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OTU Only: Gypsy Queen Class Fast Merchant, LBB2, 199Td, J26GP7

I don't know ... I only have the same list of rules that you do to go by. REPORT my post and we can let an ADMIN decide ... then we will both know.
Clearly, no malice was intended (I hope the humor came across ... I WAS being VERY pedantic to argue the PP does not contain the word "Drive").
I have learned to my cost that internet forums do not convey humour very well. Even if the conversation involve people who regularly "banter" with each other and have the utmost respect for one another. I'm not bothered in the slightest by the term, or your use of it, and I am often guilty of pedantry :)
For what it is worth, I agree that it is clear that their INTENT was that DRIVE for DRIVE TABLE meant MD, JD and PP. I was just pointing out the sort of technicality that a PP is not a "Drive" by the common definition of that term which is akin to the technicality that a 77 ship could have a JD without a PP (even if that didn't make sense).
That's why I posted the relevant text, it is certainly a point for discussion.
If one WANTED a larger PP, the rules DO SAY "Drive" ... so that is an interpretation of the RAW that is not contradicted by the actual TEXT.
I agree it is woolly, I wonder if there was clarification errata :)
As I stated earlier, the "more fuel for same PP in a smaller Hull" (a core feature of LBB2 design) pushed me towards High Guard as an infinitely better ship design mechanic. The only real "fix" that HG needed was PP cost is per EP rather than per dTon. Now all ships are not forced to be HIGH TL for economic reasons ... they can compete with LBB2 ships. [and you get Small Craft Design with HG as a bonus].
I've been toying with TL/10 x EP, in MCr, for power plant cost,
 
Your home-brew formula is not consistent with the Drive Potential Table.
What's the potential of a J-drive in a 2000 Dt hull?
What's the potential of a J-drive in a 400 Dt hull?
Because the Drive Potential Table does not consistently follow its own rules ... OR ... there is a typo that has never been corrected.
I'm putting my money on TYPO.

iiMIC5h.png


A-B-C-D-E-F-G-H-J = 9
9 * 200 = code: 1 @ 1800

What's the potential of a J-drive in a 2000 Dt hull?

1800 / 2000 = Code: 0.9 ... so should be a - instead of a 1 ... therefore, a typo.

Note that the error is not repeated for Drive-P in a 3000 ton hull.

A-B-C-D-E-F-G-H-J-K-L-M-N-P = 14
14 * 200 = code: 1 @ 2800

If the "rule" for filling out the LBB2.81, p22 table was "round 0.9 up to nearest integer" then Drive-P @ 3000 tons should ALSO yield code: 1 ... but it doesn't.

For additional corroborating evidence that Drive-J @ 2000 tons being code: 1 is a typo, consider the rather obvious progression present within the table. I'll highlight the parts that (rather obviously) "break the pattern" in bold.
  • 2 4 6
  • 1 2 3 4 5 6
  • - 1 1 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 5 6 6
  • - - 1 1 1 2 2 2 3 3 3 4 4 4 5 5 5 6 6 6
  • - - - 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 3 4 4 4 4 5 5 6 6 6
  • - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 3 3 4 5 6 6 6
  • - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 3 4 6
Do you SEE the pattern break? :oops:
  • 100 = +2 per 1
  • 200 = +1 per 1
  • 400 = +1 per 2
  • 600 = +1 per 3
  • 800 = +1 per 4
  • 1000 = +1 per 5
So how many "1" results show up on each line?
  • 100 = 0
  • 200 = 1
  • 400 = 2
  • 600 = 3
  • 800 = 4
  • 1000 = 5
  • 2000 = 11
Count them.
Here's the table printed in LBB2.81, p22.
Count the quantity of times the number 1 shows up on the 2000 line.

iiMIC5h.png


I count 11 times ... not 10.

If 2000 is "double" 1000 (and in the math I use, it is) ... then the precedent and pattern of "1000 tons gets 5 results of code: 1" should ipso facto mean that "2000 tons get 10 results of code: 1" ... but it doesn't ... it goes to 11.

Blindingly obvious conclusion ... Drive-J @ 2000 tons = code: 1 is CLEARLY a typo/misprint in the table.

Additional evidence: Count the - results on the left hand side of the table.
  • 100 = 0
  • 200 = 0
  • 400 = 1
  • 600 = 2
  • 800 = 3
  • 1000 = 4
  • 2000 = 8
  • 3000 = 14
Now I don't know about everyone else's idea of math (Your Mileage May Vary warning ... :cautious:), but ... where I come from:
  • 2000 is halfway between 1000 and 3000
  • 8 is NOT halfway between 4 and 14 ... (the correct answer is 9, not 8).


Therefore, by MULTIPLE PROOFS ... the entry of Drive-J @ 2000 tons yielding code: 1 IS IN ERROR.
This is the problem with relying on tables, rather than formulas, to proof your work. When information in the table is wrong, people jump to the wrong conclusions with confidence.



Your witness, counselor.
 
I have to ask ... are there any CANON 2000 dTon ships with a J drive?
Yes, the Imperiallines 2000t ships in The Traveller Adventure

There is a 2000t Zhodani Council cruiser in AM:4, and a strike cruiser in A:7

edit - sorry I lacked the context of what you were asking - I thought you mean J as in jump not J as in type of drive.
 
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Depends on how you squint.

If you take ALL of the engineering factors into account (drives+fuel tankage) then LBB2 and LBB5 are "within kissing distance" of each other.

The difference is that ratio between drives and fuel can vary WILDLY between the two paradigms ... while the actual tonnages involved in aggregate total wind up being reasonably close. You CAN wind up with some edge cases where LBB2 drives are "more economical" for a variety of reasons than LBB5 drives will be in the exact same application, but that's just a consequence of following two different design paradigms rather than being a "bug" in the system.
Which is why in general I am satisfied in leaving the two systems separate as being different engineering standards- B2 for modular mass production mass support common daily driver/trucks, B5 for custom made/big ships.

Problem is mixing them in combat, unsatisfying to just alter B2 ships to B5 stats, no provision for range handling for B5 ships in B2 maneuver, damage works a bit weird for B5 anyway particularly with maneuver drive, and Mayday conversion is unpalatable for RPG purposes. Hence my IMTU hybrid combat system.
 
And where is the errata for the Drive Potential Table?
Are you trying to assert that absence of evidence is therefore evidence of absence?

I provided my PROOFS (multiple), above. I even used MATH to do so!
I laid out everything needed to reach the same conclusions I did.
The fact that you continue to refuse to engage on the merits of the arguments I've presented is ... telling. :cautious:
And where is the errata for the Drive Potential Table?
Short answer: No one bothered checking, let alone reverse engineering the formula(s) needed to generate the lookup table until I did (and made an issue of it).

Just because the official errata doesn't include it (yet) doesn't mean that the remaining RAW is 🙏 "perfect, inviolate and immutable" 🙏 for all time ("amen, amen, amen") without flaw or error in it. :unsure:

The official errata includes DOZENS of errors per book for LBB1-2.81 (LBB3.81 gets off light with only 6 errata listed).
Why are you assuming that ALL of the errors in the RAW have been found and documented?

NUMEROUS other errors were found in the LBB1-3.81 RAW ... therefore it is UNpossible for there to any more errors that haven't been discovered/acknowledged yet?

The fact that you are resisting THIS HARD against admitting the obvious is ... telling. :cautious:
 
You did a house rule.

Your house rule does not prove RAW wrong.
That's (at least) THREE TIMES IN A ROW that you have resolutely refused to engage with the merits of an argument made in good faith.
That is telling.

Until you can refute the MATH that was presented, you don't have a legitimate ... good faith ... counter-argument that is likewise grounded in MATH.



When the law is on your side, pound the law.
When the facts are on your side, pound the facts.
When neither are on your side ... pound the table.
 
That's (at least) THREE TIMES IN A ROW that you have resolutely refused to engage with the merits of an argument made in good faith.
The argument that RAW is wrong because it's inconsistent with your house rule?
My counter argument remains that RAW is RAW and house rules are house rules.
You can make whatever house rules you want, no problem, they are just not RAW.


Until you can refute the MATH that was presented, you don't have a legitimate ... good faith ... counter-argument that is likewise grounded in MATH.
The math is house rule you presented that is inconsistent with RAW, specifically for a J-drive in a 2000 Dt hull. Is that specific enough?
 
You're looking through the wrong end of the telescope. :cautious:

If a power plant is Rating=1 in X tons, it produces 1xTons/100 EP and always does -- as you see it (and, again, I mostly agree!) However, if the performance table says it produces a different value (due to rounding effects) in a different hull, that's what it produces in that hull according to the rules as written. So, per RAW, drives T, U, and V in a 600Td hull produce exactly the same quantity of EPs despite being different sizes.

EPs are already rated by hull size.

As advertised ... people are looking at this through the wrong end of the telescope. :cautious:
I was hoping I wouldn't need to explain what that meant (in this context), but it appears I have no choice. 😓

Let's look at this objectively, shall we? :rolleyes:



There are two methods for dealing with this issue.
  1. USP controls what can be put into a craft.
  2. USP simplistically describes what has been put into a craft in a concise and convenient format.
The purpose of the USP is mainly to simplify LBB5.80 combat resolution.
I contend that the USP values are a RESULT of what gets built into a craft, rather than a determinant of what CAN be put into a craft when designing such a craft.



For example ...

Let's say we're working with a 700 ton hull (to disambiguate the implications of what I'll be outlining) @ TL=11.

We want max acceleration and agility, so achieving Agility=6 in a 700 ton form factor will cost 42 EP.

The highest computer model available is a model/5 (3 EP) and we want to arm our craft for a system defense role, so 7 hardpoints with turrets on them.

We want 1x triple laser turret (3 EP) for "shots across the bow" type stuff. The other 6 hardpoints will mount triple missiles and triple sandcasters (0 EP). The craft will have no screens (0 EP).

So the total EP demand for this craft is: 42+3+3 = 48 EP
Question:
  • Is it possible to build a power plant in a 700 ton hull that generates 48 EP exactly (no more, no less)?



If you're "working the system" the way that @Grav_Moped and @mike wightman appear to be doing, letting the USP "control" what is available to choose from, the answer is a resounding NO. 🛑

You can have a power plant that generates 42 EP (code: 6 @ 700 tons) or 49 EP (code: 7 @ 700 tons) but you CANNOT HAVE a power plant that generates (only) 48 EP (code: 6.85714286 @ 700 tons) because you can't put a floating point number into the USP, only integers.

This in turn means that @ TL=11, your power plant must be either 42*3=126 tons (code: 6, 42 EP) or 49*3=147 tons (code: 7, 49 EP) ... but CANNOT POSSIBLY BE exactly 48*3=144 tons (code: 6.85714286 @ 700 tons). ANY power plant tonnage that is not a "multiple of 7" is simply NOT ALLOWED. :mad:

Do not pass GO.
Do not collect MCr200.

That's "one way of looking through the telescope" of possibilities for how to build craft using LBB5.80. 😅




The other way of doing things (which is basically "looking the OTHER way through the telescope") is to start with the EPs you need, determine how many tons of power plant you need to supply that and then "simplify" the result into something that can be represented in the USP.

How do you "deal with fractions" when encoding into the USP?
Simple.
You drop fractions and round down to resolve to the integer.

This means that you CAN build a 144 tons = 48 EP power plant into a 700 ton hull using LBB5.80 ... but the USP code for it is ... 6 ... because 6.85714286 dropping fractions and rounding down to resolve to the integer yields code: 6.

In actual USP coding this would work out like so:

XX-7XX665X-X?0000-?000?-X MCr? 700 tons
Agility=6. EP=48.




Is seeing EP=48 in a USP stat block for a 700 ton craft ... UNpossible? :eek:

No ... no it's not.
It might be unexpected but it's not impossible.
It would certainly help to have "more details" about the design than what the USP block alone will provide, but that's the province of Fluff Text™ and class history fleshing out the design of the class (and the reasoning behind the "non-standard" result that isn't a typo).



Alright, so if battle damage is taken to the power plant, what does its EP output drop down to then? :rolleyes:
Haha! Gotcha! 😤

Actually, no you haven't. :sneaky:



For the @Grav_Moped or @mike wightman class designs, in order generate 48 EP in a 700 ton hull, a code: 7 power plant is MANDATORY which @ TL=11 will require 147 tons and will generate 49 EP ... yielding a wasted surplus +1 EP that the design cannot make use of.

A power plant -1 damage hit would reduce the power plant from code: 7 to code: 6, at which point it will only be generating 42 EP.

Hopefully that makes sense to everyone reading this far.
We good? :rolleyes:



For my way of dealing with the class design, in order to generate 48 EP in a 700 ton hull, a code: 6 power plant is needed which @ TL=11 will require 144 tons and will generate 48 EP ... yielding a wasted surplus of 0 EP by design.

A power plant -1 damage hit would reduce the power plant from code: 6 to code: 5, at which point it will only be generating 35 EP ... not 41 EP.

Hopefully that also makes sense to everyone who has read this far. 😅



It's a more "complicated" way of doing things, but it doesn't suffer from issues of Premature Optimization that can block off creative opportunities in the design of craft in Traveller.
Your mileage may vary, of course ... depending on which end of the telescope you choose to look through. ;)

2eby8A1.jpeg
 
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