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Future of 1977 -vs- Future of 2010?

But that's not FT's fault. It's a logical ramification of the population sizes. Trade with limited communication may involve more speculative cargo than freight, but the speculators are still going to have 700 million customers on Regina to buy their speculative goods.
Indeed. We also know (from Fighting Ships) that the major naval ships are in the 5,000-75,000 T range, and so it makes sense (to me at least) that the large cargo (and presumably passenger) vessels will be in the same range, especially those visiting Pop 9+ planets.

But I still don't see what's wrong with having a 25,000 T ship jump from Regina to Roup once a day with a couple of thousand passengers. Sure, we've never seen anything that big in any adventures to date, but then, one could write thick books about all the bits of the Traveller Universe that we haven't seen so far. Would the existence of such a monster liner ruin any canonical adventures? I don't think so. Would it ruin any canonical setting? I don't think so. Would it ruin anything? Not that I can spot. Would it, contrariwise, provided the same sort of potential for adventures that an ocean liner does? I do believe it might.
Very true. What we see in the vast majority of the GDW material is what is relevant to PCs, and PCs aren't piloting 10,000 T ship and they're also not typically competing with them.
 
Now I'd like to direct your attention to the specific assignment tables of the character generation system (p. 23 in my copy). Assuming those assignments are roughly proportional to the volume of shipping devoted to each category, and ignoring results of 'Transfer Down', 'Charter', 'Special Duty', 'No business', 'Smuggling', and 'Piracy', we find that for Large Lines, 83% are engaged on an established route, 10% are engaged in speculative trade and 7% are engaged in exploratory trade. For Small Lines it's 50% established routes, 32% speculative trade and 18% exploratory. And for Free Traders it's 60% established routes, 15% speculative trade, and 25% exploratory.
Those assumptions (especially for Large Lines) fit the idea of large bulk transport of goods based on pre-existing contracts. I'd definitely assume that this is the primary way that the masses of Regina get their lastest off-world gadgets. Or at least the lastest off-world gadgets from another world in the Spinward Marches.
 
Merchant Prince, I believe, does offhandedly state that there are 100,000 ton freighters in the Imperium. So even trade is a Big Ship concept, even though CT also implies that Small Ships are Important and Significant, at least to the sector level.

So while a squadron of 100kt freighters could easily consume the lion's share of all long-haul trade on a route, leaving scraps for small ships, it seems rather that small starships are more feasible in many typical routes. At the extreme end of this view, the need for 100kt freighters is very small, but the need is still there.
My PoV is that the importance of Small Ships matters only if you are looking at worlds instead of population. The vast majority of the Imperium's population is located on the Pop 9 & A worlds, and my belief is that Big Ships handle 95+% of trade between such worlds. However, there's also all the pop 4-8 worlds, where the inhabitants need goods and occasionally want to travel. It simply isn't economical for Big Ships to visit a Pop 6 world on anything remotely resembling a regular basis, which leaves lots of room for PC level ships to trade. So, most PC trade would be expected to go from either one low pop world to another or from a high pop world to a low pop world, which is definitely what we see in the material published by GDW.
 
John: a pop 6 world is millions of people. Alaska would be pop 5; we get lots of demand shipping; nearly a million Td worth at its 2005 peak in the Port of Anchorage alone. But that is demand based shipping.

Long term flows of massive amounts require both recourse in case of default and rapid flow of information; historically, until that communication was possible, demand shipping seldom happened. Most of those long-term trade flows with the big ships must overcome the problem of lack of recourse; this is easiest done by the megacorps. In point of fact, what canon I've seen on the matter shows big ships always operated by sector-wide or larger corporations, and where the details are shown, always shown owning both ends of the flow as well; in short, shipping internal to the corporation, which axiomatically is NOT trade, since ownership does not change. (It is shipping, but not trade.)

The real issue is "how prevalent is offworld trade"... at present, and not reflected at all in GTFT's model, the answer is "There is no offworld trade." That is an answer that GTFT does not provide in any but the very rarest cases. It's presuppositions are that market growth is proportional between off-world and on-world. I don't buy that, for the reasons upthread.

I genuinely see Regina as being most likely almost totally self supporting, simply due to the rapid pace of on-world commo vs the exceptionally slow pace of off-world. Anything on world can be bought on demand; it can be anywhere on world within 24 hours after manufacture, and can be manufactured as soon as the contract is signed.

(Already, the publishing industry is slowly migrating to low volume demand-based printing, especially for lesser known works; Lulu, and others, have shown it to be a viable economic model with costs only slightly higher than tradtional volume printing. Likewise, many older auto parts are being made to demand by fabricators in a matter of hours from receipt of payment; only when custom metals are needed is it delayed.)

As technology increases, I can't see that model not coming more and more to the fore. Custom computing device building is possible now; in point of fact, IBM has a one-off chipset printing facility used for in-house prototyping.

Further, such multi-function device printing capabilities are part of canon; TNE's World Tamer's Handbook.

In such an environment, the needed items must be significantly cheaper to merit importation with the delay factors, because you not only must overcome the cost of shipping, but also the "impulse buy factor"...
 
Hi

Regarding humanform robots, doesn't Book 8 say;

"Expert Robots: These robots are basically computers computers programmed to function as "expert" systems, with the addition of sophlsticated perifierals to achieve the desired results. Expert robots are often used to replace expensive sentient professionals, particularly in the medical field. These robots are sometimes found in a contoured or pseudo-biological configuration. An expert robot has a skill level of 4 in its prlmary ability.

Servant: In the Imperium servant robots are popular an very high tech worlds. For example. Naasirka retails a standard model tech level 15 servant robot with an intelligence of 5 and education of 1 for Cr77,500. The robot has a humanoid contoured chassis, understands basic commands, and has the equivalent of Steward-1, Valet-1, Vehicle-1, and Emotion Simulation. Over three-quarters of the cost is for brain and software."

[Italics and underlines added for emphasis]

This would imply to me that humanform robots would be somewhat common in parts of the Imperium.

Regards

PF
 
John: a pop 6 world is millions of people. Alaska would be pop 5; we get lots of demand shipping; nearly a million Td worth at its 2005 peak in the Port of Anchorage alone. But that is demand based shipping.
Certainly, but we're also talking about 1,000 times fewer potential customers than on a Pop 9 world, with similar reductions in trade.

Long term flows of massive amounts require both recourse in case of default and rapid flow of information; historically, until that communication was possible, demand shipping seldom happened. Most of those long-term trade flows with the big ships must overcome the problem of lack of recourse; this is easiest done by the megacorps. In point of fact, what canon I've seen on the matter shows big ships always operated by sector-wide or larger corporations, and where the details are shown, always shown owning both ends of the flow as well; in short, shipping internal to the corporation, which axiomatically is NOT trade, since ownership does not change. (It is shipping, but not trade.)

The real issue is "how prevalent is offworld trade"... at present, and not reflected at all in GTFT's model, the answer is "There is no offworld trade." That is an answer that GTFT does not provide in any but the very rarest cases. It's presuppositions are that market growth is proportional between off-world and on-world. I don't buy that, for the reasons upthread.

I genuinely see Regina as being most likely almost totally self supporting, simply due to the rapid pace of on-world commo vs the exceptionally slow pace of off-world. Anything on world can be bought on demand; it can be anywhere on world within 24 hours after manufacture, and can be manufactured as soon as the contract is signed.
I completely agree. Except in rare occasions, I don't see most trade being in day to day necessities. Instead, it will be what long (relative) distance trade has always been about - luxuries, oddities, and suchlike. So, everything from some spice grown on a world 4 parsecs away to the latest fad gadget from 2 subsectors away (and which must be manufactured on the world it's being shipped from because that world refuses to license off-world manufacturing to boost their balance of trade). The issue is that this trade in spices, luxury snacks (ala caviar), designer clothing, high end consumer gadgets, art, and suchlike is going to be sufficiently large on a pop 9 or A world that it will be worth large merchant lines sending 10,000+ T freighters to meet that demand. When trading with a world with a population of 7 billion, being able to ship 28 million of the latest popular high end consumer gadget asap makes you lots of money. Assuming that each package takes up 1 liter, that's 2,000 T just to ship that many copies of that one gadget, and you can assume that fads being what they are, there will be lots of this sort of trade, and it's going to be in large ships.

For a pop 6 world, getting the same gadget into the hands of one in 25 individuals (as opposed to 1 in 250 on the pop 9 world) would only take 20 T, which fits nicely in the cargo hold of a Far Trader.
 
Regarding humanform robots, doesn't Book 8 say; (snip)



PFVA63,

And didn't I already write...

Robots which need to interact closely and continually with sophonts on an intimately personal level, i.e. valets, will be shaped like the sophonts they serve.

... in an earlier post in this very thread?

Doctors and valets? Sounds like the robots in questions are interacting closely and continually on an intimately personal level, doesn't it?

This would imply to me that humanform robots would be somewhat common in parts of the Imperium.

No. It implies that robots performing certain jobs are humaniform because that job requires them to be so. Form follows function.

There are literally hundreds of thousands of jobs performed by robots in the Third Imperium. Only a small number of those jobs necessitate that the robots be humaniform.

As I also already wrote in this thread:

Robots are not rare, but only rare robots are noticed.


Regards,
Bill
 
John: somewhere in canon is a throwaway reference that the imperium does NOT protect technology patents between worlds... So the whole "no license" doesn't work; only careful construction to prevent opening and reverse engineering. I'll see if I can find it, but it's in an odd place (I just can't remember WHICH odd place).

That's one of the big problems with the OTU... lots of throwaway references in adventures.
 
Long term flows of massive amounts require both recourse in case of default and rapid flow of information; historically, until that communication was possible, demand shipping seldom happened.
I think that point has been made and mostly accepted. I can come up with scenarios that make demand shipping happen (e.g. a world has an emergency store of grain in case of worldwide harvest failure; when that happens, it opens its stores and orders more grain from offworld to replenish them; agricultural experts predict that the harvest will fail and that there'll be a grain shortage in six months time; construction boom causes on-world suppliers to be unable to fill orders and building new factories would take longer than shipping in from four worlds over), but it's certainly going to be reduced in scope.

Most of those long-term trade flows with the big ships must overcome the problem of lack of recourse; this is easiest done by the megacorps. In point of fact, what canon I've seen on the matter shows big ships always operated by sector-wide or larger corporations, and where the details are shown, always shown owning both ends of the flow as well; in short, shipping internal to the corporation, which axiomatically is NOT trade, since ownership does not change. (It is shipping, but not trade.)
I could give you an argument about that (Tukera buys stuff from someone on Rhylanor, ships it to Regina and sells to to someone there; how is that not trade?), but I don't see any problem with calling it shipping instead of trade. Surely the salient factor in figuring out how big a merchant fleet is used to ship stuff is how much stuff is shipped? Cargo or freight, what difference does it make?

The real issue is "how prevalent is offworld trade"... at present, and not reflected at all in GTFT's model, the answer is "There is no offworld trade."
That's an answer that makes no sense. If someone ships a crate of widgets from one world to another, then someone on the first world sold the crate and someone on the second world bought it[*]. The existence of freighters prove the existence of trade. And since there are mention of megafreghters in CT sources, "mega-trade" is a canonical fact, even if details are rather sparse.

[*] Unless there are no sale in widgets on the second world, but in that case those megafreighters would stop moving crates of widgets).​

That is an answer that GTFT does not provide in any but the very rarest cases. It's presuppositions are that market growth is proportional between off-world and on-world. I don't buy that, for the reasons upthread.
FT provides a basic framework. I'm sure some of the details are off in some cases. But then, any time you use a set of tables only, instead of starting with the tables and applying human thoughts to vet the results, you're going to get details wrong. Sometimes horrendously wrong.

I genuinely see Regina as being most likely almost totally self supporting, simply due to the rapid pace of on-world commo vs the exceptionally slow pace of off-world. Anything on world can be bought on demand; it can be anywhere on world within 24 hours after manufacture, and can be manufactured as soon as the contract is signed.
Comparative advantage. Local produce. Gimmicks[*].
[*] Capital Brandy: A brand of Reginan nutberry brandy marketed exclusively by Starburst Spice & Liquor Co. Selected vintages are shipped in casks all the way to Capital, where it is bottled by Selena Wineries, vintners to the Emperor himself, then shipped back to Regina, where it is sold to connoisseurs who aver that the many trips through jumpspace adds a subtle flavor unmatched by any other liquor.​

In such an environment, the needed items must be significantly cheaper to merit importation with the delay factors, because you not only must overcome the cost of shipping, but also the "impulse buy factor"...
No, they just need to be slightly cheaper, provided the market for them can be anticipated. As in "Efate has always made better dingusses, so there is no point in starting up a dingus factory here on Regina, because Oberlindes ships in all the dingusses we need at competitive prices".


Hans
 
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Hi

Hi,

My concerns about limitations on the extent of humanform robots I guess stems from a couple of reasons.

First, per canon even if typical everyday objects have some form of automation and intelligence things like starships, shuttles, air/raft, ATVs, and ground vehicles (etc) prior to the publication of Book 8 all also require a sentient being to operate as a pilot, navigator, driver, and/or engineer, etc. Upon publication of Book 8 it became possible to replace the sentient being with a robot programmed to perform those functions. And in Book 8, under Robot Encounters, it specifically indicates that Robots may be encountered in a variety of roles including janitorial, housekeeping, clerks, law enforcement, pilots, navigators, engineers, and drivers to name but a few. Many, if not most of these areas of encounter may also be areas where one might also expect to encounter a human (or some other sentient species) performing such duties (perhaps depending on what planet and or tech level you are adventuring near). Also, per Book 8 it appears that it is possible to build robots with skills in more than one area. As such a question arises as to what form a robot performing some of these tasks might take. It may well be possible that the best pilot "robot" may be little more than a brain a interface that plugs directly into a sraship's control hardware (perhaps using a special hardwired interface or perhaps some form of futuristic USB interface - kind of like the arm R2D2 used to interface with different computers in the Star Wars movies). There would be little need for such a device to be self-mobile and I guess some could argue whether it truly meets the definition of a robot, however such units are specifically allowed (and described) in book 8.

Similarly, if I want a pilot for my shuttle craft I could also procure another similar such unit to be housed within the shuttle craft and perform those functions. The same could go for any air/raft or ground vehicle (such as an ATV) that I might have on my ship. An issue arises though in that when not in use each of these dedicated/non-mobile "robots" would sit idle, and I couldn't really use them for much anything else, such as assisting me in engineering or life support system repairs, when not in use (sometimes an extra set of hands can be handy even if the person or robot is not specificaly trained as a plumber or electrician, they can still hold your tools and/or assit in moving things out ofthe way, etc). As such, there could be a market for a single unit that can do multiple tasks such as being a starship pilot when the ship is underway, but also an air/raft driver or ATV driver when off the ship.

Such a "robot" would likely need to be self-mobile and capable of traversing through the same corriders as a human (or whatever sentient species the starship and vehicles are designed to accommodate). Similarly, unless it is intended that the starship and vehicles be only driven/piloted by the robot, it is likely that these vehciles/craft would be configured for use by a human (or other specific sentient species). As such, there probably would be a great deal of benefit in having the robot be near the same size as a human (or what ever species you are playing) with similar interfaces to the outside world (arms, legs, hands, etc) so that he/it could use the same interfaces and controls that the human (or other species) uses to control the ship/vechicle/ or craft. This would give the robot the added benefit of being able to interface with other similar craft (such as rental cars and/or air/rafts etc) without needing any special interfaces other than what it normally provided for the human (or other species) driver/pilot. Additionally such a robot would have some benefits over a hardwired/non-mobile "robot" in that he doesn't have to go along for the ride if not needed. (IE, if you are off on an adventure and there is only enough room in you air/raft for the adventurers the mobile robot could stay on the ship, while one of the adventurers pilots the air/raft).

Second, if I were the head of a robot building company and I wanted to develop a line (or several lines) of robots to perform certain duties ranging from simple janitorial tasks up to being a starship pilot, I suspect that I would look at specialized robots for each task, but I also suspect that I would look at a standardized line of robots (perhaps based off common components or chases) that could be custom configured to do different tasks depending on how they are programmed and what accessories are added. In looking at the list of robot encounters in book 8 one thing that comes across is that many of the areas listed are areas where you might as easily encounter a human (or other similar species). As such, for some (or perhaps many) of these tasks a robot that can at a minimum access the same areas, and use the same tools/interfaces/equipment and/or weapons as a human may have some benefits. Which would suggest that there may be markets for humanform robots in these areas. This doesn't mean that I am suggesting, for instance, that all police bots will be human form robots, as I suspect that there will be many areas in law enforcement that a more dedicated unit would have advantages (such as modern tracked vehicle explosive ordinance disposal robots). However, it does suggest to me that in some areas of law enforcement a robot that at a minimum can drive the same vehicles as a human officer, use the same weapons and tools as a human officer, and fit in the same passageways and accesses as a human officer may be of use and perhaps common in many areas.

Third, according to book 8 the average life of a robot is about 85 years (if I am recalling correctly). As such it would seem to me that there might well be a reasonable after market for used robots, especially if technology makes certain top of the line stuff obsolete in its original intended purpose. In such a market, the utility of a humanform robot that could be reprogrammed for alternate duties would seem to be greater than say a single purposestarship pilot bot, automobile plant line-welder, semi-stationary cargo bot, smart toaster, or intelligent vacuum. As such, it may well be possible that formerly top of the line hamnform Servant or Expert bots may find an after-market uses in a variety of other fields.

Forth, even currently on Earth early stage work is ongoing in the fields of exo-skeletons and mechanised artifical limbs, etc for the use of indiviuals who may have either lost their own limbs orwho never had use of them. To me it seems logical that such research likely could be easily leveraged for use in humanform robots, either in the present day or in the 57th century, where technology developed for Battledress and Combat Armor could be leveraged into use for humanform robots.

In the end I'm not saying that I think humanform robots would be the predominate type of robot in a Traveller setting nor am I saying that they would be limited to only a small niche. More correctly I think my point of view is that in some ways they may be like the smart phones of today (like the Android & iPhone) in comparison to other gadgets and devices. Specifically, a modern smart phone is typically relatively expensive but multi-functional and can be used as both a cellphone, a web-browser, video and/or still camera, clock/watch, portable GPS, PDA, music player, video player, and/or portable game system, and also can have some limited? computing ability/ability to run certain apps. The existance of these smart phones does not mean that relatively simple and cheap cell phones do not exists (just check any 7-11 convenience store) or that people no longer use stand alone cameras, GPS units, music or video players, portable game systems or portable computers. Basically all the above co-exist together and in some areas the use of a multifunction smart phone may be more prelevent that using seperate systems, but in other areas or for other people having a cheaper phone and perhaps a couple other gadgets may make more sense. (I for one still use a very simple phone, a stand alone GPS and stand alone camera plus my Tablet PC for most my needs, while several of my friends and familiy have actually migrated to an iPhone instead for much the same uses).

In other words, I think my point of view is that humanform robots will not just be limited to certain niche areas and while specific dedicated bots and smart equipment/machinery will exist, they will exist alongside humanform robots in many areas.

Regards

PF
 
Comparative advantage. Local produce. Gimmicks[*].
[*] Capital Brandy: A brand of Reginan nutberry brandy marketed exclusively by Starburst Spice & Liquor Co. Selected vintages are shipped in casks all the way to Capital, where it is bottled by Selena Wineries, vintners to the Emperor himself, then shipped back to Regina, where it is sold to connoisseurs who aver that the many trips through jumpspace adds a subtle flavor unmatched by any other liquor.​

Hans

Add in the social snobbery involved in drinking something that "is served at the Imperial Court"... without regard to the fact of where it is made.

It is not the contents that are important, it is the label.

How many times here on Sol II in the present era have you seen inferior products being considered more desirable and "high-class" simply because they were made in a particular nation, or by a particular corporation?

Does a $5,000 Rolex keep better time than a $50 Timex?


On the other hand... I have consumed both the Japanese-made Gekkeikan Sake and the California-made Gekkeikan Sake... and there IS a definite difference in their taste.

I will gladly pay the extra to get the imported version... because there IS a difference.


Note: I tasted the difference before I read the label and saw the change in origin.
 
[...] I think my point of view is that in some ways [human-form robots] may be like the smart phones of today (like the Android & iPhone) in comparison to other gadgets and devices.

When they start filling roles required of people, I prefer to think of them like people rather than machines: they have their own personalities and motivations, though perhaps with little or no history, but require compensation just like any skilled person in a profession.
 
In other words, I think my point of view is that humanform robots will not just be limited to certain niche areas and while specific dedicated bots and smart equipment/machinery will exist, they will exist alongside humanform robots in many areas.


PFVA63,

That viewpoint ignores the substantial cost of putting a certain level of function within a humaniform package. And the level of expensive official interest in the form of licensing and inspection which a piloting/driving robot would be subject to on most worlds.

You're also confusing the world of adventurers with the world of hoi polloi.

Just as chargen doesn't produce show salesmen, LBB:8 doesn't produce the vast majority of robots at work in the 57th Century. You can't use LBB:8 to produce the robotic apartment block I routinely bring up in these discussions, but you can use it to produce the rare robots that get noticed as robots in the 57th Century.

Do multi-purpose humaniform robots exist in the 57th Century? Most certainly.

Are they a tiny fraction of the number of robots at work in the 57th Century? Again, most certainly.

That's my point here. The robots that the inhabitants of the 57th Century actually see as robots are very rare. Nearly all robots are toasters or telephone poles(1), items that are only noticed when the function they perform is missed.


Regards,
Bill

1 - It never fails to amuse me when some soccer mom bleats in a town meeting about a proposal to erect an "ugly" cell phone tower when there are thousands of equally ugly telephone poles within a 5km radius of her MacMansion. Those poles are quite literally beneath her notice and only enter her notice when they fail.
 
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When they start filling roles required of people, I prefer to think of them like people rather than machines: they have their own personalities and motivations, though perhaps with little or no history, but require compensation just like any skilled person in a profession.

The problem with this is that you have to be very clear about where you draw the line between Sophont and Mere Machine.

It is commendable that you wish to avoid creating an entire race of slaves, but the legal/moral issue of AI is always about which is the primary and which is the qualifier: Is it "artificial" intelligence, or artificial "intelligence"?

In the first case you are dealing with a sophont -- with all the attendant rights and responsibilities thereof. In the second case, you are dealing with an autonomous machine that merely mimics the mental, decision-making processes of a sophont, and must be supervised by a sophont (especially if the machine is armed -- IRoW, et cetera).
 
Hi

PFVA63,

That viewpoint ignores the substantial cost of putting a certain level of function within a humaniform package.

Not really. A contoured chasis type only has a bit greater cost modifier than a sphere, dome or cone chasis and this modifier only affects te cost of the chasis.

And the level of expensive official interest in the form of licensing and inspection which a piloting/driving robot would be subject to on most worlds.

I don't really see why it would be any different than a non-humanform robot in the same role (and even less so if they are common).

You're also confusing the world of adventurers with the world of hoi polloi.

Not really. Book 8 says that a typical robot has a life expectancy of between 10 and 85 years. And under the heading of Servant robots it notes that if a tech level 15 robot with an 85 year life expectancy is bought on a 40 year loan it will cost a person about 10 Cr per day while paying off the loan, and about 1 Cr per day after the loan is paid off. This alone suggests to me that there will be a rich market in used robots, even contoured humanoid chasis Servant bots and/or Expert bots. Add to this the fact that in current times on Earth many luxury items (such as cars, boats, airplanes, and helicopters, etc) get sold off and replaced long before the end of their useful lives by those with the money to buy such items, suggests and aftermarket for used items like these even more. I, for instance, but my first car used.

Just as chargen doesn't produce show salesmen, LBB:8 doesn't produce the vast majority of robots at work in the 57th Century. You can't use LBB:8 to produce the robotic apartment block I routinely bring up in these discussions, but you can use it to produce the rare robots that get noticed as robots in the 57th Century.

I believe that you can build many of the subcomponents of such a system. For instance, rather than treating a robotically controlled starship as a single entity, you can instead build the pilot bot, navigator bot, engineer bot, and other components required for the ship and have them controlled/report to an administrator expert bot. In such a case, each bot vould be a fixed brain and chasis unit or some other configuration (such as a master and slave(s) unit for the engineering section) as the designer sees fit. It would seem to me that a robotic apartment building could be similarly modeled.

Do multi-purpose humaniform robots exist in the 57th Century? Most certainly.

Are they a tiny fraction of the number of robots at work in the 57th Century? Again, most certainly.

That's my point here. The robots that the inhabitants of the 57th Century actually see as robots are very rare. Nearly all robots are toasters or telephone poles(1), items that are only noticed when the function they perform is missed.

I guess this is where you and I disagree. Based on what I've read in book 8, my previous posts, and what I have stated above, I see no reason why simple contoured chasis robots (either new or previously owned and reprogrammed fo new tasks) wouldn't be considered very useful and thus found in a wide variety of tasks in the 57th century.

Regards

PF
 
The problem with this is that you have to be very clear about where you draw the line between Sophont and Mere Machine.

It is commendable that you wish to avoid creating an entire race of slaves, but the legal/moral issue of AI is always about which is the primary and which is the qualifier: Is it "artificial" intelligence, or artificial "intelligence"?

In the first case you are dealing with a sophont -- with all the attendant rights and responsibilities thereof. In the second case, you are dealing with an autonomous machine that merely mimics the mental, decision-making processes of a sophont, and must be supervised by a sophont (especially if the machine is armed -- IRoW, et cetera).

That question may make the OTU more interesting.
 
I guess this is where you and I disagree.


PFVA63,

Actually, I don't think we need to do that because I suddenly realized that we are talking about two different things.

I'm explaining the OTU and you're fixing the OTU. (Which I believe needs to be fixed too, by the way.)

Where I've come up with a way to explain away the problem of the OTU's missing robots by suggesting that only rare robots get noticed as robots, you've actually fixed the problem of the OTU's missing robots by wisely adding more robots.

I've been talking purely about the OTU and you've been talking purely about personal TUs. We've been talking about two very different things.


Regards,
Bill
 
>How many times here on Sol II in the present era

welcome Venusian overlord !

Humaniform robots ..... c3po vs functional mobile robot .... r2d2

Come to think of it thats probaby a bad example since r2d2 is supposed to substitute for a human astrogator so he'd have to fit a humanoid cockpit.

Form surely has to follow function in most cases ? I could see an r2d2 with knee joints (ie some kind of legs but still no head or real arms) being the norm for that task
 
The problem with this is that you have to be very clear about where you draw the line between Sophont and Mere Machine.

It is commendable that you wish to avoid creating an entire race of slaves, but the legal/moral issue of AI is always about which is the primary and which is the qualifier: Is it "artificial" intelligence, or artificial "intelligence"?

In the first case you are dealing with a sophont -- with all the attendant rights and responsibilities thereof. In the second case, you are dealing with an autonomous machine that merely mimics the mental, decision-making processes of a sophont, and must be supervised by a sophont (especially if the machine is armed -- IRoW, et cetera).

I may have to dig out my masters thesis: The Ethics of Artificial Intelligence (no, really, that WAS my thesis!). Bottom line (at that time) was that if there was no discernible difference via any sort of Turing test you could devise, then an artificial intelligence was ethically the same as a natural intelligence and should be accorded the same rights and so forth. (Of course, in several SF books, particularly Larry Niven, most AI commit suicide: not enough input after a while & they essentially go crazy. And then there is the 'close enough' to AI that is more expert machine with a layer of human-style interface on top of that to make interactions easier, but could not be considered actually intelligent or a sophont. Or the idea that we are part of AI evolution: we build an AI, it builds a smarter AI, which in turn builds yet a smarter one, and eventually you have SkyNet...err, the Singularity, or something where bodies are no longer particularly needed or used - we live in some virtual universe [which, according to some mathmeticians, we may be in anyway! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulated_reality]).

And as for the R2-D2 example: you will notice that most Star Wars ships had special compartments for these astromechs, so as Bill indicates: they are like toasters and just part of the fabric of the universe, not particularly noticed unless something goes wrong.

Now it has been 25+ years since I've actually *played* Traveller, but we never really used robots back in the day. They were around as background services, perhaps, but no one paid any attention to them.
 
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