• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.
  • We, the systems administration staff, apologize for this unexpected outage of the boards. We have resolved the root cause of the problem and there should be no further disruptions.

CT Only: Idea for Navy Commandos

jaz0nj4ckal

SOC-12
Happy Holiday folks,
I have been reading a good number of books recently about the Sino-American Cooperative Organization, UDT, Scout Raiders, and Decima Flottiglia MAS.

Due to the latter, I thought it would be cool to add some sort of Special Operation career to the Navy career table. This career would model the actions of the Decima Flottilia MAS, UDT land-based operations in Korea, actions of the Sino-American Cooperative and early DA operations of the TEAMS in 60s.

Has anyone done extensive work on this type of Navy Career? Currently over the holiday – I bashed somethings together, but my character seems odd and doesn’t really standout any different from another career.


  • END is the prime with DEX following

Looking for ideas...

Thanks.
JJ
 
I doubt there would be Naval Commandos per se given the role that the Imperial Marines and their Commandos play.

The Naval Regiment is little more than Ship Troops and Security Forces, like the Shore Patrol, they are often assigned such issues as fire suppression and gunnery back up if there is not boarding party repelling to be done.
 
On the other hand, I think there's room for all sorts of divisions in the military careers. The main inspiration would come from character generation, of course - look at the sorts of skills that can be awarded to Navy characters, and you'll get an idea of what the main divisions could be.
 
I doubt there would be Naval Commandos per se given the role that the Imperial Marines and their Commandos play.

The Naval Regiment is little more than Ship Troops and Security Forces, like the Shore Patrol, they are often assigned such issues as fire suppression and gunnery back up if there is not boarding party repelling to be done.

Both of these depend on the relationship between the Imperial Marines and the Imperial Navy. The continuing existence of the Naval Regiment suggests that the IN desires some form of combat troops under their direct command, distinct from the Marines. It is entirely believable to me that a special operations unit would be formed within the IN, likewise distinct from Marine Commandos. "Navy Commandos" might not be the name of the unit, but it captures the concept sufficiently.

Disclaimer: I really, REALLY like the idea of the Naval Regiment as a force distinct from the Marines. I like the Marines, too; having both makes for a richer setting.
 
Both of these depend on the relationship between the Imperial Marines and the Imperial Navy. The continuing existence of the Naval Regiment suggests that the IN desires some form of combat troops under their direct command, distinct from the Marines. It is entirely believable to me that a special operations unit would be formed within the IN, likewise distinct from Marine Commandos. "Navy Commandos" might not be the name of the unit, but it captures the concept sufficiently.

Disclaimer: I really, REALLY like the idea of the Naval Regiment as a force distinct from the Marines. I like the Marines, too; having both makes for a richer setting.

Maybe some sort of joint task group such as the SEALs in modern Navy?
 
I could see a very specific specops role that the admirals may be loath to give to the Marines-

Planetary Defense Suppression, otherwise known as killing guns that kill ships, The Meson Guns of Navarone.
 
The origin of the Naval Regiment is the Naval Brigade or Naval Division. The idea being that ships that were sunk or put out of action in the course of war but who's crews survived were formed into ground units to plug gaps in the lines or to use their special skills, gunnery and rope rigging, to provide specialist skills to the field army.

On another note...

There is a pattern for a naval commando unit the SURFERs of the pre-civil war Imperial Navy. I'm not sure how canon they are, but they appear in Les Bates "Friends in High Places":

"The armored suit at the base of the tree was the current pattern Marine Recon battledress, but the chamaeleon surface was set to the black and gold parade colors of a unit that had been disbanded centuries ago, the Surface/Extravehicular Reconnaissance force of the Imperial Navy. The SURFER teams, as they commonly known at the time, had been disbanded by the Empress Arbellatra after the Imperial Civil War."
 
Maybe some sort of joint task group such as the SEALs in modern Navy?

The U.S. Special Operations Command was (is?) the joint group overseeing all U.S. military special operations activities, but the individual units (SEALs, Army Special Forces, etc.) belong to and are under the ultimate command of their respective services.

In reality, it is a bit more complicated when you consider that some cross-service recruiting is at least tolerated. Nevertheless, each such unit has a parent service that oversees recruitment, training, advancement, etc. For the SEALs the parent service is the U.S. Navy.

I'm not sure if the 3I would have sufficient incentives to create such a joint command, or if each such unit would operate independently of the others, each under the exclusive* command of their respective parent service.

*Noble authority over the Imperial services (I do not recall a definitive determination as to the existence of such) aside.
 
I see ship's troops/naval regiment more analogous to Starfleet Security.

Ship's Troops as a Marine mission does greatly resemble Starfleet Security's shipboard mission (depending on which incarnation of Trek you are referencing) - shipboard security, boarding actions (offensive and defensive), planetside security, personnel security (high ranking officers and other VIPs within service jurisdiction), etc. Naval Regiment can certainly serve in that mission as well.

However, Starfleet Security is not a significant fighting force of ground troops (again, Trekverse dependent). The Marines are. Naval Regiment sometimes is. Here, the similarity ends.
 
Since several people have hinted at it...

[m;]I am explicitly narrowly waiving the politics rule to allow discussion of the current USN/USMC relationship, and the US Naval Infantry.[/m;]

This is because the specific waivered topic is exemplar for one potential interpretation of the IN/IMC relationships.
 
Ship's Troops as a Marine mission does greatly resemble Starfleet Security's shipboard mission (depending on which incarnation of Trek you are referencing) - shipboard security, boarding actions (offensive and defensive), planetside security, personnel security (high ranking officers and other VIPs within service jurisdiction), etc. Naval Regiment can certainly serve in that mission as well.

However, Starfleet Security is not a significant fighting force of ground troops (again, Trekverse dependent). The Marines are. Naval Regiment sometimes is. Here, the similarity ends.

It's explicit that the Trekverse has a separate surface combatant force - we hear of them in TNG, see them in DS9 and Enterprise, and hear hints in NuTrek...
 
Ir's certainly my take on it for the Solomani.

I've also added a SpaceTrooper branch for the Solomani Army, and Internal Troops of the SolSec, amongst other responsibilities would be customs and border patrol.
 
Since several people have hinted at it...

[m;]I am explicitly narrowly waiving the politics rule to allow discussion of the current USN/USMC relationship, and the US Naval Infantry.[/m;]

This is because the specific waivered topic is exemplar for one potential interpretation of the IN/IMC relationships.

That being said, SEALs are both Navy and Marine with little distinction in the ranks as far as team leaders, specific tasks, etc. That doesn't mean that there aren't any Squid v. Joey bar fights. :) Commando operations call for multi force cooperation and the SEAL team concept is one that will probably carry forward for a long time. And the SEALs pull Naval personnel from all sorts of venues. Since every Marine is an infantryman, that distinction isn't so much a factor.

Sort of like the original Special Forces, the Devil's Brigade, with the elite Ranger Canadians and the convict/rejects US troops.
 
Expanding on my comments above:

(Caveat: I haven't done any recent reading of canonical sources. If you catch me misrepresenting canon, I'll accept correction.)

I see the Naval Regiment as multifaceted.

A. First, and most common, Naval Regiment is a training-and-qualification activity for individual IN service members. (The availability of this training for non-IN personnel is possible. Subsector and planetary naval personnel are likely; megacorp merchant personnel are less likely but not beyond the pale.) This qualification would be more common in some branches than in others. In rough descending order of frequency (Using IN branches from CT High Guard '80):

1. Gunnery
2. Crew/Line
3. Engineering
4. Technical and Medical
5. Flight

Comments on A:
1. I'm not sure if Crew/Line would be closer to Gunnery or Engineering in terms of frequency.
2. Naval Regiment qualification might well be a plus for promotion and command assignments for Line officers at a level of priority beneath the game's level of granularity.
3. Technical and Medical are "too close to call" in terms of relative frequency.
4. Naval Regiment-qualified Flight officers would likely be "player-character rare" (he said intentionally ;)), or close to it.

B. Second would be Naval Regiment units assigned to IN bases, depots, and other facilities. These would provide security and basic naval law enforcement, as well as defensive action in the event of a personnel assault on the facility.

Comments on B: similarities to U.S. Navy Shore Patrol are clear. This function needs to be performed by someone; if not the Marines, then the Naval Regiment is the obvious choice. Splitting the duties, using IN personnel for routine security and law enforcement and Marines for defense, is another possibility. In a politically charged 3I (or area thereof), a separate organization might even be employed for the routine work.

C. Third would be Naval Regiment units assigned as Ship's Troops. The rarity of this kind of unit is due to two factors: the far more common use of Imperial Marine units as Ship's Troops, and the general policy for ships lacking a Marine unit as Ship's Troops to use Naval Regiment qualified crewmembers as ad-hoc boarding parties; this policy is a major driver of the first facet above.

Comments on C: I could see Naval Regiment particularly used in this role on IN transports for Marine units. This eliminates double-tasking of the Marine contingent, freeing up their time for mission preparation, and also eliminates any possible conflicts between the Marine contingent and Marine Ship's Troops.

D. Last would be the Naval Regiment units that exist specifically as ground troops. These do exist, usually due to history and legacy, and are trained and equipped for that mission. Here, I don't see them as heavily invested in meteoric assault as the Marines, but rather making use of high-G landing craft as their primary deployment method. I am inclined to see an even higher use of Battle Dress, up to and including these units being 100% Battle Dress.

Comments on D: The existence of such units is canonical. I do not recall the canonicity of their deployment methods or equippage.

In the context of the above, the existence of an IN special operations unit, under the auspices of the Naval Regiment, is reasonable (though certainly not inevitable). An obvious prerequisite for selection for such a unit would be Naval Regiment qualification, though that qualification could be gained in the initial training for the special operations unit by personnel otherwise suitable and desirable. If cross-service recruiting is occurring, equivalent qualifications from other services would likely be acceptable.

I would see such a unit as smaller in total personnel size than the Marine Commandos, with a distinct mission profile. Their missions would likely be driven by and in support of IN mission priorities, sometimes (often?) in close cooperation with IN Intelligence (even if the latter has their own Operations unit; redundancy is not always wasteful and cooperation can benefit all parties).

Where the above contradicts canon, I am of course in error. Where canon is silent on the above, the above is interpretation and speculation; Your Mileage (and preferences) May Vary.
 
Thank you all for your posts - have me thinking. I guess a special Navy/Marine commando unit be developed that would mirror what/or how the British provide their Navy Seal counterpart – the SBS. From my understanding and from the books I have read – the majority of personnel in the SBS pipeline are from the RMC (Royal Marine Commandos). The latter, would allow the Navy to focus their personnel on ship related duties, while RMC take on more combat related roles.

Translate that into CT – Marines would provide man power for spaceborne combat. Yet – it does bring up the immediate question in my mind – Space Mines… who would disarm them or plant them? In real world – traditionally the role was/is provided by the UDT, which has been phased out and has been taken over by the Navy EOD, which in their own right, I believe is classed as SOC, but I’m not sure.

Traditional role of UDT - conduct hydrographic surveys. The latter is not required for spaceborne operations; however, it does raise the interesting question – are sensors always working and 100% accurate for massive planet landings? Speaking of Trek – would planet surface sensor scans be detected? So can it be argued that a Navy force would scan or conduct a landing survey?

Currently – I have taken an approach of what Australia did with Z special unit. Not part of any branch, but takes applications from all branches, which I call “Unit-9” in my game world. In addition, I have them stationed on a converted cargo ship. Due to the latter, the unit and ship can fly under the radar, and appear as a simple cargo vessel. ++smiles++ idea was inspired by the Atlantic Conveyor used in 1982.
 
Yet – it does bring up the immediate question in my mind – Space Mines… who would disarm them or plant them? In real world – traditionally the role was/is provided by the UDT, which has been phased out and has been taken over by the Navy EOD, which in their own right, I believe is classed as SOC, but I’m not sure.

Space mines large enough to hurt personnel but small enough to leave ships unharmed would be visible to regular sensors, and likely moved aside by repulsors. No specialist necessary.

Space mines large enough to harm ships, well, mine sweeper ships are pretty obvious.

OTOH, if your actual question is about mines used in the close gravity well/upper atmospheric envelop of a planet, that area where sensors would be limited by the planet itself, I present you Battle Dress and grav belts. If the mine is close enough to cause area denial but not visible on ship sensors, then your commandos can sweep them in Battle Dress with grav belts. Equipment and technology and nervy commandos, just like the original UDT teams.
 
May I recommend Yangtse Patrol by rear admiral Kemp Tolley. It details the YangPat over the course of its life.



Happy Holiday folks,
I have been reading a good number of books recently about the Sino-American Cooperative Organization, UDT, Scout Raiders, and Decima Flottiglia MAS.

Due to the latter, I thought it would be cool to add some sort of Special Operation career to the Navy career table. This career would model the actions of the Decima Flottilia MAS, UDT land-based operations in Korea, actions of the Sino-American Cooperative and early DA operations of the TEAMS in 60s.

Has anyone done extensive work on this type of Navy Career? Currently over the holiday – I bashed somethings together, but my character seems odd and doesn’t really standout any different from another career.


  • END is the prime with DEX following

Looking for ideas...

Thanks.
JJ
 
Back
Top