Highports

[far-trader]

Assuming 'orbitals' is the term used... That also leaves E starports open to being 'highports'.

JTAS 19 Skyport Authority article copyright 1983 GDW:

Class A and B starports have orbital elements, stations in Clarke orbit above the ground element. Class C and D starports have ground elements only. Class E and X starports have no SPA facilities at all

So, geostationary over the ground port.

Class A and B do explicitly include both High Port and Down Port elements.

And Class C and D explicitly never include a High Port element.

It follows then, imo, that Class E and X are also never High Ports. They are below quality of C and D and the intent seems to be E and X are not going to be High Ports. Even calling them Down Ports in the proper sense is a misnomer. There is no Port. Either the IISS has marked a safe landing area (Class E) or not (Class X) but has done nothing else.

...that does not necessarily imply Highport to me (i.e. docking, customs, exchanges, etc.) - it could be for more limited function, such as repair/construction.

I think it would be fully featured, and is the intent. Though there are role-play arguments for making some paired ports limited either up or down it wouldn't really be the correct Class then.

And still no use of the term 'highport' in CT?

Comes pretty close in the Skyport Authority* article. In the colour text about slang there is:

"Dirtside" and "down" are also used to refer to starport ground elements, as: Gwydion Down, San Cristofe Dirtside. By corollary, orbital elements are known as "up," "skyside," "over," and occasionally "shinyside" (as in "keep the shinyside up and ..." ).

I know, I groaned out loud at "shinyside"... but "Down" is just short of "Down Port" and follows easily enough. Likewise "High Port" seems a logical addition much more so than "shinyside" imo.

* speaking of... the article title is Skyport Authority but within the article the career is called Starport Authority. So, which is the 'real' SPA?

EDIT: Ah! One final little note, at the very end of the article, a table footnote, gives us "Startown" for the (presumably) civilian/local elements associated/located with the Down Port. Just the Down Port. I wonder if that is meant to suggest that the High Port has no such comfort elements and is just a place to park the ship and get necessaries for it? Anything else you have to visit Startown at the Down Port.

 

[BytePro]

Shiny, eh? Nope - not IMTV! (In My Taveller 'Verse! - don't miss the embedded pun)

Thanks for the direct quotes far-trader!

My literal take: great support ('canon' enough for me) for all Imperium Class A/B having orbital elements which are 'stations' (i.e. manned or man-able - my definition - is there one published in CT?) in geosync - and having some ground element.

Orbital elements being a vague statement - could mean simply surveillance, maintenance and fab facilities for dispersed ships, fuel depot, etc. But with 'Highport' not defined, I would not call them Highports by default. Leaving room to define Highport as something more specific - i.e. where ships can dock and do business without ever going 'down'... as Bk6 p26 states 'Starports are established primarily to foster interstellar trade and commerce.'. In other words, one wouldn't necessarily dock at an orbital element for trade, but would with a Highport.

Since 'element' isn't defined (is it?) - that leaves open for the Starport to be primarily down or high - just with a presence in both locations. Starports are defined (Bk3 pg9) as providing facilities for trade, surveys, fuel, construction and maintenance, to whatever degree with restrictions based on Class, but not detailed much further.

And that leads to your excellent point about Class E. 'Highport' would definitely not be applicable - in fact 'starport' isn't really, either, since the definition states 'no...facilities' (Bk3 pg10). This, however, does not preclude it from being orbital. The definition states 'Essentially a marked spot of bedrock...' - no reason that mark couldn't be from an orbital beacon. In fact, for atmo A-C, it would seem the best method - otherwise the 'marked spot' would have to be maintained. The article states no SPA facilities, which leave more wiggle room.

C & D are pretty explicit - ground elements only. Again, Imperium only perhaps. I can see definitely see C & D Highports as options in non-Imperium systems - they provide limited or no repair facilities in part because they are Highports. Ditto for not providing refined fuel - resources are more limited (PP/storage) and demand lower (trade possibly sticking to the Highport and not with the ground).

And Class X - well there's a 'landing' reference (sorry, missed that earlier)! Book 3 is a little more verbose than Book 6 - 'No starport. No provision is made for any ship landings.' Of course, from my example above, that can mean no orbital marker is available (i.e. a potential Class E).

JTAS articles may or may not be considered 'canon' - I'm just looking for anything that does define or qualify in the context of CT. If it doesn't break anything that is 'canon' then that is more than good enough for me to hang some stuff on.

In the true spirit of the CT core books, though, I look for the least restrictive definitions.

...Exonidas Spaceport, by Jeff Swycaffer, Dragon 059, pp 34-
It's an explicit "High Port" and "Down Port", two capitalized words each.

Wow - nice find!

Non-canon to be sure, but did it have an explicit definition of 'Highport'?

 

[Icosahedron]

It may interest you to note the following differences from the 1st Edition 1977 rules:
For type E, the 1977 version says a bare spot of bedrock, not a marked spot of bedrock.
For type X, the 77 version says any starship landings, not any ship landings (though with the difference between Ship and Boat being defined elsewhere as being the capability of Jump, this probably makes little difference).

So, (and this is what prompted me to look it up) in the original there was no mention of marking the spot on a class E port. In any case, it doesn't necessarily have to be marked on the ground, it could simply be marked on maps.

 

[aramis]

Shiny, eh? Nope - not IMTV! (In My Taveller 'Verse! - don't miss the embedded pun)

Thanks for the direct quotes far-trader!

My literal take: great support ('canon' enough for me) for all Imperium Class A/B having orbital elements which are 'stations' (i.e. manned or man-able - my definition - is there one published in CT?) in geosync - and having some ground element.

Orbital elements being a vague statement - could mean simply surveillance, maintenance and fab facilities for dispersed ships, fuel depot, etc. But with 'Highport' not defined, I would not call them Highports by default. Leaving room to define Highport as something more specific - i.e. where ships can dock and do business without ever going 'down'... as Bk6 p26 states 'Starports are established primarily to foster interstellar trade and commerce.'. In other words, one wouldn't necessarily dock at an orbital element for trade, but would with a Highport.

Since 'element' isn't defined (is it?) - that leaves open for the Starport to be primarily down or high - just with a presence in both locations. Starports are defined (Bk3 pg9) as providing facilities for trade, surveys, fuel, construction and maintenance, to whatever degree with restrictions based on Class, but not detailed much further.

And that leads to your excellent point about Class E. 'Highport' would definitely not be applicable - in fact 'starport' isn't really, either, since the definition states 'no...facilities' (Bk3 pg10). This, however, does not preclude it from being orbital. The definition states 'Essentially a marked spot of bedrock...' - no reason that mark couldn't be from an orbital beacon. In fact, for atmo A-C, it would seem the best method - otherwise the 'marked spot' would have to be maintained. The article states no SPA facilities, which leave more wiggle room.

C & D are pretty explicit - ground elements only. Again, Imperium only perhaps. I can see definitely see C & D Highports as options in non-Imperium systems - they provide limited or no repair facilities in part because they are Highports. Ditto for not providing refined fuel - resources are more limited (PP/storage) and demand lower (trade possibly sticking to the Highport and not with the ground).

And Class X - well there's a 'landing' reference (sorry, missed that earlier)! Book 3 is a little more verbose than Book 6 - 'No starport. No provision is made for any ship landings.' Of course, from my example above, that can mean no orbital marker is available (i.e. a potential Class E).

JTAS articles may or may not be considered 'canon' - I'm just looking for anything that does define or qualify in the context of CT. If it doesn't break anything that is 'canon' then that is more than good enough for me to hang some stuff on.

In the true spirit of the CT core books, though, I look for the least restrictive definitions.


Wow - nice find!

Non-canon to be sure, but did it have an explicit definition of 'Highport'?

Only as a two word term.

FIGURE 3: EXONIDAS HIGH PORT
The High Port is a 100-million-ton facility
quite removed in structure from
any spaceship. Despite this, it can be
described in the terms of Traveller Book
5, 1980 edition, as follows:

1OO,OOO,OOO tons
SW-Z400GJ4-00000Z-00000-L
Batteries _____ 2
TL=15
Crew = 1400
Fuel tankage = 10,000,000 tons​

More than anything else, the High Port
is an orbiting fuel tank where ships can
refuel before Jump, without having to
carry that fuel down to the planet and
back up. Since Jump fuel usually composes
a sizable percentage of a ship’s
mass, the overall savings are significant.​

It's also noted that most of the fuel at the downport is skimmed at the GG, compressed in orbit there, free-fall cast to the highport, captured, drained into the highport or canisters lowered by the capture grid.

 

[atpollard]

It's also noted that most of the fuel at the downport is skimmed at the GG, compressed in orbit there, free-fall cast to the highport, captured, drained into the highport or canisters lowered by the capture grid.

Squirting LH2 from a hose, through space towards a space station seems a peculiar delivery system to me. Will LH2 even stay liquid in the vacuum of space?

 

[aramis]

Squirting LH2 from a hose, through space towards a space station seems a peculiar delivery system to me. Will LH2 even stay liquid in the vacuum of space?

I forgot to mention it's fired off in canisters. Ooops...

 

[Jame]

I have thought for a long time that Class C ports really ought to have highports and refined fuel. The difference between them and Class B ports would be that C ports do not construct spaceships, or at least not ships bigger than 200 tons.

Oh, and E ports should have unrefined fuel and a bit of repair at GM's discretion.

 

[rancke]

I have thought for a long time that Class C ports really ought to have highports and refined fuel. The difference between them and Class B ports would be that C ports do not construct spaceships, or at least not ships bigger than 200 tons.

There are several difference between Class C and Class B starports, but only one difference between Class B starports and Class A starports -- a difference that would be of interest to very few poeple (other than wargamers) -- namely whether the vessels that they can construct are spaceboats or starships (A difference that should be inferrable from the local tech level in most cases).

I think it would be a very good idea to retroactively redefine Class B starports to being ports capable of annual maintenance and major repairs but not construction. Class C starports would then have medium repairs and refined fuel, but not annual maintenance (I agree that if Class C starports are, as labeled, 'routine quality', they should have refined fuel available, seeing as the investment needed for a fuel purifier plant and a bit of fuel tankage is so relatively low).

Oh, and E ports should have unrefined fuel and a bit of repair at GM's discretion.

Then they would be Class D ports.


Hans

 

[BytePro]

Only as a two word term.
...

Thanks aramis!

Not much by way of definition of 'Highport', but I think it would qualify as such - starships can dock and then be on their way, with a crew of 1,400 that station probably does more than just act as a fuel stop.

There are several difference between Class C and Class B starports, but only one difference between Class B starports and Class A starports...

On first glance the starport classes do seem to have unreasonable gaps and overlaps.

However, there are a number of subtle and game mechanic differences - from the descriptions, the first thing that differentiates starports is 'quality of installation'. So its not just about the availability of facilities.

Of course, the original books 1-3 didn't really elaborate on this game mechanic wise. The difference in starship vs. space ship construction, vs. repair isn't defined, either. Annual overhaul doesn't really equate to repair or replacement, to me. Thus to a starship with damaged Jump drive - Class A/B makes a difference.

Book 2 had berthing costs listed as 'Per starport.', but didn't set any differences. There is some mention, IIRC, about subsidized costs - IMTU Class A were occasionally more expensive than B, but generally not bacuse I provided other advantages. However, Class C/D could be significantly less or more expensive than either, depending on whether the port was on a regular route or not and whether it was likely to impact the local system for trade or just as a stopover.

Book 7 adds higher skill broker availability for Class A and starport effects to cost of goods offers -1,000 Cr for Class A.

IMTU, Class A starports gave +DMs to finding passengers, buying and selling, acquiring gear, meeting patrons, and scheduling time for maintenance (still took as long). I often left fees the same - i.e. more bang for the buck.

As to Class C getting doubly dinged in terms of fuel and annual maintenance - that jump made sense to me. Routine quality only offering the type of fuel needed (refined is really a 'luxury') and repair to get something working again as opposed to annual maintenance intended to assure working condition over the course of a year (a 'quality' thing, IMO).

The cost of refined vs unrefined fuel vs. initial cost of fuel processors and time for processing, is what really seems wacky without some other balancing factor. Seems a Class C would jump at the chance to make the extra coin - but that might depend on whether it was a government subsidized port or not. IMTU, Class C starport systems often had non-starport refined fuel available - at a higher cost.

 

[atpollard]

I forgot to mention it's fired off in canisters. Ooops...

No problem. It just conjured a strange mental picture involving a fire hose aiming at a large funnel.

 

[far-trader]

I agree that if Class C starports are, as labeled, 'routine quality', they should have refined fuel available, seeing as the investment needed for a fuel purifier plant and a bit of fuel tankage is so relatively low.

As to Class C getting doubly dinged in terms of fuel... Routine quality only offering the type of fuel needed (refined is really a 'luxury')...


The cost of refined vs unrefined fuel vs. initial cost of fuel processors and time for processing, is what really seems wacky without some other balancing factor.

Indeed, "wacky without some other balancing factor" pretty well nails it. In my opinion the answer to both you gentlemen and the game in general is that HG broke the game fuel wise with the introduction of small cheap fuel purification aboard ship. At that point the game might as well drop all fuel differentiation and pricing. No properly designed ship should be without a purifier and nobody would be able to sell fuel when it can be got for virtually free. Even a 200ton Free-Trader can MAKE money with a TL13 purifier aboard by PAYING for unrefined fuel (iirc my work).

FWIW, with the chance of misjump and drive failure, IMO refined fuel is not a luxury, it is a requirement. In MTU it is a legal requirement for ships operating on a mortgage, carrying paying passengers, or carrying paid freight. Breaking the regulation will result in fines at the least (part of the cost of doing business in those backwater ports) and could be grounds for losing your ship (criminal negligence).

There is a way out (or back) though, as suggested by the very terminology itself. And it is very simple. Fuel purifiers DO NOT result in refined fuel. Note the bold. The HG item is NOT a fuel refiner. So the way I treat HG purifiers resets the TU to the pre-HG fuel meme where the game mechanics work. The best that purifiers do is give you unrefined fuel. The original idea that unrefined fuel was simply muddy salty water sucked up from an ocean or some vague compressed gas mix from a random gas giant never really made a lot of sense, did it?

So pretty much every ship will have purifiers so they can (only in emergencies usually) skim or dip and still operate, albeit at some risk of misjump and/or drive failure,

And properly refined fuel is (generally) only available at great expense and requiring the infrastructure of a high quality Starport.

The smaller and poorer quality Starports will have a HG ship sized purifier running to have a supply of unrefined fuel for those ships that don't have their own onboard purifier. Generally low tech small ships, like Free-Traders, or ships that don't expect to operate off the main routes where refined fuel is available.

Seems a Class C would jump at the chance to make the extra coin - but that might depend on whether it was a government subsidized port or not. IMTU, Class C starport systems often had non-starport refined fuel available - at a higher cost.

Seems a Class C can't afford the large investment in a fuel refinery and only have fuel purifiers to supply unrefined fuel If they had a fuel refinery they would have the rest to be a Class B Starport.

As for your TU non-starport sourced refined fuel, yep, that's possible. It's even canon In the Spinward Marches Campaign book that's how Al Morai operates. They have refined fuel and upgraded facilities at the Class C Starports they need to operate out of. Effectively creating a Class B Starport. For company ships only of course

 

[BytePro]

I like what you proposed at first, excepting...

So pretty much every ship will have purifiers so they can (only in emergencies usually) skim or dip and still operate, albeit at some risk of misjump and/or drive failure, ...

If fuel purification plants do not create refined fuel - ships that have fuel scoops alone couldn't make use of them for themselves without having 3 types of fuel - raw, purified and refined. Requires more game mechanics to support that concept and would 'break' all book 2 designs with fuel scoops.

From the original rules as written, with the addition of HG fuel purification plants to support adventuring away from the mainstream routes, the 'broken' part is really just the pricing.

Shipboard fuel purification plants should be a lot more expensive while processing a lot less than '1000 tons' in a given time. The 5x cost of refined vs unrefined could probably have been better as well - though the original intent was obviously to force adventuring for economic reasons.

I often didn't use prices as given in the books - figuring those were baselines and didn't make good fluff to have everything fixed all the time. It also can never work on a larger scale (trying to create something 'realistic' on a totally unrealistic fixed Cr foundation).

 

[far-trader]

I like what you proposed at first, excepting...



If fuel purification plants do not create refined fuel - ships that have fuel scoops alone couldn't make use of them for themselves without having 3 types of fuel - raw, purified and refined. Requires more game mechanics to support that concept and would 'break' all book 2 designs with fuel scoops.

Nope. If I read your concern correctly I've failed to explain it properly.

What I mean is with the introduction of HG fuel purifiers they effectively take the place of the old Navy and Scout ship rules on freely using unrefined fuel and expand it to permit all ships to have the same advantage. Effectively, with HG introducing the small cheap fuel purifiers creating refined fuel, there is no point in differentiating and unrefined fuel is gone. All ships can and will make their own refined fuel from free sources. This also means the rules for Starport differentiation based fuel supplies are toast. As well as the misjump McGuffin. And all the adventure plots hinging on unrefined fuel. Poof! All because of one (imo) poorly thought out idea.

Better imo to put all that back in the game by the simple expedient of saying HG fuel purifiers (again, please note it is NOT a refinery, implies it does NOT make refined fuel, despite claims) only provide unrefined fuel from raw sources. There is no introduction of new terms, it is a reset to the old terms of Raw (the source and unusable as is, water or gas), Unrefined (what you get with the purifier), and Refined (what you get from large, expensive, installations at Class A and B Starports).

There is no loss of old design theory, only a change when recreating old Book 2 designs with Book 5 designs. In my experience the Book 2 designs can be best recreated by taking it as a given that they include fuel purifiers. They are almost always economically smart and with the fuel tonnage saved from the much more efficient power plants there is more than enough room to include them. The cost is a non-factor.

Treated this way HG does not invalidate huge swaths of CT meme. I can't stress enough that if HG purifiers produce refined fuel the ideas of fuel grades and charging for it makes no sense. It's a user choice which way to go imo.

I choose to retain the fuel ideas and everything that goes with it and simply nerf the magic HG purifiers as stated. One easy rule and fix.

If you choose HG purifiers make refined fuel then yes, refined fuel will be used on every ship all the time, usually for free. The fuel definitions for Starports are superfluous. Drop them. You don't even have to argue that Class C and D Starports will have fuel purifiers to supply refined fuel. Every ship will have their own onboard purifiers. The idea of paying for fuel is also ludicrous. Drop it. Ships will simply dip, melt, or dive for free fuel. Misjumps and drive failure due to unrefined fuel use in desperation will never happen. Kiss those McGuffins goodbye. And how many other issues? And spinoffs from those... So many changes to fix and never a certainty you've covered it all. For what?

Nope, not one broken Book 2 design and less game mechanics. Any ship that had scoops now has purifiers (if redesigned properly with Book 5) that create unrefined fuel. Just like they used to get with those scoops. Only if anything it now makes some sense (imo at least) as you're not expecting me to swallow the idea that my drives can run just a little less reliably on seaweed, fish, and what ever other gunk is picked up with the plain water. Now we have a mechanism installed that can filter, process, and crack that water into nice clean hydrogen, though not upgrade it to purified quality.

 

[BytePro]

So retrofit all Book 2 designs to include purifiers? Eliminate unrefined fuel differences?

Scoops are for gas - not water, so not seeing the whole seaweed/fish thing myself!

Only the hydrogen would be extracted and stored from the water via hoses, filters and some means of cracking the water - not the raw water itself. My books only refer to gas giant skimming - not water skimming. Scooped atmo would actually have more contaminants to deal with - but given heating and gas filtration, seems a readily addressable concern (futurism considered).

HG has the fuel purification plant 'refining of the raw gas'.

Always seen the 'refining' as purifying the hydrogen and optimizing the isotope blend - so purifying/refining being interchangeable terminology.

Fuel was always free - just unrefined increased the odds of possible malfunction to ~3% (12+) followed by 7+ per drive (~58%). For Misjumps it made no difference if past 100D in a scout/naval ship - ~3% if not. Book 2 has military & quasi military as being able to use unrefined without penalty.

So, even without Fuel Purification Plants, not a lot of incentive to buy. HG makes this distinction easier with fuel purifiers. I'm not seeing a huge 'break' that HG fuel purifiers created - and the economics seemed sorta wacky in the first place, but I never gave it much thought till now...

Actually, 'fixing' the purchase vs free issue really doesn't require much:

• Landing on planets with starports (A/B) would generally be regulated such that one could not just land anywhere and snag some terrestrial water - meaning an in system side trip to go gas giant skimming or water collecting (costing time).
  
• Refining via Fuel Purifier Plant is setup for gas giant skimming and cracked water - not unrefined LHyd. So getting refined fuel into the ship any other way requires purchase (per first point) or refined LHyd transfer into tanks from another ship.
  
• Profiting as a mobile 'refinery' would have to factor in the cost of a ship (or at least those portions necessary) and its maintenance - so quite an investment. Starport refineries may be a lot more expensive, separately from a starship's infrastructure - and fuel has to come to it.

Not sure if this full concept was envisioned when the rules were written - but seems workable to me. My 'canon' sources are limited, so maybe some other rules throw a monkey wrench in the above logic, or I simply missed a facet of the originals.

 

[mike wightman]

You don't have High Guard?

It's called dipping.

page 17:

Fuel used for ships is hydrogen, which is available in the atmospheres of gas giants (similar to Saturn or Jupiter) or from oceans of water. Gas giants are present in any system on a throw of 9 or less; gas may be taken from them by dipping or skimming, a process which involves diving into the atmosphere and opening fuel scoops. Such a maneuver is possible for streamlined and partially streamlined hulls (configurations 1 t o 6). Large ships often carry streamlined fuel tankers which can skim fuel and return it to the unstreamlined parent ship. Water may also be used to provide hydrogen; it is available on any world with a hydrographics percentage of 3 or greater (lower hydrographic percentages require effort and referee control). Water is dipped from oceans by ships landing in the body of water and opening fuel cocks, or through the use of fuel shuttles. Fuel which is skimmed or dipped is unrefined, and may result in misjumps; fuel purification plants can convert such unrefined fuel to refined fuel for safe use.

 

[BytePro]

Yep...

...Water is dipped from oceans by ships landing in the body of water and opening fuel cocks, or through the use of fuel shuttles.​

Not the same as 'opening fuel scoops' and nothing stating comes in and goes directly to drives for use. One could choose to interpret things in such a way that the later was the case. Of course, that leads physical absurdities, like debris, that should be obvious. It also runs into the issue of tanking with water would result in quite different amounts of fuel, and why would bases provide hydrogen as unrefined fuel when they could just provide water and why would ships carry hydrogen, when they could just carry water.

 

[Carlobrand]

Couple of thoughts:

1. The fuel in the onboard tanks is liquid hydrogen, no? The stuff in the Gas Giant atmosphere is hydrogen gas and a bit of helium, traces of other elements as long as you stay high in the atmosphere. Ergo, the fuel scoops are a bit more complicated than just vents letting in the hydrogen. They act as compressors, condensing and cooling until the hydrogen (and presumably whatever else is in the mix) achieves a liquid state and can be pumped into the tank.

2. If they're complicated in that direction, they're likely also designed to deal with water. Run a continuous flow of water - run current through the water, take off (and then concentrate and chill) the hydrogen, discharge the oxygen, and any water remaining flows out along with salt and other unwanted solubles. The effect won't be perfect - you'll get a bit of water vapor in the mix, thus the need for further refining if you want to make your power plant happy.

 

[BytePro]

IMTU.

Fuel is hydrogen (stored cryogenically in liquid form) - obtaining required a generating method or gathering, filtering, separation, what have you.

Unrefined is somewhat akin to crude oil. It burns - but not consistently or well for any given application.

Refined is purified - ala crude oil being refined to gasoline. It 'burns' consistently and well.

The outer layers of GGs usually have clouds composed of water, ammonia and methane (later more so for smaller GGs - or ice giants). So 'scooping' alone does not provide fuel - there is some method of separation and filtering, etc. Fuel refining is a more elaborate process to optimize the fuel.

 

[Dragoner]

IMTU, it is actually the deuterium that is being used by the reactor, unrefined fuel has a lower density percentage (similar to the octane rating in gasoline). I know it's not a perfect analog, but workable enough, and the hydrogen is used for other things as well.

 

[BytePro]

Yeah - I started with deuterium originally - in part because I didn't realize fuel purification plants were optional.