OTU Only: Gypsy Queen Class Fast Merchant, LBB2, 199Td, J26GP7

[Badenov]

It costs a lot, it kills your profitability.

Take the 199 Dt ship from above:

AL-1611111-000000-00000-0       MCr 33,3         199 Dton

[/QUOTE]
<snipped for space>
[QUOTE="AnotherDilbert, post: 677692, member: 8421"]
                                                              

Summa              kCr     202                         kCr     56
                                                              
     Income potential per jump     kCr -146                 
  Yearly yield on down payment     -19,2%

Triple the cost, half the revenue, massive losses every jump.

Now this is a legit limitation. Armor in MgT1 isn't nearly so big a deal. In CT, half a small ship's cost might be armor. So if armor kills profitability, you can be alive and in debt or making money on your way to an early grave. I'm not sure this is a winnable scenario? Is there no scenario in which an armored ship can break even? I imagine you can bill yourself as a secure courrier and charge a premium.


The only other way to avoid hits is Agility 6, and a giant computer, which is certainly not cheaper than armor even if it takes less space.

Note that you need Armour 14 to be safe from pulse lasers.

Yes, true. But you only take the fuel hit of a 3 on 2d6 on the surface explosion table with 12 armor, and the chance of that coming up enough to drain your fuel as you kite the attacker either to your jump-out location or back to the planet where the local Navy can thump them isn't huge.

ACS generally operate off the major trade routes, where high-tech shipyards are rare.
High-tech ships are a logistical problem.

True

How often are you attacked?

Once is too often, if you're going to die when you lose.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I am going to go out on a limb here [I hate the idea, but as has been pointed out to me, this IS how LBB2 works] ...

• The LBB2 PP output is only needed for the MD during the "Movement Phase" of combat (when the Movement Software is loaded so Movement CAN take place) ... right.
• During the "Return Fire" Phase of Combat, completely different software is loaded so the ship is not even capable of movement, therefore the EP are all available for the Weapons.

If the EP are not available, then the CPU slots should not be available, either. The Phases are either consecutive or concurrent, but the software cannot be run in consecutive phases while controlling equipment that needs continuous power and control.

That is how LBB2 computers work, not power.
LBB2 has no concept or power allocation.
An LBB2 Free Trader with what LBB5 would call a 2 EP power plant can easily power two triple laser turrets (6 EP) and the M-drive (2 EP) at the same time.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Now this is a legit limitation. Armor in MgT1 isn't nearly so big a deal. In CT, half a small ship's cost might be armor. So if armor kills profitability, you can be alive and in debt or making money on your way to an early grave. I'm not sure this is a winnable scenario? Is there no scenario in which an armored ship can break even? I imagine you can bill yourself as a secure courrier and charge a premium.

In the same way that BRs are more efficient than BBs, traders and escorts are more efficient than armed and armoured traders. Even more efficient is to find and "neutralise" the pirates, before they become a noticeable problem...

Yes, true. But you only take the fuel hit of a 3 on 2d6 on the surface explosion table with 12 armor, and the chance of that coming up enough to drain your fuel as you kite the attacker either to your jump-out location or back to the planet where the local Navy can thump them isn't huge.

For a small ship one fuel hit is enough to prevent jump (outbound), or kill all power (inbound). Even a small pirate can have many pulse lasers...

Once is too often, if you're going to die when you lose.

Killing people is bad for business, it will just draw attention from the authorities.
The Imperium is essentially a trade league, anything that hinders trade significantly will be dealt with.

Just capture the ship, and sell it (easiest back to the insurance company). The people can be ransomed, so are an asset to be monetised.

For the 3I setting to work as described, piracy exists, but is not that big of a problem. Most ships will never see a pirate, or the vague economical model doesn't work.

 

[Badenov]

In the same way that BRs are more efficient than BBs, traders and escorts are more efficient than armed and armoured traders. Even more efficient is to find and "neutralise" the pirates, before they become a noticeable problem...

This. ^ Ostensibly the job of the Navy, of course.

For a small ship one fuel hit is enough to prevent jump (outbound), or kill all power (inbound). Even a small pirate can have many pulse lasers...

Well, a 100-ton Jump 1 ship has 10 tons of jump fuel plus whatever in the PP. Min fuel hit is 10 tons, so the first 3 on 2d6 gets your jump fuel, if you're that small. On the inbound leg, I can see it being a problem. But I see Piracy as mainly an outbound leg problem. Intercepting someone in 3d space is hard enough when you know where they're coming from, ie the Planet, but when jumping in, they could be halfway to the planet by the time you can intercept them, and that's far too close to any defenders when the alarms go up. If alarms go up and the police are 5 hours away and you're 20 min from jumpout, that's fine.

Killing people is bad for business, it will just draw attention from the authorities.
The Imperium is essentially a trade league, anything that hinders trade significantly will be dealt with.

Just capture the ship, and sell it (easiest back to the insurance company). The people can be ransomed, so are an asset to be monetised.

Which doesn't work for you, if it's your ship. You're basically out of the game, with a debt of the unpaid mortgage plus however much you were ransomed for and no way to pay it off other than being a wage slave for the rest of your life. Your life is basically over at this point as there's no way to pay off the mortgage (unless there's some form of piracy insurance). It might even be advantageous to sabotage your own ship, so pirates can't take it away. Paying for a tow truck beats paying for a space ship.

For the 3I setting to work as described, piracy exists, but is not that big of a problem. Most ships will never see a pirate, or the vague economical model doesn't work.

Is piracy not a capital crime in 3I? The only way I can see piracy working at all is for agents at the spaceport to report who's launching when and where they're going, and knowing which ships are easy pickings. The above-mentioned Mercenary cruiser, with no armor, is vulnerable to the same damage that everyone else is, and with Agility 1, isn't a very difficult target. Even with a couple fuel hits, at 278 tons of fuel, a couple 10% hits won't stop it from jumping out if it's only got to go Jump 1 or 2. I assume a pirate always has a Jump <Less than max rating> destination programmed in in case he needs to GTFO.

 

[Spinward Flow]

How to win friends and influence people, eh?

Hey, I'm the one expending the effort needed to be Intellectually Honest™ here ... which people seem to find "annoying" for some reason (can't imagine why).

The fact that you can determine the formulae underpinning the tables in LBB2, and sensibly extrapolate useful things from them, doesn't change that the written rules don't work that way.

As a mildly famous admiral once said (in a stressful combat situation): "You have to learn WHY things work on a starship."

RAW Fundamentalists do not ask HOW or WHY ... they just BLINDLY ACCEPT and brook no attempts at deeper understandings of the meaning behind things (for that path leads to Heresy Against The Holy RAW! ).

I think they should

If you go to the effort of reverse engineering the patterns and concepts that produced the RAW ... you can.
The "problem" with doing that is that you'll uncover errors, errata and inconsistencies (like I have) which will offend the RAW Fundamentalists who want to keep everything "locked down" (forever and ever, amen) the way that THEY "know" it should be.

So long as you "color within the lines" the RAW Fundamentalists won't (can't) object to what you do.
As soon as you start "drawing your own lines" ... even if those lines are consistent with what RAW provides ... you get branded a Heretic to the Most Holy RAW™ and the excommunication begins. This pattern KEEPS HAPPENING on these forums, to the point where it is now entirely predictable and repeatable (as demonstrated, again, in this thread).

 

[kilemall]

Yes, powered weapons, a combat worthy computer, or anything at all that uses power will reduce the power available to the M-drive.

Agility-6 requires the full output of a PP-6.

B5 has the option to drop powering everything but the maneuver drive so one can get full agility. Won’t help with powered computers.

My simple house rule fix has minicapacitors built into the turret and laser weapons so they can be charged ahead of time freeing full agility and covers the B2 mechanic of no power allocation yet limited fire capacity of small craft.

Another house rule that might work is the double fire mechanic but applied to using the power plant to fire once and power everything else. Roll and if fail the power plant drops 1 value.

 

[Condottiere]

The energy based weapon systems likely do need capacitors.

If it's not to be utilized immediately, you can probably shunt power off to batteries.

 

[kilemall]

The energy based weapon systems likely do need capacitors.

If it's not to be utilized immediately, you can probably shunt power off to batteries.

Batteries are not defined as a separate thing in B5, that’s more Striker. The energy density of the capacitors coupled with TL9 makes them a happy tech to use.

I have limits on the capacitors, the closer to full the more they overheat/expand and may blow over time. That’s partially modeling my version of what they are and why overloading destroys the ship (metallic hydrogen), partially player choice and managing risk/creating drama.

 

[Spinward Flow]

... why can't a Drive code of 6 (integer) = 6.000-6.999 (floating point) ...?

Because LBB2 explicitly says so:

LBB2'81, p13:
Drive ratings greater than six are not available from the equipment shown here.

In the context of the LBB2.81, p22 Drive Performance Table ... 7+ is greater than 6 and resolves to being a dash (-) on the table. Likewise, values between 0 and 1 resolve to being a dash (-) on the table. This is exceptionally obvious if you understand how the table was "built" to provide the information that it does (meaning: you understand the formulas behind its creation and intended uses).

Here, I'll even pull back the curtain a little bit to show you how it works (I know, I know ... Heresy Against The Sacred Holy RAW ... blah blah blah).

The Drive TL at the top is included for convenience (and honestly, should have been there in LBB2 rather than shunted off into LBB3).
Take the Drive Tons (for code: 1) line and divide by the Hull Tons column to produce a floating point "yield" value.
Take the floating point "yield" value and then drop fractions to resolve down to an integer (in bold on the second line in each table cell).

Note that the ONLY DIFFERENCE between the table published in LBB2.81 and the one I've provided here is ... that I show my work.

ALL of the results are the SAME ... but I've provided the tools needed to access the "floating point information" that is "hidden behind the curtain" of the LBB2 table which can then be used in a broader, more formulaic way to "move beyond the exclusivity of the table" in ways that permit interpolation (and thus, a broader range of possibilities than what the mere TABLE format makes possible/available).

The fact that everything LINES UP PERFECTLY is (to use a turn of phrase) NOT A COINCIDENCE.
If anything, it shows that the LBB2 "format" of presentation is a classic case of Premature Optimization™.

I'm going to need to post the comparison in another post because of the 10,000 character limit being consumed so vigorously the table formatting requirements when posting in this forum

 

[Spinward Flow]

Drive TL​

9​

9​

9​

9​

A​

A​

A​

A​

B​

B​

C​

C​

C​

D​

D​

E​

E​

E​

E​

F​

Drive Tons​

200​

400​

600​

800​

1000​

1200​

1400​

1600​

1800​

2000​

2200​

2400​

2600​

2800​

3000​

3200​

3400​

3600​

3800​

4000​

Hull Tons​

A​

B​

C​

D​

E​

F​

G​

H​

J​

K​

L​

M​

N​

P​

Q​

R​

S​

T​

U​

V​

100​

2 2​

4 4​

6 6​

8 -​

10 -​

12 -​

14 -​

16 -​

18 -​

20 -​

22 -​

24 -​

26 -​

28 -​

30 -​

32 -​

34 -​

36 -​

38 -​

40 -​

200​

1 1​

2 2​

3 3​

4 4​

5 5​

6 6​

7 -​

8 -​

9 -​

10 -​

11 -​

12 -​

13 -​

14 -​

15 -​

16 -​

17 -​

18 -​

19 -​

20 -​

400​

0.5 -​

1.0 1​

1.5 1​

2.0 2​

2.5 2​

3.0 3​

3.5 3​

4.0 4​

4.5 4​

5.0 5​

5.5 5​

6.0 6​

6.5 6​

7.0 -​

7.5 -​

8.0 -​

8.5 -​

9.0 -​

9.5 -​

10 -​

600​

0.33 -​

0.67 -​

1.0 1​

1.33 1​

1.67 1​

2.0 2​

2.33 2​

2.66 2​

3.0 3​

3.33 3​

3.67 3​

4.0 4​

4.33 4​

4.66 4​

5.0 5​

5.33 5​

5.67 5​

6.0 6​

6.33 6​

6.67 6​

800​

0.25 -​

0.5 -​

0.75 -​

1.0 1​

1.25 1​

1.5 1​

1.75 1​

2.0 2​

2.25 2​

2.5 2​

2.75 2​

3.0 3​

3.25 3​

3.5 3​

3.75 3​

4.0 4​

4.25 4​

4.5 4​

4.75 4​

5.0 5​

1000​

0.2 -​

0.4 -​

0.6 -​

0.8 -​

1.0 1​

1.2 1​

1.4 1​

1.6 1​

1.8 1​

2.0 2​

2.2 2​

2.4 2​

2.6 2​

2.8 2​

3.0 3​

3.2 3​

3.4 3​

3.6 3​

3.8 3​

4.0 4​

 

[Spinward Flow]

How do you power a triple laser turret with 2EPs?

Blind Faith in the Most Holy RAW™ is all you need ... apparently ...

Intellectual Honesty™ need not apply when one is faithful to the sacred scriptures of the Most Holy RAW™ ...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

B5 has the option to drop powering everything but the maneuver drive so one can get full agility. Won’t help with powered computers.

Computers are just ignored for Emergency Agility.

My simple house rule fix has minicapacitors built into the turret and laser weapons so they can be charged ahead of time freeing full agility and covers the B2 mechanic of no power allocation yet limited fire capacity of small craft.

Big "minicapacitors"... A triple laser turret consumes 3 EP = 750 MW for 20 min = 900 GJ per turn.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

In the context of the LBB2.81, p22 Drive Performance Table ... 7+ is greater than 6 and resolves to being a dash (-) on the table. Likewise, values between 0 and 1 resolve to being a dash (-) on the table. This is exceptionally obvious if you understand how the table was "built" to provide the information that it does (meaning: you understand the formulas behind its creation and intended uses).

There is no drive potential greater than 6 and they are all integers in LBB2.

Here, I'll even pull back the curtain a little bit to show you how it works (I know, I know ... Heresy Against The Sacred Holy RAW ... blah blah blah).

There is nothing holy about it, it's just that everything else isn't RAW, but house rules.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Intellectual Honesty™ need not apply when one is faithful to the sacred scriptures of the Most Holy RAW™ ...

It's not intellectually honest to pretend that your house rules are RAW.

 

[kilemall]

Computers are just ignored for Emergency Agility.



Big "minicapacitors"... A triple laser turret consumes 3 EP = 750 MW for 20 min = 900 GJ per turn.

I read it as 250 MW x 1000 seconds cause B2 maneuver. 250 gigawatt-seconds. Since the capacitors take hits like that and store them or use drives and weapons to discharge, I figure they are good for the full 1000 seconds.

I do 1/10th of the full capacitor, 3.6 EPs, 1.4 cubic meters which can be stuck in the fire control/turret dton. 3 shots in whatever combo.

 

[Spinward Flow]

There is nothing holy about it, it's just that everything else isn't RAW, but house rules.

It's not intellectually honest to pretend that your house rules are RAW.

I do the math.
You do the blanket denials.
It's so (monotonously) predictable, at this point.

It's almost (but not quite) like how the value of Pi (π) varies depending on who you are (and what you do), but the analogy is all too apt.
There's the Intellectually Honest™ answers about what Pi (π) is ... and then there's all the others ...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I read it as 250 MW x 1000 seconds cause B2 maneuver. 250 gigawatt-seconds. Since the capacitors take hits like that and store them or use drives and weapons to discharge, I figure they are good for the full 1000 seconds.

Three lasers would be 750 MW for a total of 750 GJ?

I do 1/10th of the full capacitor, 3.6 EPs, 1.4 cubic meters which can be stuck in the fire control/turret dton. 3 shots in whatever combo.

Sure.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I do the math.
You do the blanket denials.

You maths is your house rule, that you pretend isn't a house rule.
My "blanket denial" is simply pointing that out.

It's so (monotonously) predictable, at this point.

Yes, it's rather wearisome.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I do the math.

OK, lets look at the maths of your house rule:

Z is the 24th lettered drive, so it must have 24 × 200 = 4800 PotentialTonne performance, right?
In a 5000 Dt hull it would produce 4800 / 5000 = 0.96 rounded to potential 0.
RAW, the Drive Potential Table, says potential 2.

C is the 3rd drive, so it must have 3 × 200 = 600 PotentialTonne performance.
In a 150 Dt hull it would produce 600 / 150 = potential 4.
RAW, the Drive Potential Table, says potential 3.

V is the 20th drive, so it must have 20 × 200 = 4000 PotentialTonne performance.
In a 600 Dt hull it would produce 4000 / 600 = potential 6⅔ and 40 EP.
RAW, the Drive Potential Table, says potential 6 and 36 EP.

J is the 9th drive, so it must have 9 × 200 = 1800 PotentialTonne performance.
In a 2000 Dt hull it would produce 1800 / 2000 = 0.9 rounded to potential 0.
RAW, the Drive Potential Table, says potential 1.


These four examples illustrates four situations where your house rule differs from RAW, and they are all from this thread.
You do whatever you want, but that is your house rule, not RAW.

 

[Spinward Flow]

OK, lets look at the maths of your house rule:

Spoiler Alert: MASSIVE CHERRY PICKING incoming

Z is the 24th lettered drive, so it must have 24 × 200 = 4800 PotentialTonne performance, right?
In a 5000 Dt hull it would produce 4800 / 5000 = 0.96 rounded to potential 0.
RAW, the Drive Potential Table, says potential 2.

The ENTIRE RIGHT HAND SIDE OF THE TABLE "breaks the pattern of the left hand side of the table" in order to produce the values entered on the table in RAW LBB2.81, p22. The "magical Drive-Z" phenomenon is widely known and obvious to everyone on these forums, because the TL=15 drives "cheat the rules/pattern" that were established for all of the other tech levels and letter drives.

C is the 3rd drive, so it must have 3 × 200 = 600 PotentialTonne performance.
In a 150 Dt hull it would produce 600 / 150 = potential 4.
RAW, the Drive Potential Table, says potential 3.

Show me the 150 ton line entry on the LBB2.81, p22 table.

I'll save you the trouble of answering my rhetorical point.
IT DOESN'T EXIST ... because LBB2 (as written) simply "defaulted to the next row down the table" for all intermediate tonnages between table rows, penalizing them unnecessarily.

To answer your question more fulsomely, despite the obviously biased framing of your question ... it's the 200 ton row that reports code: 3 for a Drive-C ... not the 150 ton row.
Thank you for playing.

V is the 20th drive, so it must have 20 × 200 = 4000 PotentialTonne performance.
In a 600 Dt hull it would produce 4000 / 600 = potential 6⅔ and 40 EP.
RAW, the Drive Potential Table, says potential 6 and 36 EP.

LBB2 doesn't concern itself with EP at all, so your point is invalid on its own biased claim to merit using your own framing of criteria.

A power plant that is (exactly, integer) code: 1.000 @ 4000 tons generates 40 EP.
If you want to fight me on that point ... go right ahead.

You say ... code: 1 @ 4000 tons = 40 EP.
I say ... 40 EP = code: 1 @ 4000 tons ... and code: 2 @ 2000 tons ... and code: 4 @ 1000 tons ... and there are interpolations that matter at intermediate tonnages as well (because I can do math and these equivalencies are EASY to compute, because LBB2 drives).

An intellectually honest interpretation of how EPs "work" necessarily dictates that a power plant that generates 40 EPs in a 4000 ton hull will ALSO generate 40 EPs when installed into ANY SIZE OF HULL if the LBB2 power plant (insert drive letter here) remains unchanged.
If you want to fight me on that point ... go right ahead.

J is the 9th drive, so it must have 9 × 200 = 1800 PotentialTonne performance.
In a 2000 Dt hull it would produce 1800 / 2000 = 0.9 rounded to potential 0.
RAW, the Drive Potential Table, says potential 1.

It's called a TYPO ... also known as an errata (of which there are plenty in LBB2.81, besides this one).
Also known as a mistake.

Yes, yes ... I know. No one made any mistakes in the publication of LBB2.81 RAW ...

These four examples illustrates four situations where your house rule differs from RAW, and they are all from this thread.
You do whatever you want, but that is your house rule, not RAW.

And the Most Holy RAW™ must never be questioned, examined nor found wanting in any way!