Futuristic takes on old weapons
- Thread starter Ninjin
- Start date
DangerousThing
SOC-13
In my campaign I stole something from the old fanzine on one of the CT Apochripha disks. It's a plasma pistol that takes some sort of cartridge; I'd make it the standard shotgun sized one. I'd guess 5 to a clip.
Shooting two or more shots too quickly causes major heating of the barrels.
This would be available either as a pistol or rifle 1 or 2 TLs before the PGMP.
Short range, not as much damage as the PGMP, but enough to be nastier than most other small weapons at its TL.
It's usually just called a blaster in my campaign.
I always liked the Coherent Superdense technology ... a material that adjusts it molecular structure to optimize resistance to various attacks ... it would make one heck of an armored business suit.
... or reversing the technology, a cut-thru-anything stiletto.
[but I can't quite see the attraction of high-tech muzzle-loaders ... muzzle loaders only exist to offset the buildup of crud in the barrel from black powder vs smokeless powder ... a breach-loading gun and paper cartridge would be in every way superior and could be built at TL 3 (and perhaps TL 2) with knowledge of the chemistry of the priming cap.]
... or reversing the technology, a cut-thru-anything stiletto.
[but I can't quite see the attraction of high-tech muzzle-loaders ... muzzle loaders only exist to offset the buildup of crud in the barrel from black powder vs smokeless powder ... a breach-loading gun and paper cartridge would be in every way superior and could be built at TL 3 (and perhaps TL 2) with knowledge of the chemistry of the priming cap.]
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Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
The problem with a breech-loading weapon using a paper cartridge is how to get an adequately tight gas seal at the breech. I am not sure what Tech Level you would assign the English Ferguson rifle used in the American Revolution, but that was a reasonably good breech-loader, but did not use a paper cartridge per se. The Sharps was viewed as the best paper cartridge breech-loader, but still leaked a fair amount of gas, which could foul the breech and make if hard to close.
Strictly my opinion, but ...
Metallic cartridges appeared so soon after the percussion primer that very little time and effort was invested in gas-tight seals of breach-loading firearms other than the metallic cartridge. It is a real engineering issue to be solved, but they managed it for cannons before the first flintlock muskets - so it does not seem like a deal breaker.
Metallic cartridges appeared so soon after the percussion primer that very little time and effort was invested in gas-tight seals of breach-loading firearms other than the metallic cartridge. It is a real engineering issue to be solved, but they managed it for cannons before the first flintlock muskets - so it does not seem like a deal breaker.
Well, there were breach loading BP fire arms before the was the paper cartridge.
There was pin fire rounds long before there was the shell as commonly known today.
There was paper wrapped, with a leather back piece that held the first fumgate (primer)
There was rounds that were completely contained with the part we call the bullet, ie there was no shell casing.
And all of this took place during the 19th Century (ie in the late 1800's to very early 1900's)
Once the brass shell casing with rim (similar to the 22 cal bullet known today) caught on, everyone was doing, and it the switch took place in about 3 years.
The primer in the back, center of the casing became very popular because it was easier to reload the shell and that is what the ammo manufacturers were producing so, it was only (?) what you could get.
BP was still used for years as the powder in the shell, but as time went on, BP fell out of favor because of the better FPS and power achieve with smokeless powder.
Of course today with SASS (Cowboy action games/tournaments) BP as the powder in shells is very popular.
Then again BP is classified as an explosive so is restricted in many ways as compared to smokeless powders.
Dave Chase
There was pin fire rounds long before there was the shell as commonly known today.
There was paper wrapped, with a leather back piece that held the first fumgate (primer)
There was rounds that were completely contained with the part we call the bullet, ie there was no shell casing.
And all of this took place during the 19th Century (ie in the late 1800's to very early 1900's)
Once the brass shell casing with rim (similar to the 22 cal bullet known today) caught on, everyone was doing, and it the switch took place in about 3 years.
The primer in the back, center of the casing became very popular because it was easier to reload the shell and that is what the ammo manufacturers were producing so, it was only (?) what you could get.
BP was still used for years as the powder in the shell, but as time went on, BP fell out of favor because of the better FPS and power achieve with smokeless powder.
Of course today with SASS (Cowboy action games/tournaments) BP as the powder in shells is very popular.
Then again BP is classified as an explosive so is restricted in many ways as compared to smokeless powders.
Dave Chase
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
Are you referring to the early breech-loading cannon using firing chambers which were inserted into the open gun breech and then wedged tight to get as good a gas seal as possible?
If not, then what breech-loading cannon prior to the flintlock are you referring too?
As for breech-loading firearms, the US Army adopted the Hall breech-loading flintlock rifle in 1819, but had continued problems with the gas seal, and also erosion of the action by the hot powder gases on the breech closure.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
Actually, the center-fire primer took a while to work out, as making a brass cartridge with a center priming hole took about 10 years to work out successfully, and a rimfire cartridge is easier to make. However, the problem with the early rimfire cartridges was getting an even distribution of the primer around the whole circumference of the rim. The Indians were using a fair number of Henry and Winchester 1866 (the Henry with a side loading gate) rifles using the rimfire .44 Henry cartridge at the Little Big Horn, and the archaeological digs there have recovered a number of Henry cartridge with multiple firing pins marks indicating repeated misfires. The Henry and Spencer rimfire cartridges were still being made up into the early 1900s.
I shoot muzzle loading BP when I do living history events... I buy it (here in California, where the purchase of smokeless powder needs ID and a signature in the store's log) with no paperwork at all...
Shooting supply companies will UPS a *minimum* of 25 *pounds* black powder to your home (in 48 states) with no license of any kind required...
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
In both cases, the problem was that wrought iron was insufficiently resilient to form a good gas seal. Cartridge brass needs to be able to expand sufficiently when the powder, be it black or smokeless, burns but also must then return to near its original dimensions to allow the spent cartridge to be readily extracted. Getting the right alloy for that took a while, and even then, problem batches did get through. The 7th Cavalry, Custer's Regiment, at Little Big Horn, were not only outgunned by the Sioux, but had problems with extracting the 45/70 cartridge rounds from there Springfield breech-loading singe shot carbines. There were some bad lots of cartridges approved for issue where the brass was not quite up to where it should have been. The Seventh had the unfortunate experience of having one of those lots when hit by the Sioux.
Every hear of ignorance is no excuse when it come to law?
(No insult or bad vibes intended with the question just leading to a point.)Licensing is not required, but having more than X number of lbs of BP (difference in whether you are a resaler or end user) is regulated by law. Some states have different x lbs listed.
I too, shoot BP both playing at being a SASS member and a BP/mountainman member along with going to a BP gun shows (both as a dealer and a customer).
The other thing about BP is that it can be made by anyone if they got the time (patience) and material or they can make (or find) the material (again if they have the patience).
Buying large quantities of KNO3 can get you on some watch lists.
As for buying smokeless (in the State that I live in), the only reason for ID is to make sure that you are 18 or older. Same with primers (smokeless) but not BP primers, go figure.
Dave Chase
Another problem that exists a lot with straight walled shells, is that if the BP load was not strong enough and the chamber in the barrel was not tight enough, there were cartridges that would get stuck from expanding, splitting and most often, gases would come out the back end of the firearm (you know, right where your face was).
Dave Chase
Every hear of ignorance is no excuse when it come to law?
Licensing is not required, but having more than X number of lbs of BP (difference in whether you are a resaler or end user) is regulated by law. Some states have different x lbs listed.
Yup! 50 pounds in most US jurisdictions! Which, as you propbably know from YOUR experience, a cannon crew can go through pretty fast!
The biggest virtue of black powder (it low-TL environs) is the comparative ease of manufacture, both of the powder and the firearms... several posters have already commented on the higher strength steels needed for smokeless powder firearms.
IFF your situation favors local manufacture over the higher maintenance, downtime for cleaning, misfires from fouling, etc., then Black Powder may be right for YOU!(tm)
Enoki
SOC-14 1K
The biggest down side to black powder performance-wise is that it is an explosive rather than a fast combusting powder. That limits the velocity developed in a weapon to about 1500 to 1800 fps max. That limits both range and potential penetration power.
The other down side is smoke. It will reveal the firer from the smoke clouds produced.
The other down side is smoke. It will reveal the firer from the smoke clouds produced.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
Gunpowder is NOT an explosive. An explosive is characterized by a high-velocity detonation wave progressing through the consolidated substance. Gunpowder is a fast-combusting powder that does not explode. With a long barrel, and properly sized powder grains and a correct proportion of powder to projectile, it is possible to achieve velocities of up to 2,000 feet per second with black or brown powder.
Gunpowder is a mechanical mixture of saltpeter, charcoal, and sulphur, and the individual components can be readily separate out by use of water as a solvent. Originally, gunpowder was literally a powder, and it was common to mix a propellant charge as needed, rather than having premade powder. Corned or granular gunpowder is what is currently used, and the speed of burning is varied by adjusting the grain size. For faster burning, a finer grain is used. For a powder-loaded shell, very fine-grained powder is used, and the shell is not completely filled so as to allow for prompt ignition of all of the grains.
I am not sure that this is the place for a detailed discussion as to the manufacture and ballistics of gunpowder.
Really? Tell that to the various governments, Hollywood, and all those that have used Black Powder to make things go boom, like fire crackers.
Unless, you are trying to say that modern, smokeless gun powder is not an explosive, then you would be correct.
BP and gun powder are not the same even though they are used to create the same general results when applied to firearms.
Dave Chase
Neither Gunpower, Nitrocellulose (guncotton), nor cordite are technically explosives. They're fast burning high gas expansion self-oxidizing combustables, but don't normally create a detonation wave, which is the definitive "yes, this is an explosion" characteristic.
Some terminology systems call them "low explosives" - others only use "explosive" for detonation wave generating effects.
Enoki
SOC-14 1K
I was specific to Black Powder which is classified as an explosive unlike modern propellants for guns. Those burn at a very rapid rate.
With Black Powder you are limited in velocity as I pointed out (yes, you can push the limit to about 2000 fps) to around 1500 to 1800 fs. Barrel length is irrelevant past a point as you can't get more gas generated like with modern propellants. The only thing a longer barrel buys you is a slight increase in accuracy due to the greater distance between sight points.
In any case these are details.
Some alternatives for gas checks in breech loaders to historical would be available in Traveller I'd think:
Combustable cartridges
A flexible gas seal on the breech mechanism akin to an o-ring but able to take the pressure of firing. For instance the addition of a flexible stainless steel ring like a tightly wound circular spring that acts like an o-ring and seals between the breech block and barrel as found in a Sharps.
Partial cartridges. That is a brass and paper (or plastic or other combustable material) arrangement where just the base of the cartridge is metal making for easier removal.
More mechanically involved breech mechanisms than could be made in the 19th century.
With Black Powder you are limited in velocity as I pointed out (yes, you can push the limit to about 2000 fps) to around 1500 to 1800 fs. Barrel length is irrelevant past a point as you can't get more gas generated like with modern propellants. The only thing a longer barrel buys you is a slight increase in accuracy due to the greater distance between sight points.
In any case these are details.
Some alternatives for gas checks in breech loaders to historical would be available in Traveller I'd think:
Combustable cartridges
A flexible gas seal on the breech mechanism akin to an o-ring but able to take the pressure of firing. For instance the addition of a flexible stainless steel ring like a tightly wound circular spring that acts like an o-ring and seals between the breech block and barrel as found in a Sharps.
Partial cartridges. That is a brass and paper (or plastic or other combustable material) arrangement where just the base of the cartridge is metal making for easier removal.
More mechanically involved breech mechanisms than could be made in the 19th century.
