Rules Only: Generic or Official Traveller Universe

[rancke]

The "rules" state that there is no Imperial Government below the subsector level. Or, rather, the Imperial government begins at the subsector level, all the way up to the Moot and the Emperor.

The setting description, not the rules. Interstellar government start at the subsector level, yes. That means the duke rules the Imperial functions in the subsector directly rather than it being subdivided into counties ruled by the counts.

But there's no definition of what relationship nobles below the rank of Duke have with the worlds which they are associated with.

Yes there is. In GT: Nobles. I just told you.

It's either a just a formal recognition, a "nicety", or there is some other unaddressed power or relationship.

Imperium.

The "rules" state that the relationship between nobles and the Emperor is a feudal one. The "rules" state that the Imperial government is a feudal system.

Wrong. One part of the setting description state that the Imperium is a feudal structure. Other parts of the setting descriptions and rules (namely the world generation system) contradicts that statement.

This contradiction can be resolved by considering one statement not to be taken literally or by considering several other statements and rules to be flat out wrong. The least disruption is caused by considering that one statement to be a figure of speech.

Feudal systems are defined as a ruler/protector who offers armed protection to workers and farmers on a parcel of land designated for the lord's rule. If that does not exist, then, by definition, it is not a feudal system.

NOW you're getting it! As described it is, indeed, not a feudal system.


Hans

 

[robject]

i agree completely with Hans, the Imperium as we have it described does not own all the worlds.

Seconded. The Imperium, through its proxy the Navy, controls the space between worlds, rather than the worlds themselves.

 

[Timerover51]

Seconded. The Imperium, through its proxy the Navy, controls the space between worlds, rather than the worlds themselves.

If the Imperium is collecting taxes from a world, it controls it. If it can designate Nobility to control sections of the world or have what in medieval times would have been called a monetary fief, the Imperium controls it. If it can draft the citizens of a world into the Imperium military, it controls it.

 

[aramis]

If the Imperium is collecting taxes from a world, it controls it. If it can designate Nobility to control sections of the world or have what in medieval times would have been called a monetary fief, the Imperium controls it. If it can draft the citizens of a world into the Imperium military, it controls it.

A noble's fief is extraterritorial to the world - part of the lands ceded by the world to the Imperium at induction into the Imperium. Essentially, the same status as consulates and embassies.

We know that Regina holds a fief of a duke; we know it's not type 7 government (balkanization), as well...

We know that Starports are often imperial controlled; we know also that in such cases the world's government code doesn't reflect this.

 

[rancke]

A noble's fief is extraterritorial to the world - part of the lands ceded by the world to the Imperium at induction into the Imperium. Essentially, the same status as consulates and embassies.

How do we know that?

We know that Regina holds a fief of a duke; we know it's not type 7 government (balkanization), as well...

Yes, but I am unaware of an statement to the effect the fief has extraterritoriality. Such a statement would certainly upset some of my arguments.

We know that Starports are often imperial controlled; we know also that in such cases the world's government code doesn't reflect this.

Often? Always, I would have thought.

I don't think that proves anything. We know that embassies have extraterritoriality too without government codes reflecting that. I don't think it's the same thing as a chunk of land supporting a slice of the planetary population having extraterritoriality.


Hans

 

[aramis]

How do we know that?

Extraterritriality: T4. I don't have the specific quote to hand.
T5 cites and then defines "Economic Control" over fiefs...

A Land Grant differs from ordinary ownership of land;
it confers specific rights and privileges on its holder. These
rights include:
Economic Control over one Terrain Hex (6,500 square
km) on a world and an associated income based on taxes
and production. Economic Control is similar to governmental
control: the ability (within reason) to create law and behavioral
expectations; the ability to control who can occupy the
land (and pay rent or taxes).​

That's pretty damned close to extraterritoriality, but isn't explicitly so.
Also, T5 is explicit that all Imperial Nobles (apparently including both Reward and Hereditary) receive a land grant, and every world has at least one associated noble (many have multiples) and land grant hexes being automatic... that's multiple fiefs with subordinate government status, defacto and/or de jure. But the piles of fiefs don't result in changes to the government type, except in certain special cases (such as Aramis.)


We do see that there are fiefs on Lewis/Aramis that are freehold grants from a Tukera Barony, and that the planet used to be an entire world owned by the Tukera family. The government code is 0 (TTA 16, 115); the Tukera Estates are not in fact the Government, but the starport is part of their fief and under their control (TTA 115)

Aramis/Aramis is a corporate government - but the city of Leedor is part of the Marquisate Fief, and happens to be the majority of the world's population. (TTA 31) The Marquis can override any and/or all contracts upon a whim, and all appointments within it are at his pleasure. Government type is 5: Feudal Technocracy. Not 6 (owned).

As to all vs most starports... the downports of Aramanx are not extraterritorial, for example, only the high port. (TTA 74)

 

[rancke]

Extraterritriality: T4. I don't have the specific quote to hand.

A T4 reference would be better than nothing.

T5...

What T5 says does not affect what canon has had to say previously. T5 apparently retcons Impertial nobles in a number of ways. I would think that it could retcon Imperial fiefs too.

That having been said...

...cites and then defines "Economic Control" over fiefs...

A Land Grant differs from ordinary ownership of land; it confers specific rights and privileges on its holder. These rights include:

Economic Control over one Terrain Hex (6,500 square km) on a world and an associated income based on taxes and production. Economic Control is similar to governmental control: the ability (within reason) to create law and behavioral expectations; the ability to control who can occupy the land (and pay rent or taxes).​

I seem to recall from previous discussions about T5's portrayal of Imperial nobles that Economic Control was contrasted with actual government control, but I could be misremembering.

That's pretty damned close to extraterritoriality, but isn't explicitly so.
Also, T5 is explicit that all Imperial Nobles (apparently including both Reward and Hereditary) receive a land grant, and every world has at least one associated noble (many have multiples) and land grant hexes being automatic... that's multiple fiefs with subordinate government status, defacto and/or de jure. But the piles of fiefs don't result in changes to the government type, except in certain special cases (such as Aramis.)

I think the 'subordinate' part of 'subordinate government' may be the operative word. But maybe not.

We do see that there are fiefs on Lewis/Aramis that are freehold grants from a Tukera Barony, and that the planet used to be an entire world owned by the Tukera family. The government code is 0 (TTA 16, 115); the Tukera Estates are not in fact the Government, but the starport is part of their fief and under their control (TTA 115)

The setup on Lewis is exceedingly peculiar. The owner of most of the world is not the world government?!? I think it must be a very atypical setup. Personqally I can't make it make sense.

Aramis/Aramis is a corporate government - but the city of Leedor is part of the Marquisate Fief, and happens to be the majority of the world's population. (TTA 31) The Marquis can override any and/or all contracts upon a whim, and all appointments within it are at his pleasure. Government type is 5: Feudal Technocracy. Not 6 (owned).

That one is easy to explain away: the Marquis of Aramis is also the world leader ex officio. But he is that wearing a different hat.

As to all vs most starports... the downports of Aramanx are not extraterritorial, for example, only the high port. (TTA 74)

They are spaceports, not starports. There's only one starport per world.


Hans

 

[Blue Ghost]

rancke ; the reason I put that last caveat in my last post was to demonstrate that the rules might be in conflict with one another, though we're not certain until more material is published. I don't know what you're referring to about me "finally getting it", but the game describes the Imperium as feudal. End of story.

I'm curious about that aspect, and how other players treat that.

Apparently you use GURPS T-Nobles. Great. What about those of us who don't?

 

[Blue Ghost]

Seconded. The Imperium, through its proxy the Navy, controls the space between worlds, rather than the worlds themselves.

I think it safer to say that the Imperium does not administer (control) the worlds, but it's clear that it (rather the Emperor) can parcel out worlds and lands thereof on a whim regardless of what the local laws and societal setup are. In this way the Imperium does own, but not rule, the worlds in its empire, and, in this way, it controls the space between worlds.

 

[Timerover51]

rancke ; the reason I put that last caveat in my last post was to demonstrate that the rule might be in conflict with one another, though we're not certain until more material is published. I don't know what you're referring to about me "finally getting it", but the game describes the Imperium as feudal. End of story.

I'm curious about that aspect, and how other players treat that.

Apparently you use GURPS T-Nobles. Great. What about those of us who don't?

I got a letter from Loren Wiseman describing the Imperium as sort of halfway between the tight control of the Roman Empire and the loose association of the British Commonwealth. That was in about 1980 or so, when I discovered Traveller. I sort of think of it as a little like the British control of India under prior to the Great Indian Mutiny of 1857. Some direct control of areas, and some indirect through local rulers, who knew not to cross the British.

As for nobles, I have never read or purchased anything of GURPS, so I pretty much play it by ear. If I need a noble, I figure out why I do and get him or her in place. Right now, on the story I am working on, the Scouts have established a claim on the planet, so no nobles. In the Norton-Piper sector I am working on, as it is Rimward of the Solomani, no nobles or Imperium around. That does make things easier.

 

[rancke]

I think it safer to say that the Imperium does not administer (control) the worlds, but it's clear that it (rather the Emperor) can parcel out worlds and lands thereof on a whim regardless of what the local laws and societal setup are. In this way the Imperium does own, but not rule, the worlds in its empire, and, in this way, it controls the space between worlds.

It may be clear to you, but it is not clear to me, nor to anyone else we heard from so far, nor is it supported by the published setting material.


Hans

 

[rancke]

rancke ; the reason I put that last caveat in my last post was to demonstrate that the rules might be in conflict with one another, though we're not certain until more material is published. I don't know what you're referring to about me "finally getting it", but the game describes the Imperium as feudal. End of story.

That's just the point; the available setting material does not describe the Imperium as feudal. It describes it as an autocracy with pseudo-feudal trappings. That has been explained to you, with references, over and over again. The truth doesn't change no matter how ardently you deny it.

Apparently you use GURPS T-Nobles. Great. What about those of us who don't?

You're as wrong (about the OTU, our common frame of reference; I'm saying nothing about your own TU) as anyone who doesn't use the two library data books but instead makes up something entirely of his own out of whole cloth or cherrypicks part of the material while ignoring the rest.

Not that the library data supports your view either, as has been pointed out to you numerous times.


Hans

 

[rancke]

As for nobles, I have never read or purchased anything of GURPS, so I pretty much play it by ear.

No one expects you or anyone else to give a toss for what GT: Nobles has to say. Unless you're talking about or writing material for the OTU. Even then, an editor (or Marc Miller) may decide to retcon anything that has been written in Nobles or any other book about the OTU. But while Nobles (and those other books too) remain unretconned, the material found therein is part of the description of the OTU. The fact that you and Blue Ghost lack access to some of that material or that it contradicts long-cherished notions doesn't render it null and void. Only Marc Miller and his minions can do that.

There remains the sore spot of contradictory statements. Such statements open the doors to doubts and uncertainties. But it it dang well does not open the door for ignoring any of it sight unseen; all we can do with contradictory statements is to weigh them against the others and go where the preponderance of evidence points us. And that includes evidence found in Nobles.


Hans

 

[Blue Ghost]

It may be clear to you, but it is not clear to me, nor to anyone else we heard from so far, nor is it supported by the published setting material.


Hans

It says so right in the rules.

 

[Blue Ghost]

I got a letter from Loren Wiseman describing the Imperium as sort of halfway between the tight control of the Roman Empire and the loose association of the British Commonwealth. That was in about 1980 or so, when I discovered Traveller. I sort of think of it as a little like the British control of India under prior to the Great Indian Mutiny of 1857. Some direct control of areas, and some indirect through local rulers, who knew not to cross the British.

As for nobles, I have never read or purchased anything of GURPS, so I pretty much play it by ear. If I need a noble, I figure out why I do and get him or her in place. Right now, on the story I am working on, the Scouts have established a claim on the planet, so no nobles. In the Norton-Piper sector I am working on, as it is Rimward of the Solomani, no nobles or Imperium around. That does make things easier.

That's interesting. I'm not up on my Roman history. I just know about a few wars, but not what kind of economy they had, other than slaves were a huge part of it.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Hans; here's an excerpt I copied from the Traveller wiki;

Government Structure: The Imperium can be best thought of as a form of feudal confederation. Member worlds of the Imperium agree to pay taxes and obey a few fundamental laws which the Imperium promulgates, known as the High Laws. In return, the Imperium agrees to patrol the space between the worlds, to protect interstellar trade, to encourage travel and commerce, and to arbitrate diplomatic relations between worlds. Beyond this, individual worlds are left to their own devices so long as they acknowledge the power of the Imperium to rule the space between the stars.

In the GURPS Trav supps there's at least one exception where the Imperium actually does rule and administer a single world, largely due to corporate abuse of the natives. There may be other examples, but I've not come across any others.

I don't know what things are like in Denmark, but here in the US there's a thing called eminent domain, where even though a private party or individual owns a piece of land, the state or federal government can step in, take that land with proper compensation, and use it as it sees fit.

Otherwise the Imperium would have absolutely no power whatsoever, which was the case with the original Articles of Confederation after the USA was founded. The difference being that we over here are a representative republic, as opposed to a constitutional monarchy.

I think the essay on nobles uses the term "feudal" to describe the heriarchy and relationship between nobles, worlds and nobles, and worlds with subsectors, subsectors with sectors, and sectors with domains.

I'm actually tired of arguing the point. You say "no", which I don't really care. But, like I say, for the last time, I'm curious what other people do for their gaming sessions.

 

[rancke]

It says so right in the rules.

Already refuted a couple of times. The setting material refers to the Imperium as a feudal structure, yes, but then it goes on to describe an autocracy with pseudo-feudal trappings. What part of having to weigh ALL the evidence instead of cherry-picking the one bit that support your prejudices is so hard to accept?


Hans

 

[rancke]

Hans; here's an excerpt I copied from the Traveller wiki;

A link would have been nice.

The Traveller wiki isn't canon. At best it's what whoever wrote the article thinks is canon.

That said, the bit you quote says that the Imperium is best thought of as a feudal confederation (whatever that may be). Then it goes on to describe something that isn't feudal at all.

In the GURPS Trav supps there's at least one exception where the Imperium actually does rule and administer a single world, largely due to corporate abuse of the natives. There may be other examples, but I've not come across any others.

Oh, there are a number of worlds that are being run by the Imperium directly. That doesn't prove that they are being ruled as an Imperial fief. Even if it was, the Imperium is full of exceptions to the general rules. One fief would not make fiefs the general rule.

I don't know what things are like in Denmark, but here in the US there's a thing called eminent domain, where even though a private party or individual owns a piece of land, the state or federal government can step in, take that land with proper compensation, and use it as it sees fit.

And the Imperium is expressly forbidden to do so by the very first line in Article I of the Warrant of Restoration: "The Imperium shall exercise no direct governance over any member world."

Otherwise the Imperium would have absolutely no power whatsoever, which was the case with the original Articles of Confederation after the USA was founded. The difference being that we over here are a representative republic, as opposed to a constitutional monarchy.

Of course the Imperium has power. It has all the powers granted to it by the individual membership charters. Not to mention the infamous Article VIII of the Warrant of Restoration (probably known as 'The Emperor's Cloak' because it covers everything ):

Article Vlll - Acknowledgment of Imperial Power

Notwithstanding any provisions to the contrary contained in this document or in subsequent Imperial actions, the Imperium, for the purpose of ensuring its continued safety and stability, reserves to itself the power to unilaterally enact changes in any or all aspects of the relationship between itself and any member world or citizen.​

I'm actually tired of arguing the point.

So am I. I wish you wouldn't keep bringing it up.

You say "no", which I don't really care. But, like I say, for the last time, I'm curious what other people do for their gaming sessions.

Then ask about that instead of making absolute statements about canon that you know some people disagree with. If you do, you're likely to get an argument about it. It's pretty simple, really. Bring it up, get an argument; don't bring it up, don't get an argument.


Hans

 

[atpollard]

Ok, I'll chime in with one caveat ... I only read the last page and have absolutely no desire to go back and read what I suspect is 15 more pages of circular debate.

Government Structure: The Imperium can be best thought of as a form of feudal confederation. Member worlds of the Imperium agree to pay taxes and obey a few fundamental laws which the Imperium promulgates, known as the High Laws. In return, the Imperium agrees to patrol the space between the worlds, to protect interstellar trade, to encourage travel and commerce, and to arbitrate diplomatic relations between worlds. Beyond this, individual worlds are left to their own devices so long as they acknowledge the power of the Imperium to rule the space between the stars.

That pretty much describes how I view the Imperium, but I see it as reflecting the relationship between sovereign worlds rather than the internal government of those worlds. It is feudal in that the individual worlds (whatever their government) are the 'barons' of the feudal hierarchy and the Emperor is the 'king' of the feudal hierarchy. If the 'king' exercised direct control over each 'baron', then the Imperium would be better described as a dictatorship. However, the 'king' does not control the 'barons' directly. Rather, each 'baron' world answers to a sub-sector 'count' who in turn answers to a sector 'duke' who answers to an Emperor 'king'.

I view it like NATO, where it is an organization over nations (worlds in Traveller) rather than a direct rule of the people of those 'nations'. Where the Imperium differs from NATO (or the EU for another example) is that NATO is a 'confederation' of equals, while the Imperium has a clear hierarchy.

Like the barbarians willing and happy to join the Roman Empire and enjoy the benefits of the Empire, the worlds of Traveller are happy to enjoy the benefits of Imperial membership and adopt Imperial culture, merging it with local culture.

Imperial Nobles hold power and position and influence because of their wealth and connections. While Medieval Feudalism was built upon control of land, Imperial Nobility rests upon the control of corporations and mega-corporations. It is a nobility of Donald Trumps and Warren Buffets and Queen Elizabeths.

So the feudal structure is not personal but 'institutional'. Worlds owe allegiance to an interstellar 'sector government' that in turn owes allegiance to a larger 'Imperial government'.

 

[aramis]

That's just the point; the available setting material does not describe the Imperium as feudal. It describes it as an autocracy with pseudo-feudal trappings. That has been explained to you, with references, over and over again. The truth doesn't change no matter how ardently you deny it.

Marc has described the Imperium as being a Feudal Technocracy. (Yes, the 3I is gov code 5.)