Genetics, Cybernetics, and freaks, oh my

[justacaveman]

Dragonstar is a Fantasy/Sci-Fi D20 game wich has Spellware, some of wich act like cybernetics, and some that are cyberware to all intents and purposes.

The major limiting factor for the amount of spellware that a character has is that experience points must be spent on learning to use each enhancement.

This approach would work with true cybernetics. If you require the character to use feats and experience points for cybernetics, you will allow for cyberware without letting players munchkin things up too much. There shouldn't be a feat required for each piece of equipment, a feat for each category of equipment would be sufficient. Categories could be Internal enhancements, Limb enhancements, Sensory enhancements, and Built-in weaponry.

Also Dragonstar has robots and rules for upgrading them that would be useful for cybernetics. Indeed much of the equipment is useful itself.

 

[Spinward Scout]

If anyone knows how to convert Alternity or GURPS to d20, there are already rules in both of those systems for Mutations and Cybernetics. I myself am already used to using the d20 rules, so I really would like to convert all of that over.

Scout

 

[justacaveman]

There was an Alternity D20 conversion document at ENWorld's website. It may still be available.

I believe I have a copy somewhere. I have the Alternity books in storage since I no longer use them, if I get the time I'll take them out and look into the conversion.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

What solutions be done with wounded in field hospitals during a hi-tech war? Growing cloned parts would take time, wouldn't they? Perhaps cybernetic replacement parts occur as surgery in the field. Vacc-suit, issues aside (which earlier was a good point), soldier is out and back in the field. Cloned replacement could occur later, once you have been sent to a vet hospital to have your cybernetics removed, cloned parts put in and then discharged. And then there would be the black market to get cyberware

(Cut to holovid ca. 1004 Imp.)
"FRANK, I told you to be careful with fusing that interface circuit to that nerve! Now arm arm is swinging about out of control around the patient!"

"Shut up Pierce. Its your fault! If you and Hunnecut hadn't taken the original circuit to use as a Christmas blinker light circuit for one of your parties, I wouldn't have had this problem."

 

[justacaveman]

I'm not sure that limbs could ever be cloned as separate parts. Arms and legs are full of completely unrelated tissues such as skin, blood vessels, and bone etc.. Complete bodies and certain organs could be cloned, but the more complex the part, the less likely you could grow it separate from a body. Any cloning would take months to complete (assuming rapid growth technolgy is developed) so cybernetic parts would be a viable alternative to a long wait. Also there would be legal and ethical considerations to cloning. Does a cloned body have civil rights?

 

[gardclan]

Originally posted by LordRhys:
I'm not sure that limbs could ever be cloned as separate parts. Arms and legs are full of completely unrelated tissues such as skin, blood vessels, and bone etc..

I'm not so sure about that. There was an article on PBS (Scientific American Frontiers, IIRC) a few months back about exactly this sort of thing. The curent project is to be able to clone a working heart for patients using a consumable "scaffolding" material for the cells to graft to.

They don't yet have a working heart, per se, but they do have cardiac grafts of beating cells that could very soon be used to replace damaged heart tissue. The goal is to be able to clone a complete replacement heart within five years or so.

If they can do a heart at TL-8/9, what can they do at TL-13+? (Barring agency approvals, of course... but who wants to deal with the FDA in a GAME?)

 

[MegaCredit]

Originally posted by hunter:
This area is touch upon (although rather lightly) in the T20 core book. You will (hopefully) see more in a forthcoming supplement.

Hunter

I have done some game design work in the past. At one Origins (1990 Dragoncon/Origins) in Atlanta I pitched a scifi game Called Centennial that I had written. The game had a simple but effective system for cybernetics. I have since converted it for d20 system. Would you be interested in seeing some of the work for a possible T20 product or article?

I earn my living in the mortgage industry. This is for love not money!

 

[BluWolf]

I think Genetic mods and cybertech could be and SHOULD be handled using the Template concept.

Once I ACTUALLY get my copy of T20 I will start developing this idea and psot some stuff here.

I will be using Sanity from CoC IMTU so that is one way I will probably balance, also SOC and ability mods as well.

I know there was a Dungeon/Polyhedron that dealt with the concept of Halfgolems as a template.

That would probably be a good place to start???

 

[eclipse]

Originally posted by trader jim:
all the known gods help us!!!! TWO HEADED VARGR!!
oooooo noooooo

It's the 3 headed Vargr named Cerberus that will worry me.

The 3 headed Vargr named Fluffy will be less of a problem.

 

[justacaveman]

Templates, good idea!

 

[Spinward Scout]

<<<I'm not sure that limbs could ever be cloned as separate parts.>>>

Actually, as far as I've been able to tell from what I've read of stem cell research, there are two types of cells - undifferentiated and differentiated. Undifferentiated can turn into anything, and differentiated can only turn into the type of cell it's been differentiated for. In a recent Discover magazine, they dropped a bit of differentiated stem cells into someone's damaged eye and it completely replaced the scar tissue to the point where you couldn't tell it had ever been damaged. The implications of this are amazing. There would never be a need to clone replacement parts. You just need a vat of stem cells. It's like a magic potion or the fountain of youth. If the research ever gets approved to go forward, you may have something like this in 10 or 20 years. Now I don't know exactly how they cultivate something like this, but I think some of the research was done with aborted fetuses, which would never go forward with a conservative Republican in office. Not that I want to start an argument about that, so let's just say I don't know. If they could come up with a large amount of stem cells, you could repair any damage. Brain tissue could be repaired, but you would never get memories back, or the neural pathways.

Later,

Scout

 

[Jame]

What are the social ramifications in Traveller? Especially if someone gets them more for social reasons, or when one wants an "upgrade" to eliminate asthma or improve dexterity - non-essential bio-alteration?

 

[jfwking]

Originally posted by Jame:
What are the social ramifications in Traveller? Especially if someone gets them more for social reasons, or when one wants an "upgrade" to eliminate asthma or improve dexterity - non-essential bio-alteration?

This is part of traveler that harks back to technology of the 80s. Current medical technology is good and predictions for the next 20 years push past things availalbe at tech 15. Using techniques being developed now you should be able to rebuild your self. 100lb weakling, no problem we simply stimulate muscle growth. New face, no problem, too tall/short/fat/thin. Again no problem. The only way to identify people will be dna and even that is risky with resequencing.
It comes down to the money, if you can afford it then you get it.

Aging, is another one. Statins and such like limit the effects of aging now extending physical middle age. 120 year life spans are expected for the next generation or three.

What happens when the life span can be extended past a few generations if you have the cash, didn't Elizabeth moon touch on this in one of her series of books. The problems in a society where acidents or wars become the only way most rich families lose people. No inheritance because the old man is still going strong with 8 or 10 generations of his family to attend his birthdays.

Lots of assasinations going on in the great noble families I suspect

 

[Spyder_GS]

For cybernetics there is a D20 book called Digital Burn. I have it, though haven't had a chance to look at it yet. I am not certain how well it will mesh with T20. The only thing I have seen for genetic or bio-mods is GURPS which I am reluctant to try to integrate.

 

[rlvargas]

There are too many things we do not know about the human genome to answer questions like, will stem cells be the answer to all of our problems. Undifferentiated stem cells still have the DNA of whomever they came from.

I could see in a future like Traveller that on high technology societies everyone has cultures of their own stem cells taken at birth and saved. This is done now, but the uses are limited. (http://www.nature.com/nsu/030203/030203-4.html and http://www.cordblood.com/index.asp ) It is conceivable that these cells could be used to replace body parts and cure diseases at the right tech level and that we just don't have the know-how right now. This could also lead to many plot hooks.

I don't see having generic stem cells and changing their genetic material as very efficient, but it could be done for people who come from primitive worlds or those that don't have banked stem cells of their own.

My opinion is that even with advanced genetic technology, advanced bionics would be able to produce more powerful arms and legs. This wouldn't make them ideal at all, though, since nothing would be like a natural, warm, arm that is capable of the gamut of sensations that the skin in our hands can experience. Personally I would go for the natural arm everyday, but societies in Traveller are very diverse so there probably is a market for genetic, cybernetic and hybrid enhancements.

T20 has taken a very conservative approach to genetics, which I actually prefer to the "let's make stuff up that does not make sense" school of creative writing. RNA memory implants is a throwback to a 1960's concept called memory molecules that was abandoned a long time ago. I would leave it as a misnomer. Misnomers are widespread in medicine but since people become comfortable with terminology the names just stick. So it would still be called RNA memory implants but it is actually changing the synaptic structure in the brain. The other technologies explained, I could see as viable in the future.

 

[TKalbfus]

Speaking of genetics, has anyone here ever read Poul Anderson's Virgin Planet? It was written in 1959, but given the lastest advances in cloning today it seems entirely possible to occur in the Traveller Universe. For those of you who don't know, it is about a spaceship that crashes on an uninhabited Gardenworld planet to use Traveller parlance. The survivors are all women and there is medical equipment onboard the spaceship. The women are stuck on the planet for a long time so they begin cloning themselves though a technique call parthenogenisis. Basically they induce an unfertalized undivided ovum (egg cell) to divide and produce a fetus in their own wombs without fertilization. the baby produces is a clone of the mother. Over the course of 300 years a whole society of such clones develops until they are contacted by an explorer. This may be Pulp science fiction, but in retrospect the cloning aspect of it seems entirely possibly.

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

Ahh! an excellent book indeed, Lord Tom!

May I also submit
Frank Herbert's "Eyes of Hiesenberg" to the bibliography?


(bows)

 

[snrdg082102]

Evening all,

Just an aside, the use of gentic and cybernetic enhancements are not a corner stone of the OTU. There are instances of such enhancements, but usually as an adventure seed, which the PC party is supposed to stop. If wide spread use of nanotech, another piece of advanced technology not apart of the OTU, genetice manipualtion, or cybernetic enhancements is desired play something like GURPS:Transhuman Space or the FASA game using cybernetics.

Of course using gentic manipulation or cybernetics occassionally can enhance the GMs plots. Concerned long time Traveller player/vehicle designer.

 

[TKalbfus]

I agree. Nanotech is great for supercivilizations of tech level greater than 16. It is good for ancient artifacts, but it shouldn't be in every day use in a traveller setting. Biotech is fine as far as I'm concerned as all it does is create new creatures. I think biotech should be kept realistic though Bioengineered characters shouldn't be able to fly through the air like superman, stretch like rubber of have "spider senses" Traveller does have Psionics though. One possibility would be to have a research station doing biotech research with a goal of creating a superpsionic individual. Lets say it is a telepath with the ability to communicate in real time over interstellar distances or even from jumpspace. that would make a great plot seed. What also if that person was still a child and he or she escaped from the research station and the authorities are after her and what if that person were to come in contact with the player characters? Great plot device don't you think?

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello Tom Kalbfus,

Yes, Psionics is a part of Traveller, which I thought I stated in my post. However, the use of psionics has not been over powering in any of the versions I have participated in as a party member with a PC. Genetics/Biotech, and cybernetics are also mentioned, but usually as restricted, if not highly illegal, activities. As a long time Traveller fan I see the unrestricted use of gentics and cybernetics as moving totally outside the core concepts of Traveller. This sort of change, in my view, destroys the OTU and makes for a totally different setting.

Having a Traveller party engaged in an adventure that involves genetics and/or cybernetics is well within the OTU. The adventure you describe in your post is a great idea. However, the wide scale use of genetic/biotech engineering changes the game balance.

One final comment, Traveller has always been a setting that the individual GMs/players have a wide latitude of making a universe they feel comfortable with. So, if the wide spread use of genetics or cybernetics is what is wanted then by all means use the technology.

Originally posted by Tom Kalbfus:
I agree. Nanotech is great for supercivilizations of tech level greater than 16. It is good for ancient artifacts, but it shouldn't be in every day use in a traveller setting. Biotech is fine as far as I'm concerned as all it does is create new creatures. I think biotech should be kept realistic though Bioengineered characters shouldn't be able to fly through the air like superman, stretch like rubber of have "spider senses" Traveller does have Psionics though. One possibility would be to have a research station doing biotech research with a goal of creating a superpsionic individual. Lets say it is a telepath with the ability to communicate in real time over interstellar distances or even from jumpspace. that would make a great plot seed. What also if that person was still a child and he or she escaped from the research station and the authorities are after her and what if that person were to come in contact with the player characters? Great plot device don't you think?