern day military or government service retirees. To some, retiring after 20years of Imperial service with full benefits could be quite a draw.
Now, if the Imperial puts a recruiting burden on a world, they can either choose to comply themselves, open their populace to direct recruiting by the Imperium, or pay additional taxes as rough compensation. To a certain extent, the sub-sector governor would have to decide whether one world provides more suitable recruits at a reasonable expense than another or whether the planetary officials are meeting their commitments.
I've found the opinions expressed here very interesting and informative. I now see the origins of the Traveller draft. Doh! (sound of palm hitting forehead).
I find the concept that all conscripts are bad, rather offensive, and I'll tell you why. My father-in-law was conscripted when we had National Service in peace time Britain. He being a consciencious objector, served seven years in the merchant marine rather than two in the military. He did very well in his service and almost stayed in. His lack of mathematical training stopped him from progressing higher than able-seaman. His service in the merchant navy gave him a boost away from his origins in the East End of London. He had a fund of stories, some funny, some sad and some strange from his time in the service. He once led a strike when the company were behaving badly, but never thought of sabotage.
The majority of people in the 3I would be exposed to some form of pro-imperial propaganda. It's as ubiquitous as Coco-Cola(TM) on 21st century Terra! Whatever you personally may think about the stuff, it's out there in your face rotting your children's teeth. The Imperium is out there having some effect however subtle on the outlook of the citizens of whatever government they happen to be living under. IMHO the higher pop the world has, the higher the Imperial effect. Largely because of youth culture and 'IN' things, which are influenced by advertising. We sponsor a kid in Uganda and he knows what Coca-Cola is, even if he can't afford it!
I find the concept that all conscripts are bad, rather offensive, and I'll tell you why. My father-in-law was conscripted when we had National Service in peace time Britain. He being a consciencious objector, served seven years in the merchant marine rather than two in the military. He did very well in his service and almost stayed in. His lack of mathematical training stopped him from progressing higher than able-seaman. His service in the merchant navy gave him a boost away from his origins in the East End of London. He had a fund of stories, some funny, some sad and some strange from his time in the service. He once led a strike when the company were behaving badly, but never thought of sabotage.
The majority of people in the 3I would be exposed to some form of pro-imperial propaganda. It's as ubiquitous as Coco-Cola(TM) on 21st century Terra! Whatever you personally may think about the stuff, it's out there in your face rotting your children's teeth. The Imperium is out there having some effect however subtle on the outlook of the citizens of whatever government they happen to be living under. IMHO the higher pop the world has, the higher the Imperial effect. Largely because of youth culture and 'IN' things, which are influenced by advertising. We sponsor a kid in Uganda and he knows what Coca-Cola is, even if he can't afford it!
Conscription maybe a way of putting the feudalism back into Traveller nobility.
Feudalism (as we all know) is the contract of a grant of land for military service - So maybe the draft is nothing to do with world governments per se but is a right of the local noble to take citizens of worlds to fulfil an obligation to the Imperium.
Feudalism (as we all know) is the contract of a grant of land for military service - So maybe the draft is nothing to do with world governments per se but is a right of the local noble to take citizens of worlds to fulfil an obligation to the Imperium.
RandyT0001
SOC-13
Elliot, I don't think that the local noble of the Imperial government can 'take' a world's citizens without the local world government's permission. The local noble can ask the world government for volunteers to meet his personnel obligations to the Imperium (if any) but the world government does not have to comply. I don't think that the local noble is obligated to provide the Imperium with personnel. Not in the OTU, IMO.
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
That follows what I know of the basic OTU, as well.
Sure - it was a suggestion for YTU - although excluding GURPS Nobles and T4 (I have neither) I can't see anything in my collection that indicates a noble could not require his fief world(s) to require service to the Imperium in a truly feudal manner. What references were you thinking of that says not in the OTU??
(By the way, i'm curious as to why it could not be so, so don't start a flame)
(By the way, i'm curious as to why it could not be so, so don't start a flame)
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
That would be, "Member Worlds cannot be interefered with by the Imperium." Which is found all over canon.
What reference were you thinking of that says they can?
RandyT0001
SOC-13
If the noble had the right to take citizens of a world for Imperial use off-world then I think it would have been stated in the essay about nobility in Supplement 11, Library Data N-Z. It would be an extremely powerful tool of the noblity not to have been mentioned. I don't think a noble can go to his fief world and demand anything from the world except the monetary taxes owed to the Imperium. If the local world government desires they can deny the noble access to their world beyond the extrality line. Enforcement may be a different matter depending on TL and planetary defenses.
The Imperium is in charge of the space between worlds which it protects for trade purposes and interstellar defense. I read the term 'worlds' as world 'systems' and not the individual worlds and planets within a system. IMTU, the major world within a system is in control of space within that system. Excersise of that control may be a different matter depending on TL. Pre-stellar worlds may (and usually do) allow the Imperium to patrol that space for them. I think that this is the way it is in the OTU. If a world surrenders control of space above it's atmosphere limit to the Imperium then the surrenders too much (IMO). Such a world couldn't even send up communication satellites without Imperial approval. If the limit of space control is instead 100 diameters then a world couldn't explore and exploit it's own system without Imperial approval. I have seen examples of main worlds having bases, etc. on other planets within it's system (though off the top of my head I can't cite said examples). If the main world didn't have jurisdiction over it's system then they would have to gain Imperial approval for each of the transits of supply and cargo ships to these outposts. I haven't seen examples of such applications for intrasystem travel before.
Some (not I) believe that any and all Imperal nobles are exempt from local law level and can excersize control over a local government 'in the name of the Emperor'. That is not the case for the OTU, IMO. Even a noble in possession of a Imerial Warrant cannot dictate cooperation from a world government if it decides not to assist the bearer. A Warrant is used to bypass 'Imperial' bureaucracy.
All IMO, of course.
The Imperium is in charge of the space between worlds which it protects for trade purposes and interstellar defense. I read the term 'worlds' as world 'systems' and not the individual worlds and planets within a system. IMTU, the major world within a system is in control of space within that system. Excersise of that control may be a different matter depending on TL. Pre-stellar worlds may (and usually do) allow the Imperium to patrol that space for them. I think that this is the way it is in the OTU. If a world surrenders control of space above it's atmosphere limit to the Imperium then the surrenders too much (IMO). Such a world couldn't even send up communication satellites without Imperial approval. If the limit of space control is instead 100 diameters then a world couldn't explore and exploit it's own system without Imperial approval. I have seen examples of main worlds having bases, etc. on other planets within it's system (though off the top of my head I can't cite said examples). If the main world didn't have jurisdiction over it's system then they would have to gain Imperial approval for each of the transits of supply and cargo ships to these outposts. I haven't seen examples of such applications for intrasystem travel before.
Some (not I) believe that any and all Imperal nobles are exempt from local law level and can excersize control over a local government 'in the name of the Emperor'. That is not the case for the OTU, IMO. Even a noble in possession of a Imerial Warrant cannot dictate cooperation from a world government if it decides not to assist the bearer. A Warrant is used to bypass 'Imperial' bureaucracy.
All IMO, of course.
Captain Zoom
SOC-9
I just wanted to interject something that I don't see discussed here (but I've only read the last page or so). Everyone seems to be focussing on "legal" issues. There's a practical issue as well. Since people are talking about conscription and drafts etc, I'm speaking mostly about the Service Careers.
What's the Imperial Navy, a TL14-15 institution, going to do with the equivalent of a 12th century agrarian peasant?
We could postulate advanced education programs to teach such people about light switches and whatnot, but its simply easier to integrate personnel from high tech worlds.
I suspect that most of the recruiting for the Service Careers happens on the moderate to high population worlds with Early to High Stellar tech codes. Yes, the Service Careers collectively need a lot of personnel, but it's still a drop in the bucket compared to the massed populations of the high tech hipop worlds, and when you add the massed populations of the high tech modpop worlds, its an even smaller drop.
Just a thought I had.
What's the Imperial Navy, a TL14-15 institution, going to do with the equivalent of a 12th century agrarian peasant?
We could postulate advanced education programs to teach such people about light switches and whatnot, but its simply easier to integrate personnel from high tech worlds.
I suspect that most of the recruiting for the Service Careers happens on the moderate to high population worlds with Early to High Stellar tech codes. Yes, the Service Careers collectively need a lot of personnel, but it's still a drop in the bucket compared to the massed populations of the high tech hipop worlds, and when you add the massed populations of the high tech modpop worlds, its an even smaller drop.
Just a thought I had.
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