OTU Only: Gypsy Queen Class Fast Merchant, LBB2, 199Td, J26GP7
- Thread starter Grav_Moped
- Start date
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
It's a bare chassis for comparison. Add passenger facilities to taste, it does not change profitability potential all that much.
Only Low Passangers are actually more profitable than freight.
Mid and High Passengers can make it easier to fill the ship as we get more rolls in the simple trade system.
Code:
AL-1611111-000000-00000-0 MCr 33,3 199 Dton
bearing Crew=1
batteries TL=9
Cargo=120 Fuel=29,9 EP=1,99 Agility=1
Spoiler:
Code:
Estimated Economy of Ship Standard
Ship price Down Payment Mortgage Avg Filled
MCr 33,32 kCr 6 665 kCr 139 80%
Expenses per jump Revenue
Bank Cr 66 646 High Cr 0
Fuel Cr 2 990 Middle Cr 0
Life Support Cr 2 000 Low Cr 0
Salaries Cr 2 400 Cargo Cr 96 000
Maintenance Cr 1 333
Berthing Cr 199
Summa kCr 76 kCr 96
Income potential per jump kCr 20
Yearly yield on down payment 7,7%With a few staterooms:
Code:
AL-1611111-000000-00000-0 MCr 36,1 199 Dton
bearing Crew=2
batteries TL=9
Pass=6 Cargo=92 Fuel=29,9 EP=1,99 Agility=1
Spoiler:
Code:
Estimated Economy of Ship Standard
Ship price Down Payment Mortgage Avg Filled
MCr 36,12 kCr 7 225 kCr 151 80%
Expenses per jump Revenue
Bank Cr 72 246 High Cr 24 000
Fuel Cr 2 990 Middle Cr 19 200
Life Support Cr 13 600 Low Cr 0
Salaries Cr 3 840 Cargo Cr 72 000
Maintenance Cr 1 445
Berthing Cr 199
Summa kCr 94 kCr 115
Income potential per jump kCr 21
Yearly yield on down payment 7,2%
The thing about B2 is that it does not use any sort of energy budget, so the fact that you can't get a power plant rating higher than 6 does not matter! That over-gunned Free Trader I mentioned upthread ought to have an Agility rating of negative four, and yet it operates quite normally within B2. Somehow, when you look at it in the HG framework, it's Agility-0 -- and 4EP appear out of nowhere to run the lasers.
I'd even say that it might have agility 1 while still using all the lasers. Nothing in B2 says its acceleration is hampered by all that weaponry...
ETA: HG says so, of course. It also says you can't have all those lasers, and yet it does without any problem.
Two different systems that only appear compatible unless you tweak the rules a bit.
ETA2: Calling it a night. Cheers!
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AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
A standard mortgage is about 5% interest rate over 40 years. If piracy was a major problem, there would be no mortgages or the bank would have gone bankrupt.
Even if we assume the "mortgage" is something like 4% interest and 1% insurance, then the total loss rate of all causes must be significantly lower than 1% p.a. (~0.04% per jump) for the insurance companies to stay in business.
Agreed, M-1 merchant ships with tiny computers have negligible combat value, even with a turret or two. The one thing the turret and gunner will do is destroy profitability.
The same ship as the previous post, but with a turret:
Code:
AL-1611111-020000-10001-0 MCr 37,7 199 Dton
bearing 1 1 1 Crew=3
batteries 1 1 1 TL=9
Pass=6 Cargo=87 Fuel=29,9 EP=1,99 Agility=0
Spoiler:
Code:
Estimated Economy of Ship Standard
Ship price Down Payment Mortgage Avg Filled
MCr 37,72 kCr 7 545 kCr 157 80%
Expenses per jump Revenue
Bank Cr 75 446 High Cr 24 000
Fuel Cr 2 990 Middle Cr 19 200
Life Support Cr 15 600 Low Cr 0
Salaries Cr 4 800 Cargo Cr 68 000
Maintenance Cr 1 509
Berthing Cr 199
Summa kCr 101 kCr 111
Income potential per jump kCr 11
Yearly yield on down payment 3,5%AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
Agreed, in LBB2.
Agreed, the different systems don't mesh perfectly.
In LBB2 yes, in LBB5 no...
We have no specific rules how the handle this, but we have examples, e.g. S9, p21:
M-3, PP-3, Agility-1 in the context of LBB5.
PP-3 = 3 × 800 / 100 = 24 EP.
Four laser turrets plus comp m/5 is 4 × 3 + 3 = 15 EP consumed.
( 24 EP - 15 EP ) / 800 × 100 = 1.125, rounded down to Agility-1.
With LBB2 it can do 3 G guns ablaze, with LBB5 it can only do 1 G.
When not in combat it can do 3 G as normal (aka Emergency Agility).
Different systems, different results, as expected.
(Insomnia is a nuisance.)
Yes. and how you choose to transpose ships from one system to the other makes a significant difference.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Just for giggles tale a LBB:2 scout /courier - install a triple laser turret.
Now rate it in HG80...
2EP available -- can't power the turret (3EP)
or to reduce to absurdity - take the scout and fir the triple turret, and install a model 6 coomputer by removing the air/raft and cargo.
Now rate it in HG80...
2EP availabe -- can't power the computer 6 (5EP), or the turret (3EP)
Conclusion. Use LBB:2 for PC scale ships
HG80 by introducing EPs created more problems for itself - note HG79 just stuck with pp 1->6
I wonder what would happen if EPs were just removed from HG80, use maneuver drive rating as the defensive DM (agility in old money)...
Now rate it in HG80...
2EP available -- can't power the turret (3EP)
or to reduce to absurdity - take the scout and fir the triple turret, and install a model 6 coomputer by removing the air/raft and cargo.
Now rate it in HG80...
2EP availabe -- can't power the computer 6 (5EP), or the turret (3EP)
Conclusion. Use LBB:2 for PC scale ships
HG80 by introducing EPs created more problems for itself - note HG79 just stuck with pp 1->6
I wonder what would happen if EPs were just removed from HG80, use maneuver drive rating as the defensive DM (agility in old money)...
Badenov
SOC-12
None of that matters in HG80 because 12 armor makes you immune (mostly immune, you can still take weapon-1 hits, but why bother packing weapons when nothing can touch you and it uses EP? Presuming you're large enough to avoid the autocrits due to hull size, but that's 300T for rating 9 weapons, and the Merc Cruiser pasted above had nothing larger than 4) to any weapon other than mesons, nukes, and spinals, none of which pirates should have. And a Rating 3+ Meson screen will make you immune to non-spinal mesons, so then you're only vulnerable to nukes and spinals.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
The choices and trade-offs would disappear and we could have everything and the kitchen sink in our warships.
Boring.
Example:
Code:
FM-A146692-F79900-55009-0 MCr 1 269 1 800 Dton
bearing 1 11 1 Crew=37
batteries 1 11 1 TL=15
Troops=20 Low=38 Cargo=108 Fuel=780 EP=108 Agility=6
Spoiler:
And dirt cheap.
Bah, humbug!
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AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
Scouts don't generally have Armour 12 or Meson Screens.
If you have a warship you are presumably fighting warships, and they will presumably be using nukes.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
Perfectly legal to build using LBB2.
We only need to rate it using LBB5 for LBB5 combat, so Agility-0.
No problem.
Badenov
SOC-12
Well, that's a huge oversight, I think.
Why not take the armor and ignore bad guys? Particularly at TL14+, where the armor weighs half. And then you can ignore the pirates. Even a 100-tonner with armor 12 can ignore the Merc Cruiser, none of its weapons are high enough to draw an autocrit. 13% of your tonnage (for 12 armor at TL14+) is certainly worth that benefit? What can you carry in 13 tons that's worth more than your whole ship?
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
It costs a lot, it kills your profitability.
Take the 199 Dt ship from above:
Code:
AL-1611111-000000-00000-0 MCr 33,3 199 Dton
bearing Crew=1
batteries TL=12
Cargo=123 Fuel=29,9 EP=1,99 Agility=1
Spoiler:
Code:
Estimated Economy of Ship Standard
Ship price Down Payment Mortgage Avg Filled
MCr 33,33 kCr 6 666 kCr 139 80%
Expenses per jump Revenue
Bank Cr 66 662 High Cr 0
Fuel Cr 2 990 Middle Cr 0
Life Support Cr 2 000 Low Cr 0
Salaries Cr 2 400 Cargo Cr 96 000
Maintenance Cr 1 333
Berthing Cr 199
Summa kCr 76 kCr 96
Income potential per jump kCr 20
Yearly yield on down payment 7,7%Add Armour 12:
Code:
AL-1611111-C00000-00000-0 MCr 95,4 199 Dton
bearing Crew=1
batteries TL=12
Cargo=71 Fuel=29,9 EP=1,99 Agility=1
Spoiler:
Code:
Estimated Economy of Ship Standard
Ship price Down Payment Mortgage Avg Filled
MCr 95,42 kCr 19 084 kCr 398 80%
Expenses per jump Revenue
Bank Cr 190 838 High Cr 0
Fuel Cr 2 990 Middle Cr 0
Life Support Cr 2 000 Low Cr 0
Salaries Cr 2 400 Cargo Cr 56 000
Maintenance Cr 3 817
Berthing Cr 199
Summa kCr 202 kCr 56
Income potential per jump kCr -146
Yearly yield on down payment -19,2%Note that you need Armour 14 to be safe from pulse lasers.
ACS generally operate off the major trade routes, where high-tech shipyards are rare.
High-tech ships are a logistical problem.
How often are you attacked?
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AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
OK, ignore the practical problems and make it TL-15:
Still completely unaffordable for a small trader...
Code:
AL-1611111-E00000-00000-0 MCr 73,9 199 Dton
bearing Crew=1
batteries TL=15
Cargo=96 Fuel=29,9 EP=1,99 Agility=1
Spoiler:
Code:
Estimated Economy of Ship Standard
Ship price Down Payment Mortgage Avg Filled
MCr 73,93 kCr 14 785 kCr 308 80%
Expenses per jump Revenue
Bank Cr 147 854 High Cr 0
Fuel Cr 2 990 Middle Cr 0
Life Support Cr 2 000 Low Cr 0
Salaries Cr 2 400 Cargo Cr 76 000
Maintenance Cr 2 957
Berthing Cr 199
Summa kCr 158 kCr 76
Income potential per jump kCr -82
Yearly yield on down payment -13,9%Still completely unaffordable for a small trader...
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Now try it at something other than TL15, and without Z drives. Make it a 30,000t light cruiser.
Try building a TL 13 jump 4 60,000t cruiser with everything maxed.
At the lower TLs there are still trade offs to be made for warships. Even at TL15 a true warship 15kt and above will require trade offs.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
How do you power a triple laser turret with 2EPs?
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
Since we are building it under LBB2 rules, we don't have to worry about that.
Don't ask, don't tell...
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
OK.
Why would I want something so deliberately inefficient?
We all know riders beat ships silly:
Code:
BR-K3066G3-D43307-448L8-0 MCr 17 137 18 000 Dton
bearing L 1 LL111 Crew=252
batteries L 1 LL111 TL=13
Cargo=348 Fuel=1080 EP=1080 Agility=6
Spoiler:
Did I mention cheap?
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
| Tech Level | bridge | jump drive(Jn.) | man. drive 6 | power plant 6 | armour | fuel | Total |
| 9 | 2 | 2{1} | 17 | 18 | 40 | 16 | 95 |
| 10 | 2 | 2(1) | 17 | 18 | 33 | 16 | 88 |
| 11 | 2 | 3(2) | 17 | 18 | 36 | 26 | 102 |
| 12 | 2 | 4(3) | 17 | 18 | 26 | 36 | 101 |
| 13 | 2 | 5(4) | 17 | 12 | 28 | 46 | 110 |
| 14 | 2 | 5(4) | 17 | 12 | 15 | 46 | 95 |
| 15 | 2 | 5(4) | 17 | 6 | 16 | 46 | 90 |
Before weapons, screens and crew etc.
So there still have to be trade offs for warships. And of course battleriders trade off jump mobility...
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I am going to go out on a limb here [I hate the idea, but as has been pointed out to me, this IS how LBB2 works] ...
- The LBB2 PP output is only needed for the MD during the "Movement Phase" of combat (when the Movement Software is loaded so Movement CAN take place) ... right.
- During the "Return Fire" Phase of Combat, completely different software is loaded so the ship is not even capable of movement, therefore the EP are all available for the Weapons.
