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Future of 1977 -vs- Future of 2010?

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Kidding asside... Maybe this is part of the problem. These things exist - but the choices of what went into the CORE books as defining the setting have not been consistent so it takes a scholar to be able to really grok the setting.
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Some of it is implied in the rules, some of it is not. Some of it is covered in past source materials, some of it is not.

We are talking 6 years later from the core, and yes, in '77 satellite phones were on the horizon (hey, a pun!) for non-military use but was not something readily available. Our technology, particularly electronics, has progressed much faster than the Traveller world of 1977 could have predicted. A lot of things are like that - there are things no one anticipates (i.e., look at cell phones: who would have been able to predict that before they became more common than land lines?)

After the fact, stuff is often blindingly obvious. So that's why modules get added all the time to games, particularly SF types. To keep up with entirely unanticipated changes.

But that's my gist of it. When I actually played it was early 80s, and yes, being a computer science major I thought the computer progression was crazy. It's been updated since then in various released (and to be released) versions. But in 1977, well, it may have seemed reasonable (somewhere I've got a picture from the 60's predicting the home computer. It takes up an entire room...and Star Trek computers are huge (even if containing FTL elements): the Next Generation computer is something like 9 decks high - I think they are larger than a Traveller Scout ship)

Anyway - yes, sometimes new stuff is released in modules. I don't think you can, particularly for an SF game, manage to put EVERYTHING into a core book. Everything you need to play, but not everything possible. I think perhaps Godel's Law (or is that rule?) comes into play.
 
But that's exactly what they're not. There are no rails in space. An X-boat route is simply two X-boat tenders within four parsecs of each other and a shedule that says the service intends to send an X-boat from one to the other next Tuday. Which is why a number of doglegs in the canonical X-boat routes make no sense whatsoever. From Resen (Spinward Marches 2323) to Ivendo, for example, is one jump, not four. Rhylanor to Celepina and Rhylanor to Risek and Celepina to Risek are all one jump, not two. Aramis to inthe? Two jumps, not five. Etc. etc.

And if one day the Scouts decided that a particular X-boat node has become redundant, all they would have to do is have a big freighter move the X-boat tender from where it's no longer needed to where it's needed. That, and print out a new shedule.

X-boat routes are nothing like railways.


But that really isn't relevant to the point I'm trying to make. The long and the short of it is that for any distance over eight parsecs, one jump-6 courier every week beats an X-boat every six hours. For distances like between Capital and the borders, one courier every month will beat the X-boats like a drum.


I sincerely doubt the economics would work out. I think it's maintained because there are people who make money because it's maintained. Like the X-boat manufacturers. And also because the X-boat Service isn't going to reccommend its own demise.


Hans

The reason I use the analogy to railways is that there is a large scale network involved. If one part of the network goes down, the rest of the system suffers. Not only that, but in order to deal with these problems you either have to solve them locally, or it will take a month or more just to go fetch the repair team. There is a heavy emphasis on reliability, something that fits right in with Vilani psychology.

I expect you are right that everything required is portable, and if the motovation was there, the network could be changed three or four times a year. As it stands the x-boat network is hopelessly inefficient, and it is boggling how anyone could design it that way. I don't want to justify the x-boat route a piece of elegant design, I am just trying to solve the problem of how it came to be in the shape it is.

If it was only the people who worked on the x-boat network that had an interest in maintaining it then the system would crumple pretty fast. The way I see it the system has two things going for it.

1) It is a relatively cheap, reliable method of getting messages from anywhere in the Imperium to anywhere in the Imperium. To match this you would have to rebuild a parallel j6 network from scratch. There may be Megacorporation that are technically capable of doing this, but politically it would be impossible. They can get away with a lot, but this would be a direct and costly challenge the the Imperium's authority.

2) It is emblematic of Imperium's broad influence, and of a system's status in the Imperium.

Why are there so many redundant nodes on the x-boat route?

Answer 1) Built in redundancy can be cheaper than having to keep every part of the system 100% reliable.

Answer 2) Everybody wants to be a part of the x-boat route. Subsector dukes want a lot of nodes in their subsector, because this gives them status, and a cheap way to shuffle paperwork from one planet to another. Sector Dukes want an effiecient network everywhere else, but in their own sector they are willing to forgo efficiency to keep their underlings happy. The emperor would like an efficient x-boat route, but he doesn't need it, and there are so many more pressing problems to deal with...
 
As it stands the x-boat network is hopelessly inefficient, and it is boggling how anyone could design it that way. I don't want to justify the x-boat route a piece of elegant design, I am just trying to solve the problem of how it came to be in the shape it is.
I don't think it was designed in its present form. I think it grew wild once it became redundant and no longer had to be efficient. It is nutured by Imperial funding and it grows whenever someone can bribe a senior X-boat administrator to set up a new link. The Scouts have a vested interest in keeping up their budget. The X-boat manufacturers have a vested interest in selling more X-boats and tenders. Individual worlds -- some individual worlds -- take pride in being on an X-boat route and are willing to pay for the priviledge. That's why there are such totally redundant links as the one that connects Boughene to Kinorb via Pixie!!!


1) It is a relatively cheap, reliable method of getting messages from anywhere in the Imperium to anywhere in the Imperium.
No, it isn't. First of all, there are all the places that the X-boats don't serve. But let's assume we're talking about getting messages from any subsector capital in the Imperium to any other subsector capital in the Imperium. According to the description, the X-boats blast off as often as every six hours on some routes. Let's assume a more frugal once per day. That allows them to get messages from Regina to Efate in two weeks for a capital investment of MCr550 (half a tender at Regina, a tender at Roup, and half a tender at Efate) plus MCr1,960 (14 X-boats jumping between Regina and Roup and 14 X-boats jumping between Roup and Efate) = MCr2,510. Meanwhile, two jump-6 couriers will get the information back and forth between Regina and Efate in 8 days every 8 days for an capital investment of MCr510. That's 75% faster for one fifth of the investment. If you want redundancy, buy a couple more couriers. There are savings enough to pay for them and more.

(Of course, if there are enough people on Efate and Regina who are willing to pay six times the cost of jump-3 traffic in order to get back and forth in one jump instead of two, there will be a jump-6 passenger route between the two worlds.)

To match this you would have to rebuild a parallel j6 network from scratch.
No, you just have to buy enough couriers to connect every subsector capital with its neighbors. You can even do it a little bit at a time. The network will come into being both automatically and inevitably. As I submit has already happened with the navy couriers.


Hans
 
One thing that is often forgotten that the future involves a wholesale digestion of an entirely alien culture (the Vilani) that avoided Technological Innovation. We cannot assume that the pace of modernity and the constant invention of new gagets could survive in such an environment. We also saw a catastrophic collapse of civilization - the Long Night. So, while we might expect all sorts of gee whiz technical wonders - sometimes the natural inclination of humans is to use the tools that work. If anyone saw the brilliant South African film - The Gods Must Be Crazy it brilliantly shows how technology would be used. Similarly, the Terrans might be completely wowed by Vilani advances in gravatics, microengineeering (notice no nano), jump drive physics that their paradigms would be shattered well into the rise of the 3I which mixed and merged the best traditions of both brothers of Man.
 
TL

one thing that seems to get lost in the shuffle quite often, or at least not brought up, is the fact that while individual worlds are of varying TL's, this is an indication of self-sustenance, not an indication of the only TL available on any particular world. At least this is my understanding, please correct me if I am wrong.

With this in mind - is there a guideline for price adjustments based on TL differential that i may have missed? Say I am looking for a medscanner and the locally produced ones, while top of the line, are only TL 12 and I find in an import shop a low-end TL 15 one. I have the base prices in the books, but that doesn't take into account the fact it is imported at some cost to the world I am on, and its relative scarcity in the local market.

Or is the Gm just expected to come up with the solution on the fly? While I am quite capable of figuring it myself, I don't like reinventing the wheel if I don't have to. ;)
 
Yes, shadowdragon, there is... but it's in a wonky way. In the article on local currencies, the local credit is valued at fractions of the CrImp. Anything locally made is available for list in CrLocal. It's in Adv 5 TCS, p32. It's also in Striker Bk2, p.32, and somewhere in TNE.

So a Cr5000 TL 9 gewgaw at a TL12 starport C world (value .75) is CrLocal5000, which becomes CrImp3750, but if bought at a TL9 SP D (CrL=CrImp0.55) world, it costs CrImp2750.

Now, take Regina: A-12 CrL=CrImp .85... importing from Wypoc E-8 (CrL=CrImp0.45). You're buying a Model 1 computer for a ship, list of MCr2. MCrWypoc2 is KCrImp900, instead of the KCrImp1700 you'd pay for a regina manufacture Model 1. So, after shipping (CrImp1000) and ordering (take a KCr20 trip round trip with the money), net cost is KCrImpKCr921... or KCrRegina1084. So Regina Yards probably would by each and every model 1 they could from Wypoc. Smaller stuff needs to be shipped in bulk by expiditing companies. But Wypoc isn't going to produce many, since it's NI... so don't expect to set up production lines!
 
Aramis are you forgetting about the GURPS/Jacksonian heresy...Kamsii makes one think that humanform robots are quite common. This is somewhat reinforced by Traveller's Digest. What prevents the widespread production of said robots is a taboo rather engineering. This is a legacy of something that Traveller has not written about but thoughts of Dune keep drifting back into my head.
 
Aramis are you forgetting about the GURPS/Jacksonian heresy...Kamsii makes one think that humanform robots are quite common. This is somewhat reinforced by Traveller's Digest. What prevents the widespread production of said robots is a taboo rather engineering. This is a legacy of something that Traveller has not written about but thoughts of Dune keep drifting back into my head.

Actually, TD makes the point that Aybee is quite the exception to the norm. 101 robots also has few.

And The Aramis don't do GT...
 
Actually, TD makes the point that Aybee is quite the exception to the norm. 101 robots also has few.
Aybee is an exception because he is a robot disguised as a man, which is a cultural no-no. He's also an exception because he's very close to being a true AI. Pseudo-biological robot: Possible, but taboo. Artificial Intelligence: Beyond Imperial technology.

And The Aramis don't do GT...
Your loss.


Hans
 
Aybee is an exception because he is a robot disguised as a man, which is a cultural no-no. He's also an exception because he's very close to being a true AI. Pseudo-biological robot: Possible, but taboo. Artificial Intelligence: Beyond Imperial technology.

101 robots also avoids humaniforms as a general rule.

Lots of robots; most of them no more human looking than R2-D2. And only AB101 looks more human than C-3P0.

Your loss.

No, after GTFT, I'm quite positive it was my gain.
 
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101 robots also avoids humaniforms as a general rule.

Lots of robots; most of them no more human looking than R2-D2. And only AB101 looks more human than C-3P0.
So? We've already established that robots aren't usually built to resemble humans. Not as a general, Imperium-wide rule. That's not the same thing as saying they couldn't be built that way if the cultural mores allowed it, or that they arent built that way on a few worlds. I don't have 101 Robots but my guess is that most of them are megacorporate models, am I right? Designed to have customer appeal on the greatest number of markets? While others are special purpose robots built for one particular application?

Kafka, where in Kamsii does it imply that humaniform robots are common? Kamsii sounds like just the place that would have human-like robots, but a quick browse-through failed to turn up the reference. I wonder if it implies that such robots are common anywhere else than on Kamsii?


Hans
 
No, after GTFT, I'm quite positive it was my gain.

Could you give me your reasons for disliking GTFT?

I'm asking an honest question here, not looking for flame-bait.

I never read the book and never played Gurps. I'm just wondering why you, and a couple of non-Gurps-playing Traveller aficionados, seem to have such a dislike for that particular book.

If you prefer you could share your views with a PM.
 
Gents,

Re: Humaniform robots.

There are very few robots shaped like humans in the Third Imperium for the same reason there are no automobiles shaped like a "horse & buggy".

To whit: There are no good economic and engineering reasons to handicap a robot by constraining it within a narrow range of shapes and volumes.

Sure, there were plenty of engravings and even a few designs in the mid to late 1800s in which automobiles mimicked the look of the then widespread horse and buggy. People quickly dropped that conceit when it became apparent to even the biggest dullards that limiting an automobile's shape, form, and volume to that of a horse and buggy was engineering idiocy.

Similarly in the 57th Century, a housekeeping 'bot isn't going to be some vaguely human form pushing a vacuum cleaner around. A housekeeping 'bot is going to be a vacuum cleaner among many many other things.

Robots will have the forms, shapes, and volumes which are the best for performing their jobs. Robots which need to interact closely and continually with sophonts on a intimately personal level, i.e. valets, will be shaped like the sophonts they serve. The myriad of other robots which inhabit the 57th Century, however, will have the shapes, forms, and volumes which best suit their job.

We need to break this Robot = Humaniform mindset. A robot stevedore working on the waterfront is going to look more like a fork truck and nothing like Marlon Brando.


Regards,
Bill
 
Could you give me your reasons for disliking GTFT?

I'm asking an honest question here, not looking for flame-bait.

I never read the book and never played Gurps. I'm just wondering why you, and a couple of non-Gurps-playing Traveller aficionados, seem to have such a dislike for that particular book.

If you prefer you could share your views with a PM.

1) the rules are cumbersome to use
2) the base assumptions include that modern sea/air/land trade flows will be mirrored on an interstellar level
3) the book seems to undervalue the effects of the comm lags
4) the book seems to undervalue the utility of speculative trade
5) the authors used 20th century trade flows in developing their model
6) the GURPS Traveller $ does not convert well to the CT/MT/TNE/T20/T4 Cr Imperial, and has different pinning assumptions which cause multiple percolative effects through the GURPS Traveller line, and make it harder to adapt GTFT to non-GURPS use.
7) GTFT assumes the vast majority of interstellar trade is materials ordered by others and being shipped as hired freight. This doesn't jive with CT nor MT adventures and setting materials, where speculation is the dominant mode. Nor with age of sail records, which is the last time that trade moving faster than signals was normative.

Now, I've probably run 500+ hours of GURPS sessions, and have a number of GURPS books, and had many more that got stolen during a move; I outgrew it around age 25, and last ran it about a decade ago... somewhere around age 30... which is when I realized I'd outgrown it.
 
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1) the rules are cumbersome to use
GURPS rules in general or the rules introduced by FT? I'd agree with you if the first, disagree with you if the second. (Well, the rules that I routinely use, which is admittedly only some of them, are reasonably easy).

2) the base assumptions include that modern sea/air/land trade flows will be mirrored on an interstellar level
3) the book seems to undervalue the effects of the comm lags
4) the book seems to undervalue the utility of speculative trade
5) the authors used 20th century trade flows in developing their mode
What's the difference between 2) and 5)?

All four of these objections imply that you have a good reason to believe that there is a better way to model these factors. Do you have one? IIRC Jim McLean once stated that they had used the gravity model because there was no reason to believe it wouldn't be as "accurate" as anything else anyone could come up with, and good reason to believe that it was better than most.

6) the GURPS Traveller $ does not convert well to the CT/MT/TNE/T20/T4 Cr Imperial, and has different pinning assumptions which cause multiple percolative effects through the GURPS Traveller line, and make it harder to adapt GTFT to non-GURPS use.
That's very true, and the bit about GT that I most dislike. Nevertheless, although it does make it harder to combine FT with non-GURPS rules, there's a lot of stuff that it is possible to use.

7) GTFT assumes the vast majority of interstellar trade is materials ordered by others and being shipped as hired freight. This doesn't jive with CT nor MT adventures and setting materials, where speculation is the dominant mode.
Or perhaps it's CT and MT adventures that don't jive with the vast majority of mainstream interstellar trade, and CT and MT setting material that deal more with free trader operations than with the vast majority of trade.

Nor with age of sail records, which is the last time that trade moving faster than signals was normative.
That's interesting. Could you elucidate?


Hans
 
Kamsai (sp) implies in the different "recreation" models on hand. It has different models performing as clowns and whatnot. I seem to also recall there was a TNE Challenge adventure that did largely the same thing.

Humaniform is highly inefficient as a form hence probably their limited use. However, humans in the past, present and hence presumably in the future always try to implant "human" values onto objects and other living things (our pets, livestock, etc). There is no reason why humanform robots will not likely see this in the future barring a catastrophe like that mentioned in Dune. The Long Night would have equally led to a rise of sentients first and technology to merely serve a handmaiden combined with residual Vilani values could produce a cultural matrix that reinforces the Imperial prejudice. Then you have crazies like the SSSM running around. Robots stay very mechanical which is what they are.
 
Kamsai (sp) implies in the different "recreation" models on hand. It has different models performing as clowns and whatnot.
That's too vague to help. There are no robots explicitly detailed in Kamsii. There may be references buried in the text, but I can't find any. Not that I sat down and read the whole thing from cover to cover.


Hans
 
1) the rules are cumbersome to use
I completely agree.

7) GTFT assumes the vast majority of interstellar trade is materials ordered by others and being shipped as hired freight. This doesn't jive with CT nor MT adventures and setting materials, where speculation is the dominant mode. Nor with age of sail records, which is the last time that trade moving faster than signals was normative.

That makes perfect sense to me & I see no contradiction - I assume that in CT & MT, they are talking about PCs & not the norm. I'd estimate that in the Imperium 90% of interstellar cargo trade is bulk carriers carrying large amounts of freight from on populous star system (typically with a class A or B starport) to another such system. These ships are corporate owned ships piloted by NPCs. PCs do the remaining 10% - speculative cargoes, freight shipments to or from (or to & from) less populous worlds with lower end starports. PCs aren't carrying cargoes from Regina to Rhylanor. PCs in a 200-400 ton ship won't get a contract for that (except perhaps smuggling), because the contracts for such choice (but dull) cargo runs are held by large corporations that send 5,000 ton (or larger) ships to carry those cargoes. PC merchants are by their nature out on the fringes - doing smuggling, speculative cargoes, and small freight runs that aren't large enough, reliable enough or profitable enough for the large corporations. This is as it should be, because the last thing PC merchant campaigns should be is dull & routine.

For examples, Andre Norton's Solar Queen novels are perfect examples and include the same distinction between dull but profitable corporate cargo runs and interesting, economically riskier, & sometimes dangerous free trader cargo runs.
 
Gents,

Re: Humaniform robots.

<SNIP>

To whit: There are no good economic and engineering reasons to handicap a robot by constraining it within a narrow range of shapes and volumes.

<SNIP>


Regards,
Bill

The only reason I can think of for using humaniform 'bots is their ability to use human-intended tools and vehicles without modification. It can sit down in a jeep, drive to a location, grab the tool kit in the back, and do the job. Is that 'generalism' valuable enough to offset the lower cost of a purpose-built mechanic-bot? No. But it probably offsets the cost of a series of purpose-built mechanic-bots and chef-bots and agro-bots and...
 
GURPS rules in general or the rules introduced by FT? I'd agree with you if the first, disagree with you if the second. (Well, the rules that I routinely use, which is admittedly only some of them, are reasonably easy).
GTFT in specific. I find core GURPS rules reasonably easily usable. (no longer appreciating the misplaced details is a different matter.)

What's the difference between 2) and 5)?
2 is using the wrong basis for trade; high speed of delivery is part of the model, a part that they may have undervalued

5 is ignoring the evidence that a gravity freight model is dependent upon fast communications. A part that they considered but probably undervalued.


That's interesting. Could you elucidate?
SImply put, Jim, Blue, and Chris have all stated they don't believe speculation significantly different from freight.

They are, respectfully, woefully ignorant of the historical modes of shipping before the telegraph; the majority of materials shipped by sea were high value consumer goods, and almost no staples of life. Food would rot in the trans-atlantic, trans pacific, and asia-europe trade flows; it did not go. Textiles and spices flow more than most other things, because their inherent rarity of production means speculation will almost always provide a return on investment.

Only one spice is essential for life; salt. Salt has been traded on speculation, almost as specie currency, for all of history. Where you can collect salt easily, you can buy whatever you need... excepting fresh foods from far away.

We don't see lots of food shipping to England from the US; their breadbaskets were closer... france, italy, and the middle east. The Potato Blight: it was easier to sent starving people to the food than to buy and ship food to the people. The guys shipping food on spec (a few irish skippers) were able to make an ROI, but the food they shipped wasn't enough to prevent famine. By the time the captains abroad were able to buy food on spec, the famine was claiming lives in abundance.

All of which leads to the conclusion that the gravity model used is invalid if the communications are too slow.

Now, we are talking travel times for goods on the order of several weeks.

Also, keep in mind: England was able to feed all of Britain up through the late 19th C; once communications took over, she began to import US food as a demand item, that is, as freight: "I'll pay you to carry the 5000T of grain I've bought by wire so I can feed my cattle." Lo, and behold, the UK population density climbs rapidly from that point. Prior to that point, all societies had localized farming simply to survive, because without reliable communications food does not travel far. And farming limits population density.

Roman trade in the med, likewise: fruits travel as luxury goods, seldom ordered, almost always bought and resold by the merchant, from north africa to Italia; speculation. It's still speculation when the merchant has a standing request; he can't be certain the requestor will still pay when he gets the goods back. What fruits didn't get sold was eaten, used as crew rewards, etc, so fruit moves relatively well by comparison to grain. That which moved by orders was gold, salt, art, wines, olives, and dates... standing orders by virtue of taxation. Rather than the pull of need, the push of tribute moving those items. Rome and Byzantium did ship in food... from only a few days away. But that flow of food on steady demand does show a very localized pattern.

GTFT accurately models a demand-filling mode, but given the slow speed of communications and travels, I don't think they accounted for distance well enough, nor for the difference in what moves nor how it moves. One can only fill a demand either by guesswork or by sure knowledge; at 1J, we see a 2 week lag, which is right on the edge of the demand mode historically. Past that, little seems to move by demand. at 4 weeks (minimum possible 2J time), the majority of trade was owned by the merchant. At 6 weeks or more, 3J minimum time, as with the transatlantic trade of 1700-1850, almost all passengers are government agents or colonists on one-way, and almost all goods are purchased by someone aboard for sale at the far end.

Plus, the presumption that flows will replicate those by rapid mode...

GTFT assumes a direct continuing growth of trade across the interplanetary boundary; however, one should note that in ancient societies, the flow of food to large centers was a function of taxation, not trade, and the outliers didn't feed the center, the fed the middliers, who fed the central, simply due to rats and rot. Londinium was not fed by Cornish food, but by the outlying areas immediately surrounding Londinium, and only so far as the neighboring counties, really. It did, however, buy wool, wood, and other durables. And it likewise sold weapons, wagons, and beer widely.

I don't see that, either. As a location's population crosses a threshold point, without rapid communications with outside, it reverses the specialization trend of the middling sized populations, resulting in the mixed industry and commerce models of 1700's London, NY, Atlanta, Paris... these places, as they grew, once again started to diversify, and reduce their need for outside goods. On an interstellar scale, again, the communications lag is significant, and the ability to inform for demand reduced; local despecialization is the obvious and only logical recourse. As you get bigger, you need to get less trade in essentials because you can't know in time to find alternates before crucial failures.

In modern trade, gravity based:
Joe needs widgets for his factory to run.
Joe looks for widget suppliers, sends them a RFB.
Joe picks the bid he wants, orders and wires the money.
The supplier packs and ships those goods.

In pre-telegraph
Joe needs widgets.
Joe has to pick one of several modes
1) hire agent to go get widgets
2) order widgets well in advance
3) find a local alternative to widgets
4) buy what few widgets come in

In case 1, joe has to send a man to a specific widget source. He can't compare as well. He can, however, mitigate by sending money for 2/3rds of his expected demand each with 2 agents to different sources, and orders to wheedle it down as best as possible. Or 1/2 to each of 3, or 1/4 to each of 5. Enough so that no one supplier can cripple the factory by jacking widgets too high.

Case 2, he's now ordering not for current need, but projected need; he's speculating and taking far more of the risk upon himself, even than 1. If travel minimum is 1 week, he's got to order 3 weeks in advance (to allow for loading and shipping); at 3 weeks travel, 7 weeks in advance.

Case 3 might not be possible; long term, Joe's better off building a local widget factory in many (but not always most) cases.

Case 4 only works if widgets are flowing goods, or merchants know Joe needs widgets.

In any case, as the number of widget needing locals grows, the benefits of someone locally making widgets climbs, since "time is money"... the benefit of knowable local orders makes imports riskier; the local producer can be more responsive to fluctuations of need, and can deliver faster and with lower risks of loss.
 
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