CT Only: Idea for Navy Commandos

[mike wightman]

Another :CoW: from LBB4 is this statement:

CHANGING ARMS OF SERVICE
Enlisted personnel and non-commissioned officers may never change service
except when allowed to do so by crosstraining or commando school. Officers may
change arms of service with the single exception that they may not transfer to
commandoes until after attending Commando School. All changes of arm of service
must be made at the beginning of a term.

Which if taken literally means any officer can choose whichever service arm except commandoes (unless allowed by attending commando school).
So if the interpretation that people have been agreeing with - that cross training in any service/branch is allowed - then this section means an Imperial Army officer could switch to the Imperial Marines (or the Imperial Navy if you allow it). Similarly and Imperial Navy officer could switch to the Imperial Army - pick an MOS - or the Imperial Marines if you consider LBB4 rules to apply in LBB5 if not contradicted.

 

[RandyB]

I've always read those LBB4 and LBB5 statements as self-referential within their respective books as far as RAW goes. But cross-training Naval Infantry with LBB4 skill tables or Marine Flight with LBB5 skill tables is well within Referee's Discretion.

 

[McPerth]

I think the key is the bit I put in bold from LBB4 - I have always taken it to mean an army character can cross train in any MOS branch or even be seconded to the Navy, but not the marines. A marine can be seconded to any MOS or be seconded to the navy. It stands to reason that someone in the navy could be seconded to the army or marine MOS.

I fully disagree with you here. As I expressed, the fact it only excludes the cross-training form Army to marines is due to being another career's specific MOS table, while for the Marines, as they have all the arms and services, they can corss-train to them.

As for this allowing them to cross train in Navy, why should Army do this? (and this aside, form a metagame POV, was LBB5 already in print where this appeared?)

And, once again, let me remember you that in CT you cannot switch careers, while you can specificially change to the branch/arms/service you've cross trained into.

Another :CoW: from LBB4 is this statement:
Which if taken literally means any officer can choose whichever service arm except commandoes (unless allowed by attending commando school).
So if the interpretation that people have been agreeing with - that cross training in any service/branch is allowed - then this section means an Imperial Army officer could switch to the Imperial Marines or the Imperial Navy. Similarly and Imperial Navy officer could switch to the Imperial Army - pick an MOS - or the Imperial Marines.

I'm afraid here we enter on the exact meaning of the words, and here I'm at disadvantage (being no native English speaker), but I understand it diferently than you, maybe due to taint of the Spanish Army naming.

Based in the Spanish Military naming (so, not sure to which point, if at all, it is applicable), the Armed Forces consist of three distinct Forces: the Army, the Navy and the Air Force.

Specifically for the Army, it consists in 4 Arms (Infantry, Cavalry, Arillery and Engineers) and several different Services (Medical, Quartermaster, etc...).

So, when I read Arms of Service, I (maybe wrongly, as I said, I'm at disadvantage here) read Infantry, Cavalry, Artillery and Support (that includes Engineers and Services), not Forces, as would be Army, Marines and Navy, that would be refered as Careers.

As for the Navy and Marines, I guess all of them would be included in the Naval Force, the marines being a different (and separate) Force (as a different Career they are) under Naval command. Nonetheless, I'd accept some intercrossing, as especified in the Military Academy article (JTAS #10, page 29, where it is specifically stated that Marine Officers train in the Naval Accademy, not the Military one) for the Marine Flight Branch, that uses Navy Flight tables.

But as having Naval Infantry, as I understand the Imperium (so, to a point IMTU, or at least in my variant of the OTU), this is exactly what the Marines are, even if considered a separate forcé under Navy overall command.

 

[aramis]

Cross Training in LBB4 is explicitly other arms of the same service, not other services, with the Caveat that Marines can cross train into Army... read as "Huscarls service"...

 

[McPerth]

Cross Training in LBB4 is explicitly other arms of the same service, not other services, with the Caveat that Marines can cross train into Army... read as "Huscarls service"...

As I said, I don't see the Marines cross training in other specialties as training in the army, but in the othrr arms or services of the Marines themselves. After all, Marines have some Armor (Cavalry), as specified in the fact that the Trepidas are described as being used by them (albeit in MT:101 vehicles), Artillery and Support units (incluiding Engineers).

As for the "Huscarls Service", several points:

• if refered to temporary duty in the 4518^th and similar units, I'm not sure they are seen as Army (after all, in FFW they are considered Marines)
• we know the Marines are temporary leased to planetary units, but I doubt this is seen as cross training, as I guess they mostly serve there as cadres and instructors, not as being trained.
• it really should be some assignment that could be considered as this temporary duty (I guess counter insurgency would be the one closer, as most those missions would be performed by planetary units).

Again, allowing them to cross train into other careers branches would allow them to switch careers, something specifically forbiden in CT/MT.

 

[aramis]

The 4518th is treated as marines.
The other red on white are marines. We don't see any other huscarles in the game. They may be wrapped into the various Colonial forces..

I'm hesitant to justify all as marines just because one of the largest Huscarles units is Marines. For all we know, the Count of Jewel might actually have a his wrapped up as one of the regiments of the Jewell Corps... which totals some 100 Bn strengths.

 

[mike wightman]

Here in the UK the Royal Marines sometimes have to train with the Army to learn artillery skills etc. although it is more usual for Army engineers, artillery, logistics etc. to do the commando course and be attached to a Commando and make up the units assigned to 3 Commando Brigade.
The SAS, SBS and SRR are open to applicants from any of the UK services, Army, Navy(Marines are a branch of the Royal Navy), and Air Force, although Navy and Marines will usually opt for the SBS instead.

 

[Selandia]

As pointed previously, Marine's job changed when mass boarding and topmast musketry became obsolete. They kept their landing party job and grew up from it. It extended to "colonial force" in the age of Gunboat Policy and rather than seamen that can shoot but not sail, they became soldiers that were more than human cargo. (You know you are not the cargo when your name appears on the bill of Watch)

Space age and Jump travel dictate a return to special skills and extended strategic delays

In spaceship, 0-G combat require specialy trained troops.

Major power may nowaday deploy within days air transportable small unit (even hours in some case). In Traveller, like in the Gunboat Policy age, the local NOIC must have an organic landing force readily available for anything not at hand is weeks away.

IMHO the TI Marine are the ship's troop but the may be regrouped in whatever size of unit is needed.

have fun

Selandia

 

[jaz0nj4ckal]

Navy(Marines are a branch of the Royal Navy)

I have always been fascinated with the Royal Marines, and always wanted to know if they are viewed or modeled as a separated force of the Navy or party of the Navy. Do they get their own fiscal budget or do they fall under the budget of the Navy? I have noticed or read nothing about their own organic tank capability - and as you pointed out lean on the army units for artillery.

A good number of nations model their Marine force on the Royal Marines and/or USMC; however, in additional to the South Korean Marine Corp and the other two – I think several navies have a marine force, but label it as Naval Infantry, which is just an arm of the Navy and not an entirely separate branch. Yet, per a book I am ready the South Korean Marine Corp was originally designed as a separate branch that got rolled into the navy years later, but I could be wrong.

It could be argued, very few countries need a marine force such as the Royal Marines and/or USMC due to force projection. UK needed a dynamic module force that could be used for force projection over colonial states, which changed after WWII, and gaining Commando status as a rapid response, force projection force for waning colonial rule (Malaya, Borneo, Yemen, etc). However, the same could be said for USMC and force projection after WWII.

But in recent times we are starting to see other navies use Naval Infantry as force projection (Syria), but do not have the distinction between navy and/or a separate fighting force. Also, some nations (Australia, Japan) are taking army units and training them for amphibious capable, yet this goes back to force projection, and I suspect their use will be different from Royal Marines and USMC.

This post has gotten off topic, but ‘oh well’ it is fun…

Let me ask – from members around the world… Are Naval Infantry units of your country view different then how the USMC and/or Royal Marines are viewed? Both in capability and prestige?

 

[Condottiere]

Water's everywhere, it depends on whether the military/political establishments consider it worthwhile to have a body of troops being specially trained to operate around, under and/or on bodies of water.

Space going polities have to recognize that the void is all around them; at the very least, they'll have paramilitary law enforcement SWAT teams trained to operate there.

 

[McPerth]

Let me ask – from members around the world… Are Naval Infantry units of your country view different then how the USMC and/or Royal Marines are viewed? Both in capability and prestige?

AFAIK, the Spanish equivalent (the Tercio de Armada) is not an independent corps, but fully dependent on the Spanish Navy.