Frozen watch

[McPerth]

Having readed Hemdian's 'The Odissey of the Bard Refuge', some questions arised to my mind about the frozen wach.

In that (for now unfinished ) novel, some Navy personnel awake from frozen wach and the first thing they have to do is to know each other and in which ship they are.

Do you think this would be the situation, or frozen wach would be known teams and know what ship they are supposed to crew in emergencies?

Being frozen just in case they're needed on an emergency, I think they'd better know each other and what ship are they on, as in if awaken, it will not be the best moment to introduce people not to introduce them to the ship. I guess they would be disoriented enough for the awakening as to have to figure who's who, what the command chain is, and where the drives (or bridge, or weaponry, for what is worth) are in this ship. It would be hard enough to figure just why they are needed and what is expected from them in this critical moment.

 

[HG_B]

In that (for now unfinished ) novel, some Navy personnel awake from frozen wach and the first thing they have to do is to know each other and in which ship they are.

Do you think this would be the situation, or frozen wach would be known teams and know what ship they are supposed to crew in emergencies?

No, that wouldn't the case. Think Blue/Gold watches. They are assigned crew, trained together and trained ON that ship.

 

[samuelvss]

No, that wouldn't the case. Think Blue/Gold watches. They are assigned crew, trained together and trained ON that ship.

My thoughts, exactly, when I read it.

However, two additional things come to mind. First, is the necessity to suspend my disbelief for fiction. Second, is that there are often, despite the general effort to maintain unit integrity (however earnest of halfhearted), some "onsey-twosies" are always going to trickle in. If someone were overlooked in vacating the ship, these might be the most likely. Certainly these few (6?) crew were not "the" frozen watch for an AHL, but rather a small part of it.

 

[McPerth]

My thoughts, exactly, when I read it.

However, two additional things come to mind. First, is the necessity to suspend my disbelief for fiction. Second, is that there are often, despite the general effort to maintain unit integrity (however earnest of halfhearted), some "onsey-twosies" are always going to trickle in. If someone were overlooked in vacating the ship, these might be the most likely. Certainly these few (6?) crew were not "the" frozen watch for an AHL, but rather a small part of it.

True, but they were on the same section, and didn't know each other, nor even in what ship class they were. When they're being recruited, they are as individuals, not a a coherent unit.

With all the stress the recruiter officier puts on they being frozen to save the day in an emergency, the time they have to loss just situating themselves and assesing the situation may be critical. even if someone was there to help them, the fact of not knowing each other would diminish their efficiency, something to avoid in any emergency situation.

I think FW would be at least introduced to each other, command chains established, had some joint training and being introduced and familiarized with the ship they would be on. If a transfer to another ship is needed, I guess they would be awaken to be informed and familiarize with it if at all possible.

Nevertheless, this doesnt intend to be a criticism to the novel, as I enjoyed quite a lot reading it (for now). Let's not forget it was intended to be a traveller campaign, and is as good a method to introduce the players as any other (even better than some I've seen...)

 

[far-trader]

I'm wondering if (in the interest of dropping the story into the game with less issues) perhaps rethinking how the FW is revived might help?

What I'm thinking is rather than being brought out in full crew sections, teams or even individuals are thawed to replace specific personnel as needed. Same effect, just a different implementation.

In that way any individual may not know any others, either aboard the ship or even in their own FW section.

I still think they would at least be briefed BEFORE being put into the FW what ship they were to serve on and oriented on its layout and systems (germane to their function). That part (not knowing what ship they're on) is just silly imo.

FWI, in MTU, the FW aren't recruited for that role. Nobody really wants the assignment, usually*. It is typically a punishment detail, so individuals coming out may not know who they will be serving with but they will know what ship they are on.

* Lister exceptions (per Red Dwarf of course)

 

[HG_B]

My thoughts, exactly, when I read it.

However, two additional things come to mind. First, is the necessity to suspend my disbelief for fiction. Second, is that there are often, despite the general effort to maintain unit integrity (however earnest of halfhearted), some "onsey-twosies" are always going to trickle in. If someone were overlooked in vacating the ship, these might be the most likely. Certainly these few (6?) crew were not "the" frozen watch for an AHL, but rather a small part of it.

Yes, of course. I was just referring to what would possibly be policy. There will always be exceptions based on bureaucratic screw ups, incompetence, non-compliance with regs, personnel shortages, etc.

 

[McPerth]

I'm wondering if (in the interest of dropping the story into the game with less issues) perhaps rethinking how the FW is revived might help?

What I'm thinking is rather than being brought out in full crew sections, teams or even individuals are thawed to replace specific personnel as needed. Same effect, just a different implementation.

In that way any individual may not know any others, either aboard the ship or even in their own FW section.

I still think they would at least be briefed BEFORE being put into the FW what ship they were to serve on and oriented on its layout and systems (germane to their function). That part (not knowing what ship they're on) is just silly imo.

IIRC somewhere (I think to remember a TD or MTD) said the FW where put in cold berth very cautiously so that they would be able to be awakened in short time (just inverse to emergency low berths, that are frozen hastly hoping they will be awakened cautiously in a full medical facility).

I guess they are frozen in teams if they are expected to work in teams (fighter pilots, engineering teams, marines fire teams, etc), and less so if expected to perform a more individual task (navigator, medics, etc). Even so I agree they are given at least a shake down course on the ship they'll be on, or they would be nearly useless in an emergency (a doctor not knowing where the sick bay is, a navigator looking for the bridge, a marine fire team just not knowing where they are needed, etc).

FWI, in MTU, the FW aren't recruited for that role. Nobody really wants the assignment, usually*. It is typically a punishment detail, so individuals coming out may not know who they will be serving with but they will know what ship they are on.

* Lister exceptions (per Red Dwarf of course)

In the thread about the expected live of a starship I was about to say the Red Dwarf lasted over 25 million years, but I didn't dare...:rofl:

 

[far-trader]

IIRC somewhere (I think to remember a TD or MTD) said the FW where put in cold berth very cautiously so that they would be able to be awakened in hsort time (just inverse to emergency low berths, that are frozen hasatly hoping they will be awakened cautiously in a full medical facility).

Yep, I recall the same, but not sure just where either.

I guess they are frozen in teams if they are epected to work in teams (fighter pilots, engineering teams, marines fire teams, etc), and less so if expected to perform a more individual task (navigator, medics, etc). Even so I agree they are given at least a shake down course on the ship they'll be on, or they would be nearly useless in an emergency (a doctor not knowing where the sick bay is, a navigator looking for the bridge, a marine fire team just not knowing where they are needed, etc).

That raises another item I was thinking about posting and asking for comments on. Who (what skills/positions) exist in the FW. I was going to check the rules first but can't till later. I think the lack of impact on ship performance (iirc) and some basic presumptions preclude many from being in the FW.

No pilots for example. Any craft will likely have been launched (should have been) and loss of said crew will generally only be because of loss of the craft. That's contrary to my earlier thoughts on the TCS pilot limit having to factor the FW replacements as well.

No officers for another. At least not full officers, maybe petty officers. I think it would just be too much to expect one to step out of the ice box and start giving orders to a crew they don't know, aren't known to, and in a serious situation. Also I think they'd be the ones in the safest part of the ship and not as vulnerable to crew hits.

Which leads to the rest of the bridge crew of course. The Pilot, Nav, Electronics Officers, etc. Also all unlikely to have FW replacements for the above reasons.

And finally the Gunners are also unlikely to be FW slots. For the most part anyway. If they are killed it's likely the gun they were manning is out of action as well so replacement Gunners won't be needed.

Which leaves what?

Engineers, Troops, and Service crew per CT HG (and possibly Medics). And that to me says for the most part the FW are replacements for damage control parties in combat. Tasks for which a variety of common skills (all personnel should have minimal training in damage control) are good and for which specific tight team knowledge are not critical.

All imo of course, but I think it logically fits and hangs together. Barring my memory of canon hasn't forgotten some specific note (like the Pilots limit in TCS re FW, unless that was just my own idea)

In the thread about the expected live of a starship I was about to say the Red Dwarf lasted over 25 million years, but I didn't dare...

The Solomani knew how to build ships to last in the early days of space exploitation

 

[Hemdian]

Hi. I thought it might be useful to explain my thinking here.

IMTU there are not always enough personnel to fill the FW and so members of the FW are frequently shuffled around from ship to ship while they ‘sleep’. If a FW member is revived during their assignment they would normally be revived with half the original crew still around and the ship’s computers still running. Thus while they wouldn’t necessarily know in advance which ship they would awaken on, they could expect some help with basic orientation when they were revived.

Second, the IN IMTU wanted to avoid a potential them-and-us situation developing between the remaining crew and the FW. So, rather than have the FW made up of functional teams, it is made up of individuals who go to replace lost team members of the remaining crew’s teams. An engineer here, a gunner there, that sort of thing. In fact the composition of the FW is basically just engineers and gunners, the occasional medic, and a sprinkling of junior officers who can fit in wherever.

Now in the case of the characters in Odyssey, if the FW is ‘plan B’ then they are already onto ‘plan C’: there is no existing crew into which they can integrate, nor any computer records to explain what has happened. They aren’t even a full FW, just the 14 survivors of one double compartment … minus one fatality (so far). Thus they are falling back on the training and forming an impromptu team and making the best of the situation as they can. This is an exceptional case amongst exceptional cases.

Looking at it from the narrative point of view for a moment, I wanted to start the story (both game and novel) “in media res”: ie. to start with the action and allow the conflicts built into the character backgrounds to emerge and mature naturally. I’d been watching a lot of “Lost” when I started this, and the idea of a bunch of strangers (who aren’t necessarily all going to get along) being thrown in at the deep end appealed to me.

 

[far-trader]

Hi. I thought it might be useful to explain my thinking here.

Very much so ('specially for those like me who haven't actually read it).

The explanation ties it up nicely. It's not a "fecal matter applied to the rotary impeller moment", it's more "what's all this brown stuff on the walls and why is the fan broken" question time.

I have a weakness/like for this kind of desperate emergency thrown together to survive scenario. Sounds like I've missed a good read.

 

[Hemdian]

Not really. It's a WIP ... go to my website and follow the link with an AHL picture (about half way down) for the first 6 chapters.

 

[far-trader]

Thanks Hemdian, I will

 

[McPerth]

That raises another item I was thinking about posting and asking for comments on. Who (what skills/positions) exist in the FW. I was going to check the rules first but can't till later. I think the lack of impact on ship performance (iirc) and some basic presumptions preclude many from being in the FW.

No pilots for example. Any craft will likely have been launched (should have been) and loss of said crew will generally only be because of loss of the craft. That's contrary to my earlier thoughts on the TCS pilot limit having to factor the FW replacements as well.

From MT RM, page 60:

Pilot requirements: The frozen watch must contain at least half the total numer of pilots required for the ship.

Don't ask me why. I just quote what RM says, though I'm more inclined to think like you in this aspect.

No officers for another. At least not full officers, maybe petty officers. I think it would just be too much to expect one to step out of the ice box and start giving orders to a crew they don't know, aren't known to, and in a serious situation. Also I think they'd be the ones in the safest part of the ship and not as vulnerable to crew hits.

I guess there can be some junior officiers included on the teams frozen, just to have someone who knows better his team (e.g. an engineering team lead by its own officier). Most of the officiers in FW, though, would be in staff positions (or limited command, as specified above), and be considered out of command chain (exception above again) until at least 48 hours have passed since awakening (for the reasons you gave here).

Which leads to the rest of the bridge crew of course. The Pilot, Nav, Electronics Officers, etc. Also all unlikely to have FW replacements for the above reasons.

And finally the Gunners are also unlikely to be FW slots. For the most part anyway. If they are killed it's likely the gun they were manning is out of action as well so replacement Gunners won't be needed.

It could be useful to have those people in FW, but for use after the battle, not in the middle of it

Which leaves what?

Engineers, Troops, and Service crew per CT HG (and possibly Medics). And that to me says for the most part the FW are replacements for damage control parties in combat. Tasks for which a variety of common skills (all personnel should have minimal training in damage control) are good and for which specific tight team knowledge are not critical.

This will be the bulk of frozen watch, IMO

Hi. I thought it might be useful to explain my thinking here.

IMTU there are not always enough personnel to fill the FW and so members of the FW are frequently shuffled around from ship to ship while they ‘sleep’. If a FW member is revived during their assignment they would normally be revived with half the original crew still around and the ship’s computers still running. Thus while they wouldn’t necessarily know in advance which ship they would awaken on, they could expect some help with basic orientation when they were revived.

But in an emergency (the time to awaken the FW), few personnel may be spared to act as guides or to make introductions among the FW...

Second, the IN IMTU wanted to avoid a potential them-and-us situation developing between the remaining crew and the FW. So, rather than have the FW made up of functional teams, it is made up of individuals who go to replace lost team members of the remaining crew’s teams. An engineer here, a gunner there, that sort of thing. In fact the composition of the FW is basically just engineers and gunners, the occasional medic, and a sprinkling of junior officers who can fit in wherever.

A unit cohesion vs unit efficiency case...

Interesting

Now in the case of the characters in Odyssey, if the FW is ‘plan B’ then they are already onto ‘plan C’: there is no existing crew into which they can integrate, nor any computer records to explain what has happened.

Say more a 'plan Z'... And that only because there are no more letters in the alphabet.

Looking at it from the narrative point of view for a moment, I wanted to start the story (both game and novel) “in media res”: ie. to start with the action and allow the conflicts built into the character backgrounds to emerge and mature naturally. I’d been watching a lot of “Lost” when I started this, and the idea of a bunch of strangers (who aren’t necessarily all going to get along) being thrown in at the deep end appealed to me.

From the narrative point, you obtained a quite interesting result. As I said before, never intended this to be a criticism to your novel, just some reflections about FW.

It can be justified that this FW section was precisely one of 'leftovers', or many other reasons why this section precisely are of unkonwn varied personnel (after all, the true reason is that the referee/author decided it to be like that for 'needs of the script', and that is more than enough).

Thanks Hemdian, I will

I suggest you to, it's a good reading.

At worst you will hate Hemdian... if he makes us wait too long for the next chapter :devil:.

 

[Hemdian]

From the narrative point, you obtained a quite interesting result. As I said before, never intended this to be a criticism to your novel, just some reflections about FW.

Understood. And thanks. When the idea to base a campaign around the FW popped into my head I just ran with it. This thread is making me re-examine my snap assumptions and intuitions: as and when the FW features in a future game I may handle it differently.

As for the story I’m kind of locked in to my original view now. But “needs of the script” are fine unless they become excuses for elements that just don’t make sense. So in addition to noting everyone’s different take on things I’m also trying to gage how strong their views are.

But in an emergency (the time to awaken the FW), few personnel may be spared to act as guides or to make introductions among the FW...

I still think there would normally be a couple of med techs overseeing the revival process. Plus, if you remember, the low berth ready room was geared up to display ship’s current status, etc (if it had been working) to auto-brief revivees. Combine that with everyone getting a hand computer (still need to find a good name for that) ... I still don’t see this as a big issue.

I remember a high school friend of mine who joined the Canadian Armed Forces telling me a story of one of his training exercises when stationed at Esquimalt. He was put on a special training vessel that was towed out into the bay. Then he and a bunch of other cadets had a short time to find and repair all the deliberately placed leaks before it sank to the bottom. I don’t know how much he was exagerating but his story certainly left an impression. I imagine the IN would have similar sink-or-swim damage control training. In a crisis situation IN personnel just need to be pointed in the right direction and from their training they know what to do.

Or at least that was where I was coming from.

Say more a 'plan Z'... And that only because there are no more letters in the alphabet.

Not far from the truth. And I’ve cut out some of the stuff the PCs did in the original campaign. For example the player of Hegeh became obsessed with refuelling the ship with conventional fuel (as a back up). He had the colonists jury-rigged tanks in their scout ships and ferry up water ... a few dtons at a time. o: IIRC he started to give up after a couple of weeks had passed.

And finally the Gunners are also unlikely to be FW slots. For the most part anyway. If they are killed it's likely the gun they were manning is out of action as well so replacement Gunners won't be needed.

Hmm, I imagined that, given the hostility of the environment, it was possible to have combat damage that kills the gunner but leaves the weapon in a field-repairable state. I’ll have to think on that one.

 

[kilemall]

Hmm, while looking around for Frozen Watch threads, found this one and have to respond to an aspect of it.


While the 'wake up amongst strangers while in duress' trope is all lovely and could work well as a storytelling machina, it makes for very poor Naval policy.


Simply due to WHEN the FW is being awoken.


It will be in the middle of a battle, when the ship's crew has taken serious losses likely at least 1/2 to 3/4 radiological depending on version and weapons mix, and the ship in dire need of repair.


There isn't time for team gelling or introductions and only the barest of briefings, it's wake up, shrug off the process, we got clobbered and the ship is now off the line but we need to repair to cycle back into battle.


As such the FW will go in low berth knowing there is a real chance they will wake up to chaotic battle, and a wise navy will train them and have them up to pitch perfect before freezing them.


They will know what ship they are on, be trained to repair and replace ASAP upon being awoken.

 

[whartung]

As such the FW will go in low berth knowing there is a real chance they will wake up to chaotic battle, and a wise navy will train them and have them up to pitch perfect before freezing them.

They'll probably go in to FW knowing that when they wake up, it'll be just another drill.

 

[mike wightman]

They'll probably go in to FW knowing that when they wake up, it'll be just another drill.

I agree.
You drill and drill and drill.
When it is for real your training takes over.

 

[whartung]

I agree.
You drill and drill and drill.
When it is for real your training takes over.

It brings up an interesting issue.

How long does it take to recover from a low berth.

 

[Winged Cat]

The rules seem to imply no time at all to recover from a low berth, beyond the check to wake up and have survived, which seems to be no more than an hour - perhaps 1D minutes.

 

[mike wightman]

Going by High Guard 80 it takes 40 minutes to revive the frozen watch:

...reviving the frozen watch. This process takes two turns.

How much of this time is shaking off the effects of hibernation and then deployment to the parts of the ship where they are needed is probably up for discussion.