HG2 Black Globe and jump drive capacitors

[snrdg082102]

Hello BytePro,

Jump drives have cap requirements. Those requirements provide for exceeding the EP output of the PP. But, the max discharge rate of said caps per turn is equal to the PP rated EP output.

While it takes a while to prep for a Jump, the Jump 'transition' occurs within a turn, not over the several turns it would take to discharge the full EP the caps could hold.

In other words, they can store more EP than the JD needs, but they cannot discharge fast enough to support the jump drive if they were smaller in volume.

This is all direct from the math in the rules - no extra rationalizations needed.

[Note also that caps can be used for more than just storing power. For a JD their role could also be as a charge pump. Meaning cap requirements are not based on EP - which they, in fact, are not in the rules. ]

I'll agree that during the design section dealing with jump drives the capacitors aren't discussed. However, at least to me, HG page 31 indicates capacitors are related to EP:

All energy, whatever its form, that contacts the black globe is absorbed and diverted to the ship's capacitors, doing no damage

One ton of capacitors (in a jump drive or not) will hold 36 EPs

While page 39 has a formula that calculates the EPs needed to make a break off jump.

Have an electronics background I automatically thought jump capacitors store energy.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello atpollard and rancke,

When dealing with rules that may or may not have a real world counterpart blinders are called suspension or modification of belief. As you have all seen I have a tendency try and fit the real world into the game world. The use result is you and others gently but firmly tell me to go with the flow of things. Unless of course I push to hard and then the sludge hammers come out to get my attention.

Thanks to all who have helped me with Traveller over the years.

 

[Carlobrand]

The reason for the extra large capacitors is that once you have the 2 turns of power plant output warming up the capacitors you then dump the output of the massive fusion burst the jump drive produces - hence the need for all that fuel for the jump drive. The capacitors have to store and then direct that massive burst of energy as it comes flooding through.

Think of the power plant charging the capacitors as the sort of pre-heating step...

So ... the capacitors store power, then feed it quickly to the jump drive, which uses the energy to start its high-speed hydrogen-burning energy production trick, then feeds the result of that to the capacitors, which presumably feeds it to the grid for jump. Only problem with that scenario is that it creates a situation in which you can do without the jump drives - or at least the part doing the high speed burn, and therefore the fuel used for the burn - if you can get the capacitors filled full, which the black globe is certainly capable of doing, and which even the power plant should be able to do given sufficient time, the way they're handling the capacitors.

That was always the problem with the concept of jump drives as uber-power-plants. If you found another way to generate the power, you had yourself a jump drive that didn't need masses of hydrogen fuel. Project Logi: a black-globe-equipped ship designed to jump by having a second ship pump power into the black globe, dependent on the external power but very efficient for space.

...[Annic Nova uses caps charged from solar energy, IIRC, if these have a different discharge/accumulation rate this explains how this would work.]

Annic Nova's a rulebreaker - or maybe its logic was consistent with the earliest version of Traveller ship design rules. I understand that what I know as Book-2 is actually a revision of an earlier version, and I don't have details on that earlier version. In any event, it's a ship that jumps without jump fuel, storing solar power and then using that to power a jump - which leads us back to that idea about being able to power the jump by filling the capacitors full. Compared to Book 2 and High Guard ships, Annic Nova is revolutionary - it doesn't need massive amounts of hydrogen to manage a jump.

 

[mike wightman]

So ... the capacitors store power, then feed it quickly to the jump drive, which uses the energy to start its high-speed hydrogen-burning energy production trick, then feeds the result of that to the capacitors, which presumably feeds it to the grid for jump.

That's not the way I hand wave it.

Using Marc's Jump article as my guide I picture it more like the jump capacitor is fed by the power plant initially and then receives a massive burst of energy from the jump drive reactor. The capacitor then discharges this energy into the jump coils which initiates the jump.

 

[snrdg082102]

Howdy Mike Wightman,

That's not the way I hand wave it.

Using Marc's Jump article as my guide I picture it more like the jump capacitor is fed by the power plant initially and then receives a massive burst of energy from the jump drive reactor. The capacitor then discharges this energy into the jump coils which initiates the jump.

Are you refering to the article in JTAS 24?

 

[McPerth]

That was always the problem with the concept of jump drives as uber-power-plants. If you found another way to generate the power, you had yourself a jump drive that didn't need masses of hydrogen fuel. Project Logi: a black-globe-equipped ship designed to jump by having a second ship pump power into the black globe, dependent on the external power but very efficient for space.

Why to use another ship?

If you are making a shceduled run among hi tech planets (with at least medium pop, I guess) the deep meson sites might well fit that role, while using it to donn their targeting skills...

You'd kill two birds with a stone, making your ships jump without fuel (and so carring more cargo/freight, or, more likely military supplies/troops) and helping train your fixed defenses.

(why do I see this whole concept flawed :devil:?)

 

[mike wightman]

Howdy Mike Wightman,



Are you refering to the article in JTAS 24?

Hi Tom,
yup, that article.

 

[mike wightman]

(why do I see this whole concept flawed :devil:?)

Because it is

We can't really discuss what happens because we don't know anymore than a couple of contradictory articles and rules.

Is the energy stored in the jump drive capacitors electrical energy or is it some handwavium jump potential energy?

Are the Annic Nova's solar accumulators collecting em radiation or exotic particles to convert into jump potential energy?

One person's handwavium is always going to be different to another person's.

I'm happy with my explanations for MTU, but there is no canonical definition of what the EPs are used for in the OTU - just those rules from an abstract combat system

 

[mike wightman]

That said - remember that in the OTU the black globe is really higher than Imperial tech (possibly the second worst hand wave to explain the use or absence of advanced technology in the OTU).

In some weird higher than Imperial technological society why not have a black globe powered jump drive fead their energy from system based energy projectors/weapons?

Anti-matter powered sentient ships with energy absorbing fields powering their jump drives - now we are getting into science fiction settings

 

[BytePro]

HG has a number of rules related to Jumping and EP.

In the Combat section..

Jumping: A ship which breaks off by jumping must have a destination and enough fuel to get there. It must expend energy points equal to two turns output from a power plant whose number is equal to the jump being attempted (EP required =0.01MJn). If it can do this in two turns, it jumps at the end of two turns. If it can do this in one turn or less, it jumps at the end of one turn (in the pursuit step). A ship which cannot summon the required energy in two turns may not jump at all. ....

In the Black Globe section of combat...

If a ship absorbs enough energy to make a jump, and is supplied with sufficient fuel, it may jump at the end of the turn.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hi Tom,
yup, that article.

Thanks Mike, good thing I have slightly out of date copies of BITS "The Traveller Bibliography" and "The Periodical Biblography" orthwise I would have asked for the source and not confirming the source.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello all,

With the references to the Jump Space article in JTAS 24 and the Annic Nova adventure I've read through both. This is my third attempt at trying to post my comments about them.

Jump Space first since, if I get it right, the article appears to explain why the Annic Nova doesn't use fuel.

Per Jump Space there are several basic components needed for a jump drive to operate listing them in the order found on JTAS 24 pages 35-36:

A. Power source: A jump uses large amounts of energy to open a passage between normal and jump space. The standard Traveller Fusion power plant is best a supplying the energy demand. Alternate methods are Solar power generators which take longer to accumulate the required energy, and anti-matter power systems which are rare, very high tech, and expensive.

B. Energy Storage nodes are usually capacitors or large fast-discharge batteries that hold the generated power until the instant a jump is made.

C. The ship's hull is constructed to withstand the rigors encountered in both normal and jump space. Additionally, the hull contains the network of wiring that maintains the jump field around the ship.

D. A computer is needed to control the precise power requirements and the needed high level of accuracy needed in the calculations for a jump.

E. Lanthanum Jump coils channel the ship's energy and control the jump energy being sent to the jump network of wiring on the hull.

A jump follows a process which is described in JTAS 24 on pages 36-37.

1. During the transit of the ship to the jump point past the 100 D limit calculations for the jump are being refined.

2. The decision to jump is made and the required amount of fuel is fed into the power plant generating the necessary energy for the jump which charges the jump drive capacitors to the required energy capacity.

3. The computer feeds the energy to appropriate jump drive coil sections beginning the jump. The jump duration is fixed based on the specific jump space entered, drive input energy, and other factors.

In one of the posts it was mentioned that the jump drive might be a specialized fusion power plant. From my reading I don't think the jump drive is a fusion power plant, unfortunately I haven't a guess on what type of device it is.

In the Annic Nova adventure page 17 a retractable canopy collects radiated stellar power and stores the energy in accumulators. The accumulators stores 60 days of energy under ordinary loads which includes power to operate each jump drive once and maintain life support at normal conditions. Recharging the accumulators takes 1 to 6 weeks depending on the distance and spectral type of the star serving as the radiation source.

The operation of the Annic Nova uses the accumulators instead of a fusion power plant to provide energy for the jump drives and internal power. The 5 weeks spent near Kinorb appears to have been the time needed to accumulate enough power to make the jump out of the system.

My idea on the working of the jump drive, holes and all, is a power source provides energy to the charge the capacitors to the energy level needed to open a hole in to jump. The ship's computer calculates correct time, spot, and precise energy level the capacitors discharges into the appropriate number and locations of jump drive coils. The jump drive coils distribute the energy to the jump drive hull network of wiring. Jump space opens and then closes behind the ship. At the jump re-entry point the coils and network wiring have enough energy left to open a hole dropping the ship into normal space. Alternately, approaching a 100 D limit also drops a ship from jump space to normal space.

Hopefully I've made some sense on operating a jump drive. Once again thanks to all of you for posting replies.

 

[Carlobrand]

That's not the way I hand wave it.

Using Marc's Jump article as my guide I picture it more like the jump capacitor is fed by the power plant initially and then receives a massive burst of energy from the jump drive reactor. The capacitor then discharges this energy into the jump coils which initiates the jump.

That wouldn't be my handwave either - creates complications. Errata says the capacitors cannot be used to power the ship. Original rules on jump drive capacitors said the same. My rule was that the capacitors aren't storing electrical power; they're converting electrical power into another form of energy, then dumping THAT energy into the jump coils.

I'm still wrestling with a likely candidate for the energy form. Has to be something that can be readily manipulated by a TL 9 society. One option is a chemical that alters in the presence of a magnetic field, storing energy as a chemical change and then delivering a massive photon pulse into the jump coils when triggered. Another option is the magnetic field itself: the jump reactor feeding the capacitor a massive burst of electrical energy that the capacitor converts into a brief massive magnetic field that interacts with lanthanum-based superconducting coils to trigger the jump field, with the initial power plant energy prior to jump being used to prime the capacitor and establish a counterfield around the capacitor that shields the rest of the ship from the magnetic burst. Unfortunately, that doesn't explain how a black globe could store energy there and yield a destructive event if they were overfilled. I suspect someone more versed in physics could contrive a more believable bit of hoakum.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hope my theory holds up.

That wouldn't be my handwave either - creates complications. Errata says the capacitors cannot be used to power the ship. Original rules on jump drive capacitors said the same. My rule was that the capacitors aren't storing electrical power; they're converting electrical power into another form of energy, then dumping THAT energy into the jump coils.

I'm still wrestling with a likely candidate for the energy form. Has to be something that can be readily manipulated by a TL 9 society. One option is a chemical that alters in the presence of a magnetic field, storing energy as a chemical change and then delivering a massive photon pulse into the jump coils when triggered. Another option is the magnetic field itself: the jump reactor feeding the capacitor a massive burst of electrical energy that the capacitor converts into a brief massive magnetic field that interacts with lanthanum-based superconducting coils to trigger the jump field, with the initial power plant energy prior to jump being used to prime the capacitor and establish a counterfield around the capacitor that shields the rest of the ship from the magnetic burst. Unfortunately, that doesn't explain how a black globe could store energy there and yield a destructive event if they were overfilled. I suspect someone more versed in physics could contrive a more believable bit of hoakum.

 

[mike wightman]

My rule was that the capacitors aren't storing electrical power; they're converting electrical power into another form of energy, then dumping THAT energy into the jump coils.

Yup I agree with that.

I have started using the term jump potential energy to describe the energy stored in the jump capacitor.

I'm still wrestling with a likely candidate for the energy form. Has to be something that can be readily manipulated by a TL 9 society. One option is a chemical that alters in the presence of a magnetic field, storing energy as a chemical change and then delivering a massive photon pulse into the jump coils when triggered. Another option is the magnetic field itself: the jump reactor feeding the capacitor a massive burst of electrical energy that the capacitor converts into a brief massive magnetic field that interacts with lanthanum-based superconducting coils to trigger the jump field, with the initial power plant energy prior to jump being used to prime the capacitor and establish a counterfield around the capacitor that shields the rest of the ship from the magnetic burst. Unfortunately, that doesn't explain how a black globe could store energy there and yield a destructive event if they were overfilled. I suspect someone more versed in physics could contrive a more believable bit of hoakum.

I'm tempted by the use of Higgs particle/antiparticle interaction. You could always just wave hands furiously and waffle on about dark matter and dark energy - works for astro-physisists these days

Hmm, the jump capacitors store dark energy.

The Annic Nova's solar array gathers dark energy from a star...

sounds too much like Alternity

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello Carlobrand

That wouldn't be my handwave either - creates complications. Errata says the capacitors cannot be used to power the ship. Original rules on jump drive capacitors said the same. My rule was that the capacitors aren't storing electrical power; they're converting electrical power into another form of energy, then dumping THAT energy into the jump coils.

I'm still wrestling with a likely candidate for the energy form. Has to be something that can be readily manipulated by a TL 9 society. One option is a chemical that alters in the presence of a magnetic field, storing energy as a chemical change and then delivering a massive photon pulse into the jump coils when triggered. Another option is the magnetic field itself: the jump reactor feeding the capacitor a massive burst of electrical energy that the capacitor converts into a brief massive magnetic field that interacts with lanthanum-based superconducting coils to trigger the jump field, with the initial power plant energy prior to jump being used to prime the capacitor and establish a counterfield around the capacitor that shields the rest of the ship from the magnetic burst. Unfortunately, that doesn't explain how a black globe could store energy there and yield a destructive event if they were overfilled. I suspect someone more versed in physics could contrive a more believable bit of hoakum.

I go with the capacitors storing electrical enegry which gets manipulated by circuitry inside the drive unit providing the right type and level of energy which the computer meters out to lanthanum coils and the hull's jump grid wiring.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello again Mike Wightman,

My rule was that the capacitors aren't storing electrical power; they're converting electrical power into another form of energy, then dumping THAT energy into the jump coils.

Yup I agree with that.

I go with the idea the capacitors store electrical energy that the circuitry inside the jump drive under the ship's computer's control manipulates and channels to the lanthanum coils and the network of wiring wiring on the hull. If there is a change from electrical energy to some other energy form that is done inside the jump drive housing.

I have started using the term jump potential energy to describe the energy stored in the jump capacitor.

I'm tempted by the use of Higgs particle/antiparticle interaction. You could always just wave hands furiously and waffle on about dark matter and dark energy - works for astro-physisists these days

Hmm, the jump capacitors store dark energy.

The Annic Nova's solar array gathers dark energy from a star...

sounds too much like Alternity

I just did a quick search on the Higgs particle kind of interesting, at least the parts that didn't make my eyes cross.

 

[McPerth]

HG has a number of rules related to Jumping and EP.

In the Combat section..

Jumping: A ship which breaks off by jumping must have a destination and enough fuel to get there. It must expend energy points equal to two turns output from a power plant whose number is equal to the jump being attempted (EP required =0.01MJn). If it can do this in two turns, it jumps at the end of two turns. If it can do this in one turn or less, it jumps at the end of one turn (in the pursuit step). A ship which cannot summon the required energy in two turns may not jump at all. ....

In the Black Globe section of combat...

If a ship absorbs enough energy to make a jump, and is supplied with sufficient fuel, it may jump at the end of the turn.

True, and this is the basis of all the discussion here, but see that in the quote from page 43, the term enough energy is not defined, not even by refereing you to page 39, so we don't know how much energy is enough for a jump, and the needs described in page 39 seem contradictory with the capacity of the capacitors needed for the jump.

I have started using the term jump potential energy to describe the energy stored in the jump capacitor.

I'm tempted by the use of Higgs particle/antiparticle interaction. You could always just wave hands furiously and waffle on about dark matter and dark energy - works for astro-physisists these days

Hmm, the jump capacitors store dark energy.

The Annic Nova's solar array gathers dark energy from a star...

sounds too much like Alternity

Also about the energy class used and alternative methods of jumping, if you forgive me to add MT information in a CT thread, in MT:RM page 71, along other very high weaponry for starships, there appear the jump projectors (TL 21):

MT:RM page 59:

Jump projectors induce a jump field arround the target, causing it to misjump

AFAIK they are only featured in MT, but, again AFAIK MT is the only version to feature items for higher TLs (up to 21). I've heard T5 also has such itmes, I don't know if it also features jump projectors or any symilar concept.

 

[BytePro]

True, and this is the basis of all the discussion here, but see that in the quote from page 43, the term enough energy is not defined, not even by refereing you to page 39, so we don't know how much energy is enough for a jump, and the needs described in page 39 seem contradictory with the capacity of the capacitors needed for the jump.

The EP required for jump is explicitly defined on pg 39 (no reference is needed on following pages - where else does any text reference another page explicitly?).

EP required = 0.01MJn

Note, this is the same EP as available from an equal rated PP re:HG pg 27, 'the energy points available to the ship' is 0.01MPn, with the exception of TL 15 also adding dtons of PP and PP fuel. (Note also, errata should include charging Jump capacitors as a fifth purpose of energy points. )

The two turn vs. one turn text is just there as full output of a PP would never be available to J-Drive in a single turn (one needs to run the computer, LS, etc.). Hence, another advantage of TL15 plus and higher than minimum required Pn.

From pg 42 (oops -I wrote 43 above) -

dTons of Capacitors = 0.005MJn (book uses 0.5%MJn).
EP per dton of caps = 36.
Turn discharge rate max = EP of PP.​

So, for a TL-9-TL-E 1000 dton Jn-1 (Pn 1) starship we have:

dTons for J-Drive = 20 dtons.
dTons of caps = 5 dtons
EP generated by equal rated PP = 10 EP.
EP required for jump (within 1-2 turns) = 10 EP.
Max EP dischargeable per turn = 10 EP.
Total EP storage (before failure) = 180 EP.​

Note it doesn't matter what the total EP before failure is to the J-Drive - the specs state 0.5%MJn caps are required and that 0.01MJn EP in a turn is required of them (jump takes only a turn - it may take 2 turns to power up caps).

A capacitor is like an energy spring. In this case the spring can only release a fixed amount in a given time (a turn), though it may be compressed further (storing more energy) till it fails. This is essentially the way a RW capacitor in a circuit works. (You can blow a single capacitor by overcharging too quickly, but its overload limit is much lower than here - however, one could setup a circuit bank that would discharge at a max rate while continuing to overcharge for later - this is one way that capacitors can be used like a battery...)

So, the math is all there and complete and logical. The assumptions and logic in this thread are not so much - and hence trying to plug holes that just aren't there... (I'm stating this in a factual way - not a critical one! )

As to the 'errata' about not using capacitor power for other uses...
HG (Classic Reprint Ed) explicitly states that 'Stored energy may be removed from the capacitors by using it to power the ship.' Note that it does not explicitly state this is the only way - the following sentence merely states 'may dispose' limits. I haven't seen it, but I seriously doubt the errata states this is wrong because the energy is in an unusual form - merely that it is unusable for other purposes (for meta-game reasons, almost certainly). Naturally it would be unusable in a normal hookup - as one would be trying to feed the stored power in the Jump capacitors backwards into the PP. Alternatively, the output of the capacitors would have to be wired into the power network of the rest of the ship and be diverted from use in the Jump Drive. This would not be a typical capacitor setup, IMO, so yeah I would go along with the errata re: Jump drive capacitors (not extra capacitors, though, setup explicitly for the purpose of supporting a black globe).

Again, a non-issue.

Enjoy!

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello and good morning/afternoon/evening McPerth,

True, and this is the basis of all the discussion here, but see that in the quote from page 43, the term enough energy is not defined, not even by refereing you to page 39, so we don't know how much energy is enough for a jump, and the needs described in page 39 seem contradictory with the capacity of the capacitors needed for the jump.

Hopefully most people would read page 31 first, page 39 second, and finally page 43. Unfortunately I'm not most people , I went from page 31 to 43 and recently, hence this post, 39.

Starting with page 31 in Screens/Force Fields page provides the following overview:

"Force Field Generators project a spherical energy-absorbing shell around a ship, and are therefore known as block globe screens. All energy, whatever its form, that contacts the black globe is absorbed and diverted to the ship's capacitors, doing no damage.

The capacitors contained in the ship's jump drive may be used to store this energy; additional capacitors may also be purchase. The capacitors mass .5% of the ship's mass, per jump number; for example, a drive capable of Jump-3 includes capacitors equal to 1.5% of the ship's mass. Additional capacitors may be purchased at MCr4.0 per ton. One ton of capacitors (in the jump drive or not) will hold 36 EPs."

Note that the Force Field section doesn't reference page 42 either.

Page 39 provides the formula on calculating the EP requirement for a jump drive, which in my opinion should have been included in the details for determining Energy Points on page 27 and/or the Drives section on page 22.

Pages 42 and 43 provides more information on black globes. The new information covers

1. Flicker rates
2. How to determine the amount of energy absorbed based on weapon type and factor
3. Exceeding the capacitors storage EP destroys the ship (not referencing page 39)
4. Agility rating is reduced.
5. How to get rid of the abosrded energy
6. Jump capacitors charged by a black globe can with the required amount of fuel make a jump.

Recaps the following:
1. 1 ton of capacitors hold 36 EPs
2. How to calculate how many tons of capacitors are in a jump drive

Since I was working on getting a handle on the ship design sequence I looked at the table of contents and skipped to pages 42-43 titled: The Black Globe.

In any case a little digging or following the process I laid out one can determine that Jump Drive EP = 0.01 x Hull Tons x Jn

Also about the energy class used and alternative methods of jumping, if you forgive me to add MT information in a CT thread, in MT:RM page 71, along other very high weaponry for starships, there appear the jump projectors (TL 21):

MT:RM page 59:

Jump projectors induce a jump field arround the target, causing it to misjump

AFAIK they are only featured in MT, but, again AFAIK MT is the only version to feature items for higher TLs (up to 21). I've heard T5 also has such itmes, I don't know if it also features jump projectors or any symilar concept.

Over on ct-starships Donald McKinney ran a discussion title HG3, which he eventually indicated was a draft for T5. IIRC Jump Projectors were added along with systems from other Traveller versions that fit with HG.

GURPS Traveller, using GURPS Vehicles, can have jsut about any type of weapon you want to design. Of course conversion between CT/MT/TNE/T4 and GURPS can be tricky.