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Rules Only: Generic or Official Traveller Universe

What kind of Traveller setting do you prefer?

  • Generic no-Official Universe

    Votes: 29 19.6%
  • Official Traveller Universe

    Votes: 46 31.1%
  • Customized; some OTU mixed with other elements

    Votes: 73 49.3%

  • Total voters
    148
Marc has described the Imperium as being a Feudal Technocracy. (Yes, the 3I is gov code 5.)
So I've heard. Using the same distinction that I've made all along, he hasn't described the Imperium as a feudal technocracy, he has said that the Imperium is a feudal technocracy, which has the same major problem that I've been pointing out the whole time.
5 Feudal Technocracy. Government by specific individuals for those who agree to be ruled. Relationships are based on the performance of technical activities which are mutually beneficial. [TB:85]​
Just what are the technological services that Imperial rulers provide for their vassals and how are they distinct from the services an autocracy provides?

I've been told that a feudal technocracy is analogous to some Japanese system of governance whose name I can't remember, but I've never seen an explanation of just how the analogy applies.

I stand by my assertation that as described the Imperium is an autocracy with pseudo-feudal trappings.

EDIT: It may be that all the canonical descriptions of how the Imperium functions can be made to fit the definition of a Feudal Technocracy. I don't quite see how, but since I'm quite vague on just what a feudal technocracy is I won't rule it out. And if that's the case, no one would be more pleased than I. As long as it isn't used as an excuse to make Imperial barons and marquesses rule the worlds they are associated with nor counts their counties nor to ignore other parts of canon, I'd be perfectly happy to call the Imperium a feudal technocracy. I'd just be happer if I understood just how that worked.


Hans
 
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Ok, I'll chime in with one caveat ... I only read the last page and have absolutely no desire to go back and read what I suspect is 15 more pages of circular debate.



That pretty much describes how I view the Imperium, but I see it as reflecting the relationship between sovereign worlds rather than the internal government of those worlds. It is feudal in that the individual worlds (whatever their government) are the 'barons' of the feudal hierarchy and the Emperor is the 'king' of the feudal hierarchy. If the 'king' exercised direct control over each 'baron', then the Imperium would be better described as a dictatorship. However, the 'king' does not control the 'barons' directly. Rather, each 'baron' world answers to a sub-sector 'count' who in turn answers to a sector 'duke' who answers to an Emperor 'king'.

I view it like NATO, where it is an organization over nations (worlds in Traveller) rather than a direct rule of the people of those 'nations'. Where the Imperium differs from NATO (or the EU for another example) is that NATO is a 'confederation' of equals, while the Imperium has a clear hierarchy.

Like the barbarians willing and happy to join the Roman Empire and enjoy the benefits of the Empire, the worlds of Traveller are happy to enjoy the benefits of Imperial membership and adopt Imperial culture, merging it with local culture.

Imperial Nobles hold power and position and influence because of their wealth and connections. While Medieval Feudalism was built upon control of land, Imperial Nobility rests upon the control of corporations and mega-corporations. It is a nobility of Donald Trumps and Warren Buffets and Queen Elizabeths.

So the feudal structure is not personal but 'institutional'. Worlds owe allegiance to an interstellar 'sector government that in turn owes allegiance to a larger 'Imperial government'.
Is that how it is in your gaming sessions?
 
Is that how it is in your gaming sessions?
More or less.
I like all of the 'sandbox' rules in Traveller (going back to CT: High Guard and CT: Scouts), so I was never really content to accept only the standard ships when I could have lots of fun exploring the ship building rules, or to accept only the OTU Spinward Marches when I could have fun creating maps and Star Kingdoms and Empires and unaligned worlds and unexplored regions.

So I heavily borrow inspiration from the Third Imperium, but almost never use the official published sectors.

There were a handful of short stories and novels from the 'Mirrorshades' era that provided (and continue to provide) fodder for corporate governments and internal corporate intrigue that serve as a basket of core ideas to shape the political landscape of In My (alternate) Traveller Universe.
 
That's interesting. One of my minor beefs with the game was a lack of vessel variety. And as the years marched on there seemed to be precious few new comers.
 
That's interesting. One of my minor beefs with the game was a lack of vessel variety. And as the years marched on there seemed to be precious few new comers.

I guess that I always figured that vessel variety was up to the players. They can develop the ships needed for their style of play. Right now, I am working up a Jump-3 600 dTon Subsidized Merchant that is operating as a Free Trader, along with a variety of ships to go with my N-P Sector. It is to Rimward, so the jumps are longer. There is a Scout Variant in JTAS Number 2 as well that you can tap into.
 
Yeah, I think that's how we looked at it too. I guess it was just the little boy in me wanting to see more space ships.and "futuristic stuff", so to speak.

When I used to run CT sessions I really did my best to lay out the ambiance of the starport/spaceport*. To me adventures began and ended there. They were hubs of activity and people transiting from one adventure to the next, however mundane or exciting.

On the Dragon's Bane PBP thread, the one thing I wish I had done a bit more of was to add more vessels in the scene description, and ratchet up the flavor text for those participating. I like that kind of stuff, and I think it helps gaming sessions to really establish atmosphere, wherever or whatever it is.



[size=-2]*The terms "starport" and "spaceport" really threw me when I picked up Traveller. I was very much used to using the term "spaceport", and not just because of Star Wars, but because all the sci-fi books and books on the future of mankind, used that term; "spaceport". Even Cape Kennedy is a "spaceport" and not a "starport". And, to be honest, I really wish Traveller had seized on the term "spaceport" as the catchall, instead of "starport". But, I'm guessing the GDW folks believed they had to make their product stand out, ergo "star" instead of "space". To me it always made Traveller seem like an odd-duck in the sci-fi genre. Just my personal feelings on the matter. As it stands now, I have no objection to "starport", and anything I posted here is, well, just me. Thanks. I've been waiting over 30 years to get that off my chest. I feel better now. [/size]
 
In my own homespun vision of an Empire (from here):

How does a Space Empire Work?
Here I present an Empire which is somewhat different from the default Traveller Imperium, though also somewhat similar in spirit. Whether this is an alien Empire or a Terran Empire, my basic idea for them is the same. The idea is this: An Empire of Zaibatsus. The Empire is ruled by the Major Houses, as well as Minor Houses; each House is a massive, family-owned, semi-monopolist megacorp, similar to the Zaibatsus of Imperial Japan, though with even bigger political clout. Eventually, these Houses - initially mercantile and industrial combines - have ossified themselves into the very political fabric of the Empire, with various fancy titles of nobility foisted on their controlling, old-money families, and a pseudo-feudal mystique and culture surrounding them. But, at the most basic level, the Empire is not feudal per se - it is not ruled by a class of land-owners - but rather more like a highly monopolized market economy.

So each House is essentially a corporation, with a single extended family controlling it. Each House owns a very wide variety of subsidiaries, industries and outlets, and also has the right to govern planets, subsectors or even sectors. When communications are limited to the speed of travel and the speed of travel is, at most, 6 parsecs per week, it means that planetary business, even when owned by an interstellar corporation, must run itself almost independently. So how does the controlling family make sure that all its interstellar holdings are run in its interest? By appointing relatives, or, at least, members of long-time allied families (i.e. retainers) to run businesses, planets and subsectors. It's all in the family, you see.

My Empire is 9 Sectors in size (3x3), with each of the 8 peripheral Sectors controlled by one Major House, and the central Sector controlled by the biggest and richest of the Houses, the Imperial Family. Major Houses have much autonomy in how they run their Sectors, and are relatively self-sufficient, at least in basic goods. Inter-sector trade is in luxuries, high-tech items, rare earths and other things which the local industrial World or Asteroid Belt couldn't simply produce.

Minor Houses own smaller businesses, typically on the Subsector level; some are independent and provide services which the Major Houses do not see profitable enough to monopolize; others are, in essence, independent subsidiaries ("vassals") of Major Houses. Free Traders also have their place, as highly ossified monopolies cannot always cater to each and every need of multiple disparate planets, so these holes in the system are plugged by independents, as well as smugglers, who, as small companies, are much more flexible in their response to the market.

Each House has its own military, and is expected to take care of its Sector's defenses on its own. The Emperor also owns several high-tech Legions and Imperial Fleets, whom he uses to keep the Houses in line, as well as take care of emergencies that the local Houses cannot deal with (such as major invasions or massive rebellions). These are mostly kept in the Core, though some squadrons patrol the Periphery to show the flag and remind the Houses who is in charge. But usually the ones to face the initial thrust of foreign invasions and rebellions are House troops, with the Imperial forces intervening only as the last resort.

While each planet in the Empire is ruled by a member of a House (i.e. a noble), the actual government, and thus the Traveller government code, varies, as not all nobles rule in the same way. The ideal (from the Imperial viewpoint, that is) planetary administration is Traveller Government 5 (Feudal Technocracy), but some rulers take a more direct hand (Govs A-B) or let their servants run things for them (Govs 8-9); sometimes the world is split between several Houses (Gov 7), sometimes the ruling family runs things rather than a proper Zaibatsu subsidiary (Gov 3) and sometimes (rarely) the ruler steps back and, as long as the taxes are flowing, lets the local run their own lives (Govs 2 and 4).
 
The way I do it is this.

A sub-sector duke is effectively the Emperor in his/her duchy/sub-sector. His primary aim is to develop the economies of the worlds in his duchy. He does not own the worlds, he may own no land on any of them, but he is in receipt of the taxes and is in control of the civilian Imperial bureaucracy within hi duchy. In his position as pseudo-Emperor he also has authority to direct the use of Imperial armed forces.

Adjacent duchies can often find themselves in economic conflict with rival duchies, hence the position of sector duke has evolved to settle disputes between duchies and as a more strategic link with Imperial military forces within the sector.

Sectors close to the Imperial core have been ruled for so long by the Imerium that a lot of the worlds have been bought up by their associated nobles and megacorporation factors, but in frontier sectors such as the Spinward Marches most worlds have complete control of their own actions (within the dictats of Imperial membership).
 
...The Empire is ruled by the Major Houses, as well as Minor Houses; each House is a massive, family-owned, semi-monopolist megacorp, similar to the Zaibatsus of Imperial Japan, though with even bigger political clout. Eventually, these Houses - initially mercantile and industrial combines - have ossified themselves into the very political fabric of the Empire, with various fancy titles of nobility foisted on their controlling, old-money families, and a pseudo-feudal mystique and culture surrounding them. But, at the most basic level, the Empire is not feudal per se - it is not ruled by a class of land-owners - but rather more like a highly monopolized market economy.

Aren't you pretty much describing the 1st Imperium?
 
That's pretty much what a feudal society is, only a little more developed than anything earlier than the 1400s Europe. The monarch doled out monopolies for various industries as they became more developed. I think the Imperium is beyond some of their operative goals, but the basic structure is still in place.
 
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The poll results are interesting to far. As of this post it breaks down as tollows

No OTU; 15.28%
All OTU; 33.33%
Cust TU; 51.39%

It looks like a slim majority generally play the game as allegedly intended, with the OTU, but toss in their own version of the 3I or whatever version of the TU they're using. Whereas the remaining 49% break up into thirds; two-thirds dong the OTU, and the remaining third (15%) just tossing aside the established setting.

I won't say I predicted this, but I had a strong sense that people would be running their own sessions as they see fit, with perhaps using elements of the OTU for, I'm guessing, convenience. Which, to me at least, translates that there is still a large chunk of players who have a generic like view of Traveller, but probably also appreciate the OTU for what it is.

And, based on the testimonials here, it seems like people have no problem with treating the OTU as a suggestion rather than a hard "must use" setting.

Most interesting :)
 
The poll results are interesting to far. As of this post it breaks down as tollows

No OTU; 15.28%
All OTU; 33.33%
Cust TU; 51.39%

It looks like a slim majority generally play the game as allegedly intended, with the OTU, but toss in their own version of the 3I or whatever version of the TU they're using. Whereas the remaining 49% break up into thirds; two-thirds dong the OTU, and the remaining third (15%) just tossing aside the established setting.

I won't say I predicted this, but I had a strong sense that people would be running their own sessions as they see fit, with perhaps using elements of the OTU for, I'm guessing, convenience. Which, to me at least, translates that there is still a large chunk of players who have a generic like view of Traveller, but probably also appreciate the OTU for what it is.

And, based on the testimonials here, it seems like people have no problem with treating the OTU as a suggestion rather than a hard "must use" setting.

Most interesting :)

My view is that in any kind of role-playing game, be it somewhat historical (like Space: 1889), fantasy, or science fiction, any official background is for guidance and suggestion only, to be modified as necessary, sometimes drastically. The rules for the games are fair game as well.

Most of the military board and miniature games that I play, I tamper to a greater or lesser degree with the rules. The only exception to that is the Mayfair railroad game series.
 
That's very interesting. My suspicion is that there's still a group of people who may be using Traveller to create general sci-fi games with elements of known properties, and then drawing on the Imperium as filler when needed.

Therefore it's not so much the Imperium but the game and story that's interesting, although the Imperium offers a kind of fail safe should there be a hole in a customized empire for a gaming session.

Great responses. Thanks.
 
The Third Imperium setting is important to some people and not important to others. That's hardly surprising. Assuming for purposes of argument that one can deduct anything from the poll (which I consider pretty iffy), it would be that the OTU is important to 51% of whatever group the poll represents and very important to 34% more. It is of little or no importance only to 15%.


Hans
 
Well then why are you citing my poll results and bothering to post here? I'm curious why you decry the author's stated intent for the Imperium, then make a big deal about decrying it, then open up a new thread asking for an explanation, and then come back here, cite my poll, then say you're not interested in my poll, but just the comments.

To me it doesn't sound like you have any interest in the game so much as just challenging that which has been established. I have no problem with that, but I would think you're better served coming up with your Customized TU.

*EDIT*
It sounds like you're lobbying for the game to be changed.
 
Well then why are you citing my poll results and bothering to post here?
Because I doubt that the conclusions you set forth in your post are sound.

I'm curious why you decry the author's stated intent for the Imperium...
I didn't decry Marc Miller's intentions, I questioned the expression of those intentions, if you want to put it that way.

Though as I understand it, a lot of it was the expression of the other GDW people's views, which is why MM is reportedly planning to retcon the setting. But be that as it may, I try to stick to what is current canon, not what may or may not be retconned in the future.

...then make a big deal about decrying it...
I expressed my opinion of how well those intentions have been expressed, yes. I believe these boards are open for the expression of opinions.

...then open up a new thread asking for an explanation...
I was exploring the possibility that I had misunderstood something.

...and then come back here, cite my poll, then say you're not interested in my poll, but just the comments.
The two are not related. I "came back here" as you call it (I'm unaware that I ever left) and cited your poll to make a point about one of your posts, as explained above.

To me it doesn't sound like you have any interest in the game so much as just challenging that which has been established.
(I'm assuming that by 'the game' you actually mean 'the OTU'.)

No matter how it sounds to you, I'm very much interested in enhancing the coherence and self-consistency of the Third Imperium setting. I rarely challenge anything that has been established unless it contradicts something else that has also been established1. If two or more canonical statements contradict each other, I will "decry" the one that I consider the least well supported, by logic, by common sense, or by other canon statements. And I don't see anything odious about that, nor do I feel I deserve to be berated for doing so.
1 Or is self-contradictory. Or silly.

I have no problem with that, but I would think you're better served coming up with your Customized TU.
You're wrong about that. I could never have created as much background material on my own as sticking (more or less) the OTU gives me access to.

*EDIT*
It sounds like you're lobbying for the game to be changed.
Certainly I'm lobbying for some aspects of the OTU to be changed. I've been doing that for decades, and I've even succeeded in having a few things2 changed. Is that a problem for you? The various editors and suchlike that I have delat with have not always agreed with me3, but as far as I am aware none of them have had a problem with my lobbying.
2 Though not, alas and alack, nearly as many as I would heve liked. :D

3 See note 2.

Hans
 
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