HG2 Black Globe and jump drive capacitors

[snrdg082102]

Howdy Mike Wightman,

First my apologies if I have aready made a comment on this, the fun time I had yesterday put me behind looking at the my email for new posts. The big kicker is that clicking on the associated link in the email isn't taking me to the post. I'm going to the newest one, which means I have to scroll back to the correct one.

Okay, back to the post.

HG is pretty clear - 2 turns output from a power plant rated equal to the jump drive - or at least the jump being performed

It then goes on to put a formula in parenthesis that contradicts this


2% of the hull tonnage per jump number worth of EP to initiate the jump according to the text, 1% of the hull tonnage per jump number worth of EP according to the formula.

They both can't be right.

My interpretation, as probably mentioned once or twice, is that when a ship's captain in combat decides to break off the enegagement by jumping needs to provide twice the required EP needed by the jump drive a routine insertion from normal space to jump space.

In order to determine the EP required for a normal insertion the formula is 0.01 x M x Jn when one has the luxury of doing the calculations while transiting to the 100 D limit and the jump point.

Calculating a jump to break off combat does not permit the luxury of prolonged calculations. The navigator has to do a down dirty calculation which the powers that be say needs to be 2x the required EP of a normal insertion into jump space which alters the formula to 2 x 0.01 EP = 0.02 EP x M x Jn.

In the Standard Ship's Operating Procedures (SSOP) the normal jump space insertion formula is Required Jump EP = 0.01 x M x Jn and the emergency, which probably lists what conditions consitutes an emergency, jump space insertion formula is EP = 0.02 x M x Jn.

So they are both correct depending on the conditions.

The example that follows clarifies things it is the text that is correct and the formula that is wrong since a power plant 8 jump 5 takes 2 turns.

The formula should read EP required = 0.02MJn

Plus you need to then burn the fuel for the jump.

The EP required to jump out of combat is different since the time frame to refine the calculation for a routine jump is not there. The navigator has to run the calculation with whatever data, not as precise, in 20 to 40 minutes under fire.

Marc's jumpspace article and the rules for drop tanks also show that the capacitors can discharge in less than a 20 minute combat turn.

I'll agree capacitors charge and discharge rates are under 20 minutes, however a majority of the 20 minutes appears to making the preparations to make the jump.

And filling your capacitors does not destroy the ship - the rules state that you have to take more damage on top of having full capacitors

From page 42: "If a black globe absorb's energy and the ship's capacitors are already full, the ship is destroyed."

Here is how I see the rule: The capacitors installed in the jump drive can store 3,600 EP and requires 300 EP for a jump. The ship has a black globe and is preparing to break of by jumping. The capacitors have absorbed 3,100 EP prior to the jump. Dumping 2 x required EP pushes the capacitors from 3,100 + (2 x 300) = 3,100 + 600 = 3,700 EP which exceeds the storage capacity destroying the ship by gutting engineering at a minimum.

IIRC there are pictures showing the wreckage of the USS Thresher strewn on the sea floor after going past crush depth. This is similar to how I see when the jump capacitors go off when exceeding the maximum EP rating.

 

[BytePro]

The EP stored in the caps from the BG can be used for the jump - therefore 3,100 - 600 = 2,500 EP to dissipate while in jump.

<donning FireFly cunning hat...> Shiny - ship don't go boom.

We do not know how fast the capacitors feed energy into the jump coil - we just know that Marc says it is fast and only takes a few minutes.

We know they require 0.02MJn EPs to charge in preparation for a jump and that this can be provided in 20 mins.

No need to know the exact rate - we have a min rate defined by exactly what you stated above.

0.02MPn EP being fed in and discharged out within 20 minutes - several minutes longer than a combat round. That's a rate. Plus, with only 0.01MJn EP explicitly required, appreciable leakage has been accounted for.
:smirk:

Yep - that all works out very well.

And, yeah, these are fantasy capacitors - so having significantly extra storage capacity that can't be discharged fast enough for the Jump drive, as the rule mechanics define it, is even more plausible.

 

[McPerth]

Hi again Tom,

I may be confused by the above so my comment may be out to lunch. My understanding is that the jump drive has the capacitors installed during the time the component is built. The tons and cost of the capacitors included as part of the total drive cost.

Adding 10 tons of jump capacitors as part of a black globe installation, at least to me, is a separate installation from the jump drive.

You're not confused, but perhaps I explained it poorly.

If your ship does only needs 1/9th to 1/18th, depending on how do you read the text and formula, of the capacitors installed, then you could install less, so reducing the jump drive tonnage (about 25-43% of wich is capacitors), by about 20-35% (the spare capacitors).

I don't have my books right here, but IIRC the cost per ton of JD was also MCr 4, and that's what I was talking about.

 

[snrdg082102]

The EP stored in the caps from the BG can be used for the jump - therefore 3,100 - 600 = 2,500 EP to dissipate while in jump.

<donning FireFly cunning hat...> Shiny - ship don't go boom.

The computer instead of discharging 600 EP from the capacitors holding 3,100 EP absorbed by a black globe diverts 600 EP from the power plant, which causes the ship to be puff out in a fireball.

No need to know the exact rate - we have a min rate defined by exactly what you stated above.

0.02MPn EP being fed in and discharged out within 20 minutes - several minutes longer than a combat round. That's a rate. Plus, with only 0.01MJn EP explicitly required, appreciable leakage has been accounted for.
:smirk:

Yep - that all works out very well.

The minimum time that the pre-combat decision to break off by jumping can occur is 20 minutes or 1 combat turn, while the maximum time is 40 minutes, or 2 combat turns.

Ship data:
Name: Jewel
10,000 tons; Model 4 fib computer (EP 2), J-4 drive (max of 40 EP required), M-4 drive, and Power plant 8 (800 EP). Weapons include 10 triple beam laser turrets (max 30 EP), 10 triple sandcasters turrets (0
EP), and 10 triple missile turrets (0 EP).

Situation 1:
The Jewel departs from a system's main world which is size 8 at 1G transiting to the 100 D limit which takes 5 hours or 300 minutes. During the transit the computer is number crunching for the best solution to a system 2 parsecs away. The power plant has an output of 800 EP. The jump drive requires 200 EP to make the 2 parsec jump. At some point the computer begins charging the capacitors to 200 EP. When the jump insertion point is reached the computer discharges the capacitors into the lanthanum jump coils and the network of jump wiring on the hull which opens a hole to jump space sending the ship on its plus or minus 1 week trip.

Situation 2:
Everything is the same as in Situation 2 except that the Jewel encounters a hostile ship or ships 3 combat turns or 60 minutes from the 100 D limit. The Jewel's skipper decides to break off combat by jumping. In this situation the power plant has to output 400 EP solely to the jump drive. The computer is drawing 2 EP from the power plant leaving 798 EP to charge the jump capacitor. Diverting the 798 EP allows the Jewel transit in 1 combat. If the power plant diverts only 200 EP then the jump doesn't happen. When the power plant expends 298 EP, taking the computer into account, the ship jumps in 40 minutes.

This completes the HG combat phase for the Jewel, however since the ship made a jump a check is made to if there are any malfunctions occur. The Jewel checks to see if she misjumps and luck is on her side and she arrives at the intended destination.

Of course if I was the pilot the ship would have misjumped.

And, yeah, these are fantasy capacitors - so having significantly extra storage capacity that can't be discharged fast enough for the Jump drive, as the rule mechanics define it, is even more plausible.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hi back at you McPerth,

Hi again Tom,



You're not confused, but perhaps I explained it poorly.

Thanks about letting me know I'm not confused does ownders for my ego.

For most of the others your explaination appears to be fine, however I seem to be an exception.

If your ship does only needs 1/9th to 1/18th, depending on how do you read the text and formula, of the capacitors installed, then you could install less, so reducing the jump drive tonnage (about 25-43% of wich is capacitors), by about 20-35% (the spare capacitors).

I don't have my books right here, but IIRC the cost per ton of JD was also MCr 4, and that's what I was talking about.

Yep, JDs cost 4 MCr per ton.

Now this time I'm getting the big picture, thanks for explaining this to a slow grey haired old retired submarine sailor.

 

[BytePro]

...
If your ship does only needs 1/9th to 1/18th, depending on how do you read the text and formula, of the capacitors installed, then you could install less, so reducing the jump drive tonnage (about 25-43% of wich is capacitors), by about 20-35% (the spare capacitors).

I don't have my books right here, but IIRC the cost per ton of JD was also MCr 4, and that's what I was talking about.

Yep. If the ship doesn't want to jump, it can get by with smaller jump capacitors..

The capacitors installed are what is required for the jump drive - which obviously isn't just about EP storage, or most ships without BGs would have smaller jump drives.

That's the rules.

Don't mean you can't change them and use whatever rationale you choose.

 

[McPerth]

Yep. If the ship doesn't want to jump, it can get by with smaller jump capacitors..

The capacitors installed are what is required for the jump drive - which obviously isn't just about EP storage, or most ships without BGs would have smaller jump drives.

That's the rules.

Don't mean you can't change them and use whatever rationale you choose.

That's what I understand, an so, I understand the power requirements to jump are more than those 2 turns worth PP, and given by the JD, described both in Marc's article and in MT:SOM as a fusion plant that burns hydrogen quickly. In this sense I like the concept that this needed EPs fro mthe PP are "warming up" needs for the JD.

The problems in that are:

- When in page 43 is said If the ship absorbs enough energy to make a jump, it talks about this warming up energy or the whole energy needed?

- In the former case, what happens if the capacitors hole more than just the required energy, s oactivating the JD will give the capacitors more energy than they can store?

- In the latter case, why does the ship to have its whole jump fuel needs to jump, if it doesn't need to generate the jump energy?

 

[snrdg082102]

Morning BytePro and McPerth,

Originally Posted by McPerth
...
If your ship does only needs 1/9th to 1/18th, depending on how do you read the text and formula, of the capacitors installed, then you could install less, so reducing the jump drive tonnage (about 25-43% of wich is capacitors), by about 20-35% (the spare capacitors).

Yep. If the ship doesn't want to jump, it can get by with smaller jump capacitors..

The capacitors installed are what is required for the jump drive - which obviously isn't just about EP storage, or most ships without BGs would have smaller jump drives.

That's the rules.

Don't mean you can't change them and use whatever rationale you choose.

I hadn't really thought about the impact that McPerth's suggestion might have on the official rules. Thanks McPerth and BytePro for the input.

 

[rancke]

Yep. If the ship doesn't want to jump, it can get by with smaller jump capacitors..

In which case you DO need the full volume of capacitors and the explanation that you only need 1/9th or 1/18th of them is male bovine excrement. Back to square one.

The capacitors installed are what is required for the jump drive - which obviously isn't just about EP storage, or most ships without BGs would have smaller jump drives.

That's the rules.

We know what the rules are. But you (the people contributing to the thread) are trying to come up with a rationale for the rules. So just pointing out that "That's the rules" is profoundly unhelpful.

It's my (possibly incorrect; I haven't studied the problem intensively) belief that the rules and descriptions of how the jump drive functions are mutually contradictory and in some cases self-contradictory. In which case you're not going to solve the conundrum without selecting one or more rules and saying "That rule is wrong". And then work out a self-consistent non-setting-disrupting version of how jump drives work based on the remaining, now hopefully compatible, rules and descriptions and prevail upon Marc Miller to say "That rule and that rule are wrong and this is how it works, and don't you forget it!"

That being the case, trumping each other's canon is just going to go round and round in circles until the debate, as so many before, peters out from sheer exhaustion. If you want a useful result, you'll have to concentrate on agreeing on which rules to keep and which rules to toss. Don't concentrate on what you personally think is the "right" way to resolve this and that contradiction; concentrate on what resolution you can accept without having your belief suspenders torn asunder and work towards a consensus.


Hans

 

[snrdg082102]

Howdy rancke,

It's my (possibly incorrect; I haven't studied the problem intensively) belief that the rules and descriptions of how the jump drive functions are mutually contradictory and in some cases self-contradictory.

The Jumpspace article actually supports, at least in my opinion, the contradictory rules and descriptions on how jump drives function. From page 21: Jump Theory: "There are several differing theories of jump space,..."

If there a differing theories on jump space there are going to be at least the same number or more differing theories on how a jump drive functions.

IIRC a majority of the rule sets agree that the jump drive has capacitors, a grid of some sort on the hull, and needs large quantities of energy and fuel.

The main issue is how the drive uses the huge amount of fuel flooding into the power plant.

"A precise understanding of jump"

or jump drives

"is not necessarily a prerequisite..."

. As long as there are rules to design the drive I don't need to know how they work.

The theory would probably giving me a bigger headache

That being the case, trumping each other's canon is just going to go round and round in circles until the debate, as so many before, peters out from sheer exhaustion. If you want a useful result, you'll have to concentrate on agreeing on which rules to keep and which rules to toss. Don't concentrate on what you personally think is the "right" way to resolve this and that contradiction; concentrate on what resolution you can accept without having your belief suspenders torn asunder and work towards a consensus.


Hans

I guess I'm not paying attention since my main intent started out trying to verify the the formula on page 42 was for tons or EP. Looks like the thread has changed tracks.

Thanks for the wake-up call.

 

[BytePro]

In which case you DO need the full volume of capacitors and the explanation that you only need 1/9th or 1/18th of them is male bovine excrement. Back to square one.

Yep - the idea that the rules are broken and one only needs a fraction of the capacitors for the jump drive based on ignoring the rate factor and only comparing EP is crap.

...
We know what the rules are. But you (the people contributing to the thread) are trying to come up with a rationale for the rules. So just pointing out that "That's the rules" is profoundly unhelpful. ...

Hans,

If you read my posts I bothered to try and explain the rationale for the rules - which make perfect sense if one knows about RW capacitors and understands the difference between rate and a simple total quantity. I've no doubt that the authors did.

The other unnecessary rationals presented so far all fail my suspension of disbelief and lead to other game and rule contradictions.

Of course there need be no real rationals other than that the creators of the rules wanted things a certain way, or messed up. But, by and large, I find CT was very well designed and works quite well when one has the proper frame of reference.

 

[rancke]

The Jumpspace article actually supports, at least in my opinion, the contradictory rules and descriptions on how jump drives function. From page 21: Jump Theory: "There are several differing theories of jump space,..."

It does not support contradictory rules about how the same version of a jump drive actually works (or contradictory rules and in-setting explanations). Nothing can support contradictory rules. The only way to deal with contradictory rules is either to ignore the contradictions, to the detriment of whatever willing suspension of disbelief a player feels the need for to enjoy the game (which can be 'none', in which case I admit that there's no problem), or to resolve to change or even ignore one or more of the rules.


Hans

 

[rancke]

If you read my posts I bothered to try and explain the rationale for the rules - which make perfect sense if one knows about RW capacitors and understands the difference between rate and a simple total quantity. I've no doubt that the authors did.

The other unnecessary rationals presented so far all fail my suspension of disbelief and lead to other game and rule contradictions.

Of course there need be no real rationals other than that the creators of the rules wanted things a certain way, or messed up. But, by and large, I find CT was very well designed and works quite well when one has the proper frame of reference.

My apologies if my admittedly cursory perusal of the posts in thread has caused me to misunderstand and malign you.


Hans

 

[BytePro]

Thanks, no problem - I know you are trying to be constructive and I don't blame you for not reading my word vomit.

CT's terse rules are not always clear, ala the OPs query. My non-terse explanations aren't any clearer, to be sure, but I sincerely try. (I even try being terse, but I stink at that too. )

The lack of details in the LBBs is what makes the jump rules 'work' pretty well, IME - I never had JTAS 24 or anything other than 5 rulebooks and the forms and animals supplements. Fortunately this also means I missed out on the jump grid and 100D from stars stuffs.

I did change misjumps from weeks to days as I have the jump drive consuming jump fuel (and power) for the duration of the jump. It never occurred to me that the fuel would all be used initially - and the notion rather snaps my suspenders, though it makes things easy metagame (in mine I have to calc fuel usage randomly for misjumps - but I also do 'leftover' from normal jumps using 1D6+skill %). IMTU, loss of feed of fuel or power, as well as any Jump Drive specific failure (sabotage? :devil causes immediate dropping out of jump with location determined by misjump rules minus the time roll. I've used the mechanic a few times.

 

[snrdg082102]

Late Morning PST ranke,

It does not support contradictory rules about how the same version of a jump drive actually works (or contradictory rules and in-setting explanations). Nothing can support contradictory rules. The only way to deal with contradictory rules is either to ignore the contradictions, to the detriment of whatever willing suspension of disbelief a player feels the need for to enjoy the game (which can be 'none', in which case I admit that there's no problem), or to resolve to change or even ignore one or more of the rules.


Hans

Overall I don't have an issue with the rules as written, my issue is trying to get the math to work or clarify what unit of measure the answer is supposed to represent.

Thanks as always for the comments.

 

[snrdg082102]

The lack of details in the LBBs is what makes the jump rules 'work' pretty well, IME - I never had JTAS 24 or anything other than 5 rulebooks and the forms and animals supplements. Fortunately this also means I missed out on the jump grid and 100D from stars stuffs.

If LBB 2 is in the collection listed above gremlins must have sneaked in and erased some of the text:

Book 2 Starships page 6 Starship Malfunctions

"Misjump: Each time a ship engages in a jump, throw 13+ for a misjump:

Apply the following DMs: +1 if using unrefined fuel (and not equipped to do so), +5 if within 100 planetary diameters of a world, +15 if within 10 planetary diameters of a world. If the result is 16+, then the ship is destroyed.

A misjump is an unpredictable random jump. Throw one die to determine the number of dice thrown (1 to 6); throw that number of dice to determine the number of hexes in length the misjump is. Then throw one die to determine the direction of the misjump (one of the six directions possible on the hex grid). Finally throw one die to determine the number of weeks spent in jump space before the ship re-emerges at its new location."

I did change misjumps from weeks to days as I have the jump drive consuming jump fuel (and power) for the duration of the jump. It never occurred to me that the fuel would all be used initially - and the notion rather snaps my suspenders, though it makes things easy metagame (in mine I have to calc fuel usage randomly for misjumps - but I also do 'leftover' from normal jumps using 1D6+skill %). IMTU, loss of feed of fuel or power, as well as any Jump Drive specific failure (sabotage?

) causes immediate dropping out of jump with location determined by misjump rules minus the time roll. I've used the mechanic a few times.

I'm to lazy to make the change and left the rule as is, of course in a couple of games I wished the misjump was in days dirty rotten GM .

I didn't think about whether or not the fuel for a jump was totally consumed just followed the example. Jn requires x tons of fuel which has to be topped off at the end of the jump.

Oh, you're one of the dirty rotten GMs and I'll add down right nasty.