AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
So, your proposed formula is inconsistent with RAW.
The Drive Potential Table is a table, not a linear function.
OTU Only: Gypsy Queen Class Fast Merchant, LBB2, 199Td, J26GP7
- Thread starter Grav_Moped
- Start date
The Drive Potential Table is a table, not a linear function.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
You can lead a man to water ...
I've got the rules mysticism thing going. RAW is the tables and nothing else -- these are the only possible drives, and they behave exactly as listed in the table. That's fine.
The difference here is that I see the tables as a set of point cases of the underlying in-universe engineering principles, and possibly an inexactly recorded one at that -- with the deviations being for out-of-universe reasons of playability. The tables are useful.
Not really -- and that gets to what I really like about the LBB2/3 paradigm: at all tech levels, there is a tradeoff between size and performance; higher tech just pushes out the curve along which those tradeoffs happen. LBB5 doesn't have the size/performance tradeoff -- it's solely driven by TL and budget.
Also, the Type S Scout/Courier, Type A Free Trader, and XBoat are "natural" outcomes of LBB2, but aren't ones from LBB5. (S: Smallest drives, smallest hull; A: biggest hull that the smallest drives can push; X: the biggest jump drive that can go into the smallest hull leaves no room for an M-Drive.)
LBB5's minimal ship is 100Td, J1/1G. Is it a scoutship? might be, might not -- but there'd be a lot of them. Much less demand for J2/2G in 100Td if that's not the minimum viable starship any longer. And, is there any reason for a general-purpose scoutship to be J2/2G, and not, say, J3, or 5G? The basic merchant ship will be J1/1G but why would it be 200Td in particular, especially without Standard Hull discounts? The main messenger fleet ship isn't necessarily going to be J4 (depending on available TL) and it will almost certainly have a maneuver drive. And so forth.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
LBB:5 states that for sub1000t ships the LBB:2 crew rules should be used.
So the 199t LBB:5 is still a single crewman ship - I wonder how the costs weigh up?
So the 199t LBB:5 is still a single crewman ship - I wonder how the costs weigh up?
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
Not great, just about breaks even:
Code:
AL-1611111-000000-00000-0 MCr 47,6 199 Dton
bearing Crew=1
batteries TL=12
Cargo=132 Fuel=21,8 EP=1,99 Agility=1
Single Occupancy 132,2 59,4
USP # Dton Cost
Hull, Streamlined Custom 1 199
Configuration Flattened Sphe 6 15,9
Scoops Streamlined 0,2
Jump Drive 1 1 4,0 15,9
Manoeuvre D 1 1 4,0 6,0
Power Plant 1 1 6,0 17,9
Fuel, #J, #weeks J-1, 4 weeks 1 21,9
Purifier 1 6 0,0
Bridge 1 20 1,0
Computer m/1 1 1 1 2
Staterooms 1 4 0,5
Cargo 132,2
Nominal Cost MCr 59,44 Sum: 132,2 59,4
Class Cost MCr 12,48 Valid ≥0 ≥0
Ship Cost MCr 47,56
Crew & High 0 Crew Bridge 1
Passengers Mid 0 1 Engineers 0
Low 0 Gunners 0
Extra SR 0 Frozen Service 0
# Frozen W 0 0 Flight 0
Marines 0 Marines 0
Estimated Economy of Ship Standard
Ship price Down Payment Mortgage Avg Filled
MCr 47,56 kCr 9 511 kCr 198 80%
Expenses per jump Revenue
Bank Cr 95 110 High Cr 0
Fuel Cr 2 189 Middle Cr 0
Life Support Cr 2 000 Low Cr 0
Salaries Cr 2 400 Cargo Cr 104 000
Maintenance Cr 1 902
Berthing Cr 199
Summa kCr 104 kCr 104
Income potential per jump kCr 0
Yearly yield on down payment 0,1%But a lot better than the 200 Dt ship, losing money every jump unless completely filled every jump:
Code:
AL-2611111-000000-00000-0 MCr 48,6 200 Dton
bearing Crew=3
batteries TL=12
Cargo=125 Fuel=22 EP=2 Agility=1
Single Occupancy 125 60,7
USP # Dton Cost
Hull, Streamlined Custom 2 200
Configuration Flattened Sphe 6 16
Scoops Streamlined 0,2
Jump Drive 1 1 4 16
Manoeuvre D 1 1 4 6
Power Plant 1 1 6 18
Fuel, #J, #weeks J-1, 4 weeks 1 22
Purifier 1 6 0,0
Bridge 1 20 1
Computer m/1 1 1 1 2
Staterooms 3 12 1,5
Cargo 125
Nominal Cost MCr 60,73 Sum: 125 60,7
Class Cost MCr 12,75 Valid ≥0 ≥0
Ship Cost MCr 48,58
Crew & High 0 Crew Bridge 1
Passengers Mid 0 3 Engineers 1
Low 0 Gunners 0
Extra SR 0 Frozen Service 1
# Frozen W 0 0 Flight 0
Marines 0 Marines 0
Estimated Economy of Ship Standard
Ship price Down Payment Mortgage Avg Filled
MCr 48,58 kCr 9 717 kCr 202 80%
Expenses per jump Revenue
Bank Cr 97 168 High Cr 0
Fuel Cr 2 200 Middle Cr 0
Life Support Cr 6 000 Low Cr 0
Salaries Cr 5 760 Cargo Cr 100 000
Maintenance Cr 1 943
Berthing Cr 200
Summa kCr 113 kCr 100
Income potential per jump kCr -13
Yearly yield on down payment -3,4%AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
The LBB2 Free Trader-ish is cheaper because of the standard hull, breaks even:
Note that it can't use unrefined fuel, so is limited to major starports...
Code:
AL-2611111-000000-00000-0 MCr 32,9 200 Dton
bearing Crew=3
batteries TL=12
Cargo=122 Fuel=30 EP=2 Agility=1
Single Occupancy LBB2 design 122 36,5
USP # Dton Cost
Hull, Streamlined 200 Dt 2 200
Configuration Flattened Sphe 6 10
Scoops Streamlined
Jump Drive A 1 1 10 10
Manoeuvre D A 1 1 1 4
Power Plant A 1 1 4 8
Fuel, #J, #weeks J-1, 4 weeks 1 30
Bridge 1 20 1
Computer m/1 1 1 1 2
Staterooms 3 12 1,5
Cargo 122
Nominal Cost MCr 36,50 Sum: 122 36,5
Class Cost MCr 4,02 Valid ≥0 ≥0
Ship Cost MCr 32,85
Crew & High 0 Crew Bridge 1
Passengers Mid 0 3 Engineers 1
Low 0 Gunners 0
Extra SR 0 Frozen Service 1
# Frozen W 0 0 Flight 0
Marines 0 Marines 0
Estimated Economy of Ship Standard
Ship price Down Payment Mortgage Avg Filled
MCr 32,85 kCr 6 570 kCr 137 80%
Expenses per jump Revenue
Bank Cr 65 700 High Cr 0
Fuel Cr 15 000 Middle Cr 0
Life Support Cr 6 000 Low Cr 0
Salaries Cr 5 760 Cargo Cr 96 000
Maintenance Cr 1 314
Berthing Cr 200
Summa kCr 94 kCr 96
Income potential per jump kCr 2
Yearly yield on down payment 0,8%
Last edited:
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
Agreed, that is what LBB2 is.
Then just accept it, and with it the plethora of published designs. Accept the quirks, such as no Agility-6 in LBB5 combat...
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
The best option, at least at lower TLs, is the 199 Dt LBB5 ship with LBB2 drives:
Can potentially make a profit from freight at around kCr 20 per jump of kCr 500 p.a.
Code:
AL-1611111-000000-00000-0 MCr 33,3 199 Dton
bearing Crew=1
batteries TL=12
Cargo=123 Fuel=29,9 EP=1,99 Agility=1
Single Occupancy 123,1 41,6
USP # Dton Cost
Hull, Streamlined Custom 1 199
Configuration Flattened Sphe 6 15,9
Scoops Streamlined 0,2
Jump Drive A 1 1 10 10
Manoeuvre D A 1 1 1 4
Power Plant A 1 1 4 8
Fuel, #J, #weeks J-1, 4 weeks 1 29,9
Purifier 1 6 0,0
Bridge 1 20 1,0
Computer m/1 1 1 1 2
Staterooms 1 4 0,5
Cargo 123,1
Nominal Cost MCr 41,64 Sum: 123,1 41,6
Class Cost MCr 8,75 Valid ≥0 ≥0
Ship Cost MCr 33,32
Crew & High 0 Crew Bridge 1
Passengers Mid 0 1 Engineers 0
Low 0 Gunners 0
Extra SR 0 Frozen Service 0
# Frozen W 0 0 Flight 0
Marines 0 Marines 0
Estimated Economy of Ship Standard
Ship price Down Payment Mortgage Avg Filled
MCr 33,32 kCr 6 663 kCr 139 80%
Expenses per jump Revenue
Bank Cr 66 630 High Cr 0
Fuel Cr 2 990 Middle Cr 0
Life Support Cr 2 000 Low Cr 0
Salaries Cr 2 400 Cargo Cr 96 000
Maintenance Cr 1 333
Berthing Cr 199
Summa kCr 76 kCr 96
Income potential per jump kCr 20
Yearly yield on down payment 7,7%AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
Of course, if you want to make money, use a Subbie:
Makes something like kCr 70 per jump or MCr 1.75 p.a.
That's a yield of ~13% on the investment (down payment).
Code:
AT-4611111-000000-00000-0 MCr 65,9 400 Dton
bearing Crew=4
batteries TL=12
Cargo=282 Fuel=50 EP=4 Agility=1
Single Occupancy 282 82,4
USP # Dton Cost
Hull, Streamlined Custom 4 400
Configuration Flattened Sphe 6 32
Scoops Streamlined 0,4
Jump Drive B 1 1 15 20
Manoeuvre D B 1 1 3 8
Power Plant B 1 1 7 16
Fuel, #J, #weeks J-1, 4 weeks 1 50
Purifier 1 6 0,0
Bridge 1 20 2
Computer m/1 1 1 1 2
Staterooms 4 16 2
Cargo 282
Nominal Cost MCr 82,43 Sum: 282 82,4
Class Cost MCr 17,31 Valid ≥0 ≥0
Ship Cost MCr 65,94
Crew & High 0 Crew Bridge 2
Passengers Mid 0 4 Engineers 1
Low 0 Gunners 0
Extra SR 0 Frozen Service 1
# Frozen W 0 0 Flight 0
Marines 0 Marines 0
Estimated Economy of Ship Standard
Ship price Down Payment Mortgage Avg Filled
MCr 65,94 kCr 13 189 kCr 275 80%
Expenses per jump Revenue
Bank Cr 131 888 High Cr 0
Fuel Cr 5 000 Middle Cr 0
Life Support Cr 8 000 Low Cr 0
Salaries Cr 8 160 Cargo Cr 224 000
Maintenance Cr 2 638
Berthing Cr 400
Summa kCr 156 kCr 224
Income potential per jump kCr 68
Yearly yield on down payment 12,9%That's a yield of ~13% on the investment (down payment).
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
Not a Scout, too useless for that.
Barely cheaper than a Scout, but a lot more payload.
Not even remotely profitable, of course:
Code:
AL-1611111-000000-00000-0 MCr 24,9 100 Dton
bearing Crew=1
batteries TL=9
Cargo=48 Fuel=11 EP=1 Agility=1
Single Occupancy 48 31,1
USP # Dton Cost
Hull, Streamlined Custom 1 100
Configuration Flattened Sphe 6 8
Scoops Streamlined 0,1
Jump Drive 1 1 2 8
Manoeuvre D 1 1 2 3
Power Plant 1 1 3 9
Fuel, #J, #weeks J-1, 4 weeks 1 11
Purifier 1 9 0,0
Bridge 1 20 0,5
Computer m/1 1 1 1 2
Staterooms 1 4 0,5
Cargo 48
Nominal Cost MCr 31,14 Sum: 48 31,1
Class Cost MCr 6,54 Valid ≥0 ≥0
Ship Cost MCr 24,91
Crew & High 0 Crew Bridge 1
Passengers Mid 0 1 Engineers 0
Low 0 Gunners 0
Extra SR 0 Frozen Service 0
# Frozen W 0 0 Flight 0
Marines 0 Marines 0
Estimated Economy of Ship Standard
Ship price Down Payment Mortgage Avg Filled
MCr 24,91 kCr 4 982 kCr 104 80%
Expenses per jump Revenue
Bank Cr 49 824 High Cr 0
Fuel Cr 1 100 Middle Cr 0
Life Support Cr 2 000 Low Cr 0
Salaries Cr 2 400 Cargo Cr 36 000
Maintenance Cr 996
Berthing Cr 100
Summa kCr 56 kCr 36
Income potential per jump kCr -20
Yearly yield on down payment -10,2%Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
While these statements and analysis ARE TRUE prima facie, in order to achieve those results they need to operate in permissive environments where the threat of piracy can be completely outsourced to local system defense networks (a reasonable proposition in star systems with type A or B starports).
As soon as you start needing to arm these ships against the threat of piracy, crew salaries go up and passenger revenues go down (although both designs that @AnotherDilbert provided have no passengers in the accounting, which seems ... ahistorical). As soon as ship to ship combat becomes a concern, model/1 computers and 1G maneuver drives basically amount to "sitting duck/wallowing scow" type combat performance ... so you're probably better off with a really good insurance policy instead.
With a crew of 1-4 people on the crew roster, if you get boarded by pirates, odds are "better than average" that you'll become a prisoner and your entire starship asset will get seized by the prize crew (and they won't be inclined to give it back!).
At which point you need to ask ... how long can you operate before "one bad day" loses everything for you while operating one of these "empty shells" that is just a cargo hold and minimum performance drive package attached to it? I mean, sure ... they might be cheap to construct, but you'll want to hold onto them long enough to recoup your investment before they get stolen from you ... right?
These kinds of "no security measures needed" type starships are GREAT for operating in well settled/core regions of space, where there's plenty of system defense to go around for everybody. But as soon as you move out into the frontier where you need to be self-reliant for your own security ... these "all cargo/no protection" type designs are just piggy banks begging to be cracked open by anyone who can swing a hammer.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Why does this one have a 9t fuel purifier?
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
Because refined fuel is EXPENSIVE to keep buying @ Cr500 per ton ... especially when you don't have to.
9 tons of cargo revenue is Cr9000.
50 tons of refined fuel is Cr25,000.
50 tons of unrefined fuel is Cr5000.
The amount of credits you save per jump is Cr20,000 if buying UNrefined starport fuel for a complete refuel (all 50 tons).
That price reduction for 1 complete refueling is worth 2x jumps with 9 tons of cargo ... making the fuel purification plant option CHEAPER in the long run than having more cargo capacity and needing to buy more expensive fuel to avoid misjumps.
Putting fuel purification plants into starships to increase their "independence in operations" is one of those NO BRAINER™ kinds of deals.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
TL-9 minimum size.
And again with me and rules mysticism.
Why would you think LBB2 ships wouldn't have agility=Gs? Components out of LBB2 do not require EPs, so the full power plant output can go to maneuver.
(A Type A Free Trader can have 2 triple laser turrets, on a "2 EP" Size A power plant, under LBB2 RAW. Small craft are different on that point, but the book neglects to mention that it's because they are HG builds.)
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
On agility 6 are you referring to powered weapons sucking down the power plant EP below 6 on B5 power allocation?
Pretty sure, yes. LBB2 power plants can't be rated above 6, so can't make EP above that needed to power a MD-6. Any other EP-using components then drop Agility below 6.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
If they are, they're "unfinished alpha test" HG builds.
Near as I can determine (via reverse engineering), they all have a bridge (because no computer) ... but none of those bridges consume more than 4 tons (when the bridge allocation ought to be 20%, minimum 4 tons, not maximum 4 tons). Even worse, you can arm them with weapons without requiring a computer to be installed (which LBB5.80 explicitly forbids).
If you try to build them (from scratch) using LBB5.80 exclusively ... they don't add up.
If you try to build them (from scratch) using LBB2.81 exclusively ... they don't add up.
If you try to "hybridize" the two design paradigms to "make them work" ... they STILL don't add up correctly (and you can see the duct tape and band-aids trying to hold them together).
That's akin to saying that a Hull code: 1 cannot be larger than 100 tons.
Think about it.
If a Hull code of 1 = 100-199 tons ...
... why can't a Drive code of 6 (integer) = 6.000-6.999 (floating point) ...?
In other words, it ought to be possible to install a power plant that is "larger than the minimum needed for the maneuver drive" in order to have "excess" power capacity for other purposes while still remaining UNDER a code: 7 result when computing EP / Hull Tonnage.
The practical upshot of this is that you can (with the right power plant drive letter) achieve up to (hull code - 1) surplus EP for computer/weapons/etc. without crossing over the threshold into the next higher drive code (in which a result of "7+" is forbidden).
So you CAN build a 600 ton craft with Maneuver-T (code: 6) and Power Plant-V (code: 6, 40 EP) that allocates 36 EP for Agility=6 and has a 4 EP surplus to power computer and weapons/screens.
Or you can simply look at everything through the wrong end of the telescope ... suit yourself.
How to win friends and influence people, eh?Or you can simply look at everything through the wrong end of the telescope ... suit yourself.
Anyhow. The fact that you can determine the formulae underpinning the tables in LBB2, and sensibly extrapolate useful things from them, doesn't change that the written rules don't work that way.
I think they should, but it's not my name on the cover so all I get to do is post about it.
If memory serves, Mongoose does kind of do that in their build system.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
Yes, powered weapons, a combat worthy computer, or anything at all that uses power will reduce the power available to the M-drive.
Agility-6 requires the full output of a PP-6.
