Future Plans - Licensing?

[aramis]

Been reading D20 SRD from WotC. Is there a QLI or FFE Trav SRD document?

Not for T20. You'll need to carefully read the OGL text in T20 to figure out what is and is not open. I know that the ship construction and world generation are not open content (but the results are).

There is a Mongoose Traveller SRD (under the Developer's Pack download link on their Traveller line page).

 

[savage]

Not for T20. You'll need to carefully read the OGL text in T20 to figure out what is and is not open. I know that the ship construction and world generation are not open content (but the results are).

There is a Mongoose Traveller SRD (under the Developer's Pack download link on their Traveller line page).

I'll check that out. It's the opposite of what i expected.

 

[Tikon]

The T20 CD finally came out!
Are you talking about creating ships for it? Or writing adventures for it?

 

[savage]

The T20 CD finally came out!
Are you talking about creating ships for it? Or writing adventures for it?

I already have many T20 ships about 1/3 of which are on my old website and
I have adventures i could formalize for Traveller. So, I have been reading through SRDs and evaluating options. I'm not sure people want more T20. MgT certainly tried to end it.

 

[aramis]

I already have many T20 ships about 1/3 of which are on my old website and
I have adventures i could formalize for Traveller. So, I have been reading through SRDs and evaluating options. I'm not sure people want more T20. MgT certainly tried to end it.

Mongoose actively demanded an end to ALL other direct licensees. It came down to a special exception for SJG; T20 was blocked by the Mongoose contract from renewal. Hunter wasn't able to get new product out the door readily at the time, and so didn't fight it. (The MJD/Hunter "feud" was getting to a visible point. Hunter was also having troubles with GRIP.)

 

[savage]

Mongoose actively demanded an end to ALL other direct licensees. It came down to a special exception for SJG; T20 was blocked by the Mongoose contract from renewal. Hunter wasn't able to get new product out the door readily at the time, and so didn't fight it. (The MJD/Hunter "feud" was getting to a visible point. Hunter was also having troubles with GRIP.)

Ah yes, I recall some of it. Pretty sad considering the amount of effort MJD poured into T20. MJD said Hunter owed him money. Hunter was ill but we didn't know it...and the rest is history ;(

I'm not finished reviewing MgT SDR. That is why small publishers go through Mongoose. There are several options.

 

[savage]

I've read the SDR, etc.
People are probably turned off my some negative verbiage. MgT can order the publisher to destroy all of their product, on a whim. I'm sure that's protection but ouch.

Honestly one free sector for writing doesn't make much sense. There's an entire galaxy. It's a bit short sighted.

This has all the look of standard outsourcing. FFE has 2 people and a few volunteers that cannot deal with more than 1-2 sub publishers. Mongoose is an organization that can do the support as GDW was once. But taking competitive products off the market does not "expand" the user base.
As far as I can tell the user base is about the same as 10 years ago or even a bit lower.

 

[savage]

While I am not familiar with the workings of any other third party publishers, both Avenger and Spica have had no issues with publishing items through the MgT SDR open license ... it is only when you want to write stuff tied to the Third Imperium (OTU) that serious restrictions kick in. I know MJD has generally chosen to avoid most OTU projects to avoid the OTU headaches that go with it, but it has been discussed as an option, so it can be done.

[CAVEAT: This was true when I had the time to work closely with Avenger, but is slightly out of date now... so I do not speak for Avenger or Spica, just my personal experience working with them.]

First, thank you for your openness. I had intended on dropping you a note.
I have nothing against MgT. I was not too happy to see limits on GT and T20 reducing their product lines, because I believe that does not encourage growth of traveler. GT was great for bringing in Gurps players and T20 for WotC/D20 players. If T5 is a re-envisioning of T4 and MgT a re-envisioning of CT/MT then there is plenty of room for other lines. Specifically, if the adventurers are written open. Looking at the number of mixed version campaigns is a fine example of diversity among Traveller refs.

The verbiage looks pretty typical for subcontractor relations IMO. It protects the product owner(FFE)/outsourcer(Mongoose) completely, of course. If products are approved for sale before being published, there is no reason to ask a vendor to destroy all of their stock. IMO it discourages vendors and is a negative statement.

The question comes up, who are the FFE T5 writers working through, FFE or Mongoose? I suppose if it's FFE published we have a clear answer.

I thought, Avenger or Spica are your entities. I did not realize you we're a writer not writer/editor/partner. You might try a more detailed COTI signature.

 

[atpollard]

First, thank you for your openness. I had intended on dropping you a note.

No problem.
It is ironic that you were commenting on the post while I was deleting it because I wasn't sure if it really contributed to the discussion.
... well, I found it amusing.

I thought, Avenger or Spica are your entities. I did not realize you we're a writer not writer/editor/partner. You might try a more detailed COTI signature.

I have a strange relationship with both companies.
First and foremost, I was and am a fan of what they produce.
From there, I have been an artist for both of them ... mostly deckplans.

The real estate bust of 2008 has finally started to come to an end here in Florida and I am really busy (Architect/Civil Engineer/Land Planner) ... unfortunately, too busy to become an anchor on Avenger production (MJD is red hot right now and writing like crazy).

With Spica, I guess I am more of a consultant.
I have lots of opinions on lots of issues and am perfectly willing to share them.

... But mostly, I just really like what Spica and Avenger produce.


With respect to the whole license history issue, I always treat what I hear with a large grain of salt.
It is always amusing to hear both sides of a story and compare how each side sees it.
And I know from personal experience the frustration of knowing something being said isn't quite accurate, but being bound to silence by both ethics and a NDA.

That aside, I agree that more Traveller rules systems and more system-less adventures is probably a good combination.

One thing that I would advise is to communicate directly with either Marc Miller (if your idea needs FFE approval ... like a Traveller SF book) or Matt (if you want to do something in the OTU using the Foreven license or Mongoose Traveller license). I have had some interaction with each of them and lots of interaction with people who deal with them more regularly and I've yet to hear that they were unreasonable. Most of the projects done by third parties and published thru Mongoose that I am aware of were done that way to generate more sales rather than any licensing strong arming.

I don't do the numbers, so I don't know how it all panned out financially, but both SPICA and Avenger are still talking to and working with Mongoose, so things must not have gone too bad.

 

[savage]

No problem.
It is ironic that you were commenting on the post while I was deleting it because I wasn't sure if it really contributed to the discussion.
... well, I found it amusing.

I have a strange relationship with both companies.
First and foremost, I was and am a fan of what they produce.
From there, I have been an artist for both of them ... mostly deckplans.

The real estate bust of 2008 has finally started to come to an end here in Florida and I am really busy (Architect/Civil Engineer/Land Planner) ... unfortunately, too busy to become an anchor on Avenger production (MJD is red hot right now and writing like crazy).

With Spica, I guess I am more of a consultant.
I have lots of opinions on lots of issues and am perfectly willing to share them.

... But mostly, I just really like what Spica and Avenger produce.


With respect to the whole license history issue, I always treat what I hear with a large grain of salt.
It is always amusing to hear both sides of a story and compare how each side sees it.
And I know from personal experience the frustration of knowing something being said isn't quite accurate, but being bound to silence by both ethics and a NDA.

That aside, I agree that more Traveller rules systems and more system-less adventures is probably a good combination.

One thing that I would advise is to communicate directly with either Marc Miller (if your idea needs FFE approval ... like a Traveller SF book) or Matt (if you want to do something in the OTU using the Foreven license or Mongoose Traveller license). I have had some interaction with each of them and lots of interaction with people who deal with them more regularly and I've yet to hear that they were unreasonable. Most of the projects done by third parties and published thru Mongoose that I am aware of were done that way to generate more sales rather than any licensing strong arming.

I don't do the numbers, so I don't know how it all panned out financially, but both SPICA and Avenger are still talking to and working with Mongoose, so things must not have gone too bad.

I'm sure MJD holds things together. I've had ideas I've wanted to work on for some time. While Hunter was around i didn't have time and now with Hunter being gone there is no QLI. I reached out to Marc and he dropped me a note. I want to start there. Products that are multi-rule set are the best IMO.

 

[savage]

Here is a good question.
How do people propose a project idea and protect that idea?

 

[MJD]

I'm sure MJD holds things together. .

Huh?

Not sure what you mean by that. I do bang rocks together from to time, is that it?

 

[savage]

Huh?

Not sure what you mean by that.

Sorry for the brevity.
I meant that you "kept the light burning". For a while you were the one keeping Travellers moving forward IMO. Many of the works are excellent.

I bang
rocks together from to time, is that it?

:rofl:

 

[savage]

Here is a good question.
How do people propose a project idea and protect that idea?

No takers? All the experienced folks here.

A proposal should be more than an email to Mongoose or Marc.

 

[atpollard]

Here is a good question.
How do people propose a project idea and protect that idea?

I have no idea how the change of ownership impacted this policy, but (once upon a time) on this website ... you don't. Any idea or data expressed on the board became fair game for QLI to use. I do not think that the intention was ever to shaft anyone. I suspect that Hunter was looking to avoid any potential lawsuit arising from any discussion of an in-development QLI product. Nonetheless, what you posted here once became the non-exclusive property of QLI.

I know that FFE maintains a similar policy for a completely different reason. COTI retails the right to maintain whatever you post with no challenge to your ownership. This is done for the purpose of protecting COTI from some demand that 'I want everything that I ever wrote completely deleted, including every response that quotes something that I wrote'. Thus COTI retains the right to keep whatever you wrote posted (the alternative is a ton of work for moderators and a trail of topics left gutted and incomprehensible).

I am not a lawyer and this is not a legal opinion, advice or official statement on COTI, QLI or FFE policy.
This is just one member expressing his recollection and understanding of how things once worked and how they currently work.

To the original question, there is only so much that can be done. If Mongoose announces that it is working on a book called 'Robot Spies', there is nothing to prevent every member of COTI from suddenly working on a DTRPG PDF book about robot spies. On the other hand, VERY few ideas are actually original. Usually, many someones have thought of something similar or even identical at various times in the past. What usually differentiates them is whether anything ever gets done with the idea and the quality of the execution of that idea.

With respect to contacting Marc at FFE of Matthew at Mongoose, it is very unlikely that they are suffering from a serious lack of ideas and will need to steal some good ones that people send in as a proposal. I suspect that a shortage of writers, illustrators, editors and layout people are what restricts the flow of new products.

Does that answer any of your question?

 

[rancke]

To the original question, there is only so much that can be done. If Mongoose announces that it is working on a book called 'Robot Spies', there is nothing to prevent every member of COTI from suddenly working on a DTRPG PDF book about robot spies. On the other hand, VERY few ideas are actually original. Usually, many someones have thought of something similar or even identical at various times in the past. What usually differentiates them is whether anything ever gets done with the idea and the quality of the execution of that idea.

That's right. Ideas are cheap. It's the work turning the ideas into something useable that's worth something.

In my opinion, if you work in someone else's universe, he and everyone authorized by him to work in his universe ought to be entitled to use your ideas without let or hindrance¹. Ideas, mind you, not your actual words.

(But keep in mind that plagiarism and copyright violation are two different things. You can be fully entitled to use an idea and still need to acknowledge where you got it from, and copyright violation is illegal even with impeccable attribution. Even if the idea is nothing more original than the juxtaposition of two common tropes, you might as well acknowledge the origin. It avoids complications.)

¹ I know copyright law doesn't support that opinion, so I try to remember to include a disclaimer to that effect whenever I post something a bit more substantive than loose ideas.​

I must have note files on at least a hundred different articles. From time to time I have posted some of them here on CotI in the hope that someone else might be inspired to use them, but so far that hasn't happened, alas.


Hans

 

[savage]

I have no idea how the change of ownership impacted this policy, but (once upon a time) on this website ... you don't. Any idea or data expressed on the board became fair game for QLI to use. I do not think that the intention was ever to shaft anyone. I suspect that Hunter was looking to avoid any potential lawsuit arising from any discussion of an in-development QLI product. Nonetheless, what you posted here once became the non-exclusive property of QLI.

I know that FFE maintains a similar policy for a completely different reason. COTI retails the right to maintain whatever you post with no challenge to your ownership. This is done for the purpose of protecting COTI from some demand that 'I want everything that I ever wrote completely deleted, including every response that quotes something that I wrote'. Thus COTI retains the right to keep whatever you wrote posted (the alternative is a ton of work for moderators and a trail of topics left gutted and incomprehensible).

I am not a lawyer and this is not a legal opinion, advice or official statement on COTI, QLI or FFE policy.
This is just one member expressing his recollection and understanding of how things once worked and how they currently work.

To the original question, there is only so much that can be done. If Mongoose announces that it is working on a book called 'Robot Spies', there is nothing to prevent every member of COTI from suddenly working on a DTRPG PDF book about robot spies. On the other hand, VERY few ideas are actually original. Usually, many someones have thought of something similar or even identical at various times in the past. What usually differentiates them is whether anything ever gets done with the idea and the quality of the execution of that idea.

With respect to contacting Marc at FFE of Matthew at Mongoose, it is very unlikely that they are suffering from a serious lack of ideas and will need to steal some good ones that people send in as a proposal. I suspect that a shortage of writers, illustrators, editors and layout people are what restricts the flow of new products.

Does that answer any of your question?

So many good points, but not what i was asking. I don't know where to begin. It's really a matter of process that I'm inquiring. Posts on QLI that are covered by previous copyright are what they are. I agree there was a day when QLI was the only thing on the board, Hunter was paying for the board and that was it.

No original ideas? Really. I would not expect anyone to release the details of their latest project. And I don't think you would expect it based on the response.

But to encourage writers and productions it is interesting to ask how experienced product designers like to submit proposals, partner with other writers and any other quirks that may not have been considered by the novice.

As for me, I wrote one product for T2K as a partnership. It's different and as a contributor to Avengers/Spica you may have different experiences.
For a partnership I would say establish the project under a written agreement, documenting timeline, finances and expectations. I really cannot voice any comments on submittal of the proposal. My partner (A GDW employee) and I spoke with Loren personally and that was it. I am certain it was not the best approach.

 

[atpollard]

So many good points, but not what I was asking. I don't know where to begin. It's really a matter of process that I'm inquiring.

As for me, I wrote one product for T2K as a partnership. It's different and as a contributor to Avengers/Spica you may have different experiences.

For a partnership I would say establish the project under a written agreement, documenting timeline, finances and expectations. I really cannot voice any comments on submittal of the proposal. My partner (A GDW employee) and I spoke with Loren personally and that was it. I am certain it was not the best approach.

OK, “process” and “where to begin”. Hopefully, someone with more experience will weigh in, but until then, here are some personal experiences and thoughts:

I suspect that there are dozens of ways that this is handled, but I can only comment on what I have done. The funniest was how I became involved with drawing for Avenger Enterprises (MJD). Once upon a time, I was having a bad day in general and commented to MJD (who had just gone through a very public fight over royalties/pay) that I had joined the ranks of professionals … I had been stiffed on pay for work that I had done. He mentioned that he had lots of stuff that needed drawing and I sent him some samples of other things that I had done. MJD put me in touch with someone else at Avenger who handles the finances and we exchanged a string of e-mails discussing the details and expectations. After we reached an agreement, they sent me drafts of WIP and I sent them the artwork.

With Spica, my first contact as an employee (perhaps too strong a term given our loose relationship), was when someone needed me to finish a deckplan they were working on but couldn’t complete because of massive hardware failure. Again, we exchanged a few e-mails discussing mutual expectations and I did the work.

From real life work (architecture profession, not illustrator), I have found great benefit from written communication over verbal. Looking someone in the eye and talking to them is a great way to take a quick measure of the personality of a person … if you have even the smallest doubts about working with someone after meeting them, I would recommend walking away from that ‘opportunity’ if you can. However, time and again, having something in writing can be a tremendous benefit 6 months later when memories may not be as sharp. At work, legal cases have been won or lost, and even settled before getting to trial, on the strength of documented communication.

Even as a hobby illustrator, I save every e-mail on a project since I never know when I might need to look at it again to refresh my memory.

I will end with a story about the ‘fish that got away’. I almost got to work on a ship book for Mongoose Publishing. I was suggested by the author and corresponded with Matthew about the details. Unfortunately, it became clear that the timeline would not work out. They needed the art faster than I could produce it in my spare time. I doubt Matthew remembers the conversation (he probably e-mails with a lot of people, so I was probably little more than a blip on his radar), but I have no bad feelings from the whole thing and would gladly work with him again if the need/opportunity arose.

The interesting thing about all this is that the process for Avenger, Spica and Mongoose was more similar than different. The details were worlds apart, but the basic process of stating your expectations and asking your question and inquiring about their expectations and questions were all very similar.

So hopefully this will help someone else and you can get better information from another writer (since I get the impression that you are looking to write something rather than draw something).

 

[savage]

I will end with a story about the ‘fish that got away’. I almost got to work on a ship book for Mongoose Publishing. I was suggested by the author and corresponded with Matthew about the details. Unfortunately, it became clear that the timeline would not work out. They needed the art faster than I could produce it in my spare time. I doubt Matthew remembers the conversation (he probably e-mails with a lot of people, so I was probably little more than a blip on his radar), but I have no bad feelings from the whole thing and would gladly work with him again if the need/opportunity arose.

The interesting thing about all this is that the process for Avenger, Spica and Mongoose was more similar than different. The details were worlds apart, but the basic process of stating your expectations and asking your question and inquiring about their expectations and questions were all very similar.

So hopefully this will help someone else and you can get better information from another writer (since I get the impression that you are looking to write something rather than draw something).

I like what Mongoose did with Ships drawings. I'd like to see some of those exploded into a full cdrom with plans. Yep. That is one that got away.

I some drafting in school and autocad when it came out. Really, have not had the time to keep up with it. There were some "how to" YouTube videos, I should work with sometime. It's on the bucket list. :rofl:

I think this thread has long term value for future readers.
People interested in writing can get an understanding of the challenges, presenting ideas, risks, experiences of those that have done it.

I've already written once. Since, MJD, you and I have all had the experience of not getting paid for work done we can share the wisdom. o:

Not only because I think I should write again, but because we need more writers IMO and a repository of experience on COTI.

 

[DonM]

This is an interesting thread with a number of open questions....

1) I'm also hoping Martin will write again. Say anything you want to about Martin, but he kept the lights on when others did not. For that reason alone, he deserves a lot of respect. I may question him on canon issues or direction, but never on ability.

2) Mongoose's third-party publishers deserve a look. Zozer Games, SPICA, Gypsy Knights, Terra-Sol and 13Mann all have produced excellent material. 13Mann has released some official OTU materials. Speaking of Terra-Sol, anyone find out what happened to Michael Cross?

3) Marc was still working on the T20 CD. There was one book which he did NOT have a PDF from Hunter for, but I believe that problem has been resolved.

4) The T20 CD and a number of T5 projects have been delayed because Marc has been unavailable due to personal issues. I've stated that in some forums, but there's been no big announcement. When Marc is back, it will be obvious to all, I'm sure.