Imperial Army Craft

[Garyius2003]

What ships, miscellaneous platforms, and landing craft does the Imperial Army operate?

I know that the GURPS book for Traveller, Ground Forces, strongly hinted that the Army operates huge landing craft.

I also know a little bit about the United States Army in real life, and less about their watercraft operations. The US Army operates everything from small landing craft, hardly twice as large as the ones used during World War II, that can ground up on the beach, to large seagoing ships which theoretically could ground on a beach, but more commonly attached to piers. The US Army also operates everything from tugboats, machine shops, floating piers, and offshore petroleum pumping stations– through the latest ultra high-speed transports which are capable of sprinting within a theater of operations while carrying an entire battalion.

The US Army is also very interesting, in that its ships are officered and captained by career warrant officers who remain in the watercraft operations area for their entire career. Due to recent changes in the pay scale, a potential advancement for such an officer is to the five level, approximately equivalent to a major’s pay and benefits.

Obviously a separate officer track is unlikely to occur in the Imperial Army, because the need for such craft is so huge in such a huge army that a separate branch probably exists. I do think it very likely, however, that the Army operates many of the same type of craft.

I think we can break down the Imperial Army need for ships and craft to approximately five (or perhaps six) types.

A high port equivalent. This would be modular, and assembled in orbit to allow everything from command and control, to basing the aerospace fighters and landing craft, to most importantly transshipping cargo from leased freighters to be landed to the planet’s surface. This platform, through modular additions, probably includes the capacity to engage in heavy maintenance, much as barges provide this service in the current armed forces.

An ammunition high port depot. In the current armed forces, there is usually some physical effort to separate ammo handling from other cargo and passengers. I would expect that to continue in a combat operations area.

Orbital artillery platforms. Either modular satellites, or heavily armed and armored craft equipped for fast flyby operations, or probably a combination of the two. I could see a 100 or 200 ton boat with light capacity being commanded by a staff noncommissioned officer, while a several thousand ton overpowered bombardment vessel is probably a highly sought after dashing assignment for a mid ranking officer.

Aerospace interception and defense, and ground attack. This would combine the current Air Force operations into the ground army. Given that the maximum size is probably 50 tons but the ships themselves are very dashing and cool, I would expect low ranking officers to operate them.

Landing craft proper. Everything from 20 ton gigs used as hacks, or to haul general officers around-- through 5000 ton heavily armed and armored Assault Landers. I can see the gig being operated by a corporal or sergeant, and the 5000 ton lander being commanded by a major or lieutenant colonel.

Troop transports and cargo vessels. I think there are two ways that the 3I can address the need for jump capable vessels. The first is to have the Navy operate them. The second is for the Army to do it. Given the wide range of sizes, anything from a 200 ton courier to a 1,000,000 ton corps level base ship, there’s a chance that the Army has a fleet as huge as the entire Zho Navy.

I welcome any comments or debate---and any better ideas.

 

[aramis]

GT:GF not withstanding, we have some significant examples of the "Rapid Deployment System" vehicles in both MT and TNE.

Imperial troops at TL 15 use the Trepida, Astrin, and a 3rd related frame; all of these fit a standard berth interchangeably. (The Astrin with surplus room.)

We know that these craft often deploy from orbit, and that they accompany drop troops, as well.

The Trepida is a heavy tank (Rapid Pulse Fusion, Laser, and VRF Gauss gun!) (MT RebSB p86)
The Astrin is an armed infantry transport, carrying 10 combat ready troops. (MT RebSB p87)
The Astrin, like the old M113, has numerous non-troop variants. (Cite: Striker II)
The third hull is a fixed hull extension rather than a turret. It was missile armed, IIRC.

The Voroshilev Battleship carries 200 troops, and has 5 shuttles. It could easily deploy them on only 2 of those shuttles... (MT RebSB p82).

Fighting Ships includes a transport.

 

[Captain Midnight]

What ships, miscellaneous platforms, and landing craft does the Imperial Army operate?

There's some fuzziness about how you might count a grav tank -- after all, it can orbit or de-orbit on its own. The performance of other craft may be important as well, and there can also be some COACC overlap as well.

I think we can break down the Imperial Army need for ships and craft to approximately five (or perhaps six) types.

A high port equivalent. This would be modular, and assembled in orbit to allow everything from command and control, to basing the aerospace fighters and landing craft, to most importantly transshipping cargo from leased freighters to be landed to the planet’s surface. This platform, through modular additions, probably includes the capacity to engage in heavy maintenance, much as barges provide this service in the current armed forces.

I can see arguments for keeping your command elements in orbit where nobody can get at them easily, but I can also envision situations where it might be more practical to put them groundside as well. You're going to have to have space-based communications, obviously, and shirtsleeve conditions for heavy maintenance would be useful. It might be more practical to do it dirtside... but it might not, especially if you're operating on a world that has unbreathable atmosphere.

An ammunition high port depot. In the current armed forces, there is usually some physical effort to separate ammo handling from other cargo and passengers. I would expect that to continue in a combat operations area.

Energy weapons will cut a lot of your ammo requirements, and gauss needles generally don't explode. That's not to say that high-tech ground forces won't have lots of explosives around, but there will be less than TL8 weaponry might lead you to expect.

Orbital artillery platforms. Either modular satellites, or heavily armed and armored craft equipped for fast flyby operations, or probably a combination of the two. I could see a 100 or 200 ton boat with light capacity being commanded by a staff noncommissioned officer, while a several thousand ton overpowered bombardment vessel is probably a highly sought after dashing assignment for a mid ranking officer.

Depends on the nature of the artillery; meson sleds are the ultimate standoff weapon, for example. They're also pretty brutal on the terrain around the target, if you care. Missiles of the "brilliant" varieties can be invaluable, too. Smallish ships won't be as useful -- after all, it's not like a 100-ton craft can pack more weapons than a 15-ton fighter, but it's certainly more expensive.

Aerospace interception and defense, and ground attack. This would combine the current Air Force operations into the ground army. Given that the maximum size is probably 50 tons but the ships themselves are very dashing and cool, I would expect low ranking officers to operate them.

COACC is generally defensive, as I recall, so the Army would probably have some offensive capability. I haven't looked at my MT COACC sourcebook in years, but I remember it gave specific rules for aircraft, and as I recall, they were only marginally more capable than standard fighters.

Landing craft proper. Everything from 20 ton gigs used as hacks, or to haul general officers around-- through 5000 ton heavily armed and armored Assault Landers. I can see the gig being operated by a corporal or sergeant, and the 5000 ton lander being commanded by a major or lieutenant colonel.

I'd think an Assault Lander that large would probably be putting too many of your eggs in one basket; I'd personally be nervous about putting more than a company inside a hull that can be taken out with a single hit.

Troop transports and cargo vessels. I think there are two ways that the 3I can address the need for jump capable vessels. The first is to have the Navy operate them. The second is for the Army to do it. Given the wide range of sizes, anything from a 200 ton courier to a 1,000,000 ton corps level base ship, there’s a chance that the Army has a fleet as huge as the entire Zho Navy.

Given the lack of canon support for a jump-capable (and the interesting opportunity for interservice dynamics), I'd expect the basic dividing line of "Just about anything with a jump drive is Navy" to be Imperial practice. Then again, it isn't strictly contradicted, either, so you could make a case for it if you want it in your game.

 

[LordVince]

If you allow for the stategy of "Marines TAKE the real estate, the Army HOLDS it", then there might be SOME similarity in ship types needed by the two Services -- and I agree that only the Navy would be operating the jump-capable vessels -- with Marine Transports and Army Transports being almost identical.

That said, I would also say that the Marines would have a greater need for Assault and Combat Support type vessels, while the Army would focus a little more on Logistical and Occupation type vessels.

For example, a Marine "Assault Lander" would be designed to be a maneuverable craft that rapidly enters a Theater Of Operations, blast clear a landing zone, make a hot landing, discharge it's Marine contingent, then lift off and make a hasty exit from the T.O.O., to go get more Marines. It would have light/medium weaponry designed for short-term "in-passing" support of ground units.

An Army "Assault Lander" would be a heavy-armoured vessel designed to drop down into the T.O.O., blast a CRATER for a landing zone, settle down IN said crater, then shut down flight operations and become a Firebase from which it's Army contingent mounts indirect-fire supported operations, as well as acting a base for air and armor units in the T.O.O.. basically, a Mobile Fortification.

 

[flykiller]

if a navy doesn't control a given star system, will it take the risk of landing troops?

if a navy does control a given star system, can any army on any insystem planet last very long?

is there anything an army does that marines and overhead fire support can't?

 

[aramis]

if a navy doesn't control a given star system, will it take the risk of landing troops?

Depends. A system is huge, from a tactical perspective.

If there are surface to orbit defenses that can be neutralized by landing marines, I can't see why they wouldn't. Likewise, eliminating ships under repair is best done by capture. It's possible to be over a week away from other worlds at 6G.

if a navy does control a given star system, can any army on any insystem planet last very long?

They only have to control a given world's immediate space, not the whole system.

is there anything an army does that marines and overhead fire support can't?

Yes: Massive long term troop emplacement.

Given the canonical hints that the army is local formations placed into imperial service (5Fw, Invasion Earth, Striker II, Rebellion Sourcebook), the army is a collection of coherent units to be deploy...

Marines, however, are first and foremost ships' troops, based upon CT/MT sources. Their units tend to be smaller, not "localized", and ready reaction forces. I figure that the largest permanent marine units are likely to be regiments... assigned across a batron.

But Invasion Earth scales to the Battalion, and has regiments (and larger, IIRC) Imp Marine units... drop troops.

 

[deniable]

Most of what I remember (including GT:GF) seems to indicate that the Marines take worlds while the Army holds and polices worlds. The Army is either on its own world or it's doing low intensity operations on other worlds. To me this indicates that the army needs freighters and troop transports rather than assault ships.

 

[mbrinkhues]

Marines not serving as ship security are the Emperors "Personal Goontroopers" employed to smash a little Rebellion, nuke a wayward government, raid a facility in a neighboring nation and do other jobs that require a few brutal persons. At least that's the version shown in TNE with the Marines using high-firepower, heavy battledress and being quite free with Meson guns, Orbital strikes and lots of nuclear weapons, even on their few APCs. GT shows similar equipment and tactics in "Ground Forces". Marines are "Peacemakers". Like the well-known application from Colt. They lack the logistics and staying power for anything past that. OTOH they have permanently attached transport ships and can be deployed on the Emperors whim.

The Army is there for methodically pacifing a planet and keeping peace, the tool of the diplomats. They have lots of bodies on the ground, far fewer of the high-maintenance Battledress, far more and variant vehicles, more selective weapons and a lot less nukes. Where a Marine unit drops a nuke or Orbital Meson beam in the general direction of an enemy ATGM team(taking out the whole hamlet) the Army sends a spotter and then fires a precision guided SUNBURST and takes out only HALF of the hamlet. The Army does have central command and unified equipment but unlike the "single TL" Marines it exists on multiple levels (TL9, TL12 and TL14/15 IIRC). It takes more time to mobilise and load since few army units have permanently attached transport(1). Army units are far less likely to "drop in" on a still fight-capabel planet

Both can take a beachhead (or should that be Planethead?) but only the Army can take and hold a planet.

================================

From the description in TNE the Marines rarely use anything past a heavily armed IFV/APC and a very few "assault guns" based on the same frame. The Army OTOH deploys the classical stuff with medium (Trepinda/Intrepid) and heavy (Imperial) grav tanks, APC's, artillery and all. Also Army units are bigger than Marine units and have a worse teeth to tail ratio.

That and the difference in deployment means that the army needs larger transport ships capabel of carrying heavy loads(2) but with less individual firepower since the lengthy assembly/loading time allows for naval assets to assembel. An army unit on occupation or garrison duty(3) can expect to be without their transport assets since they are not permanently assigned, forcing them to rely more on COAAC forces and/or SBD's. From that I get:

• Heavy transport ships capabel of shipping a batallion of mechanised infantry or tanks including ample supplies
• Some "jeep carriers" to bring in fighters, COAAC craft and SDB. They don't need the "rapid launch" capabilities of a true carrier
• A few assault transports in case the army can't waste<<<<<use a Marine unit to secure the landing. These will carry heavy landing craft
• Mid-sized logistics craft, often hired/mobilised freighters to keep the units supplied
• Naval assets to support the landing. Quite often elder warships or specialised designs like the Huron

(1) Neither do they need it, most army units will never leave their homeworld
(2) TNE does take weight into consideration once it reaches a certain level, IIRC 15xdisplacement in tons
(3) Occupation duty is garrison duty where your choice of hookers is more limited

 

[veltyen]

What ships, miscellaneous platforms, and landing craft does the Imperial Army operate?

That really depends on how you slice the services.

If you take the line that the Imperial Army isn't a monolithic service, but instead are raised on a system by system basis, and that the designation "Imperial" just means that they can be borrowed in times of need, then that question is very highly dependent on the technology and culture of each individual system.

That's the model I use IMTU, with some standardisation due to imperial subsidy and shared design.

When it comes down to it it depends on what you use the Army for. IMTU the army is only really used off world for internal pacification, defensive reinforcement and the occasional invasion.

Defensive reinforcement has very simple needs, there is (unless your timing is very poor) no one shooting at you when you come in system, or try to disembark troops. Any space capable vehicles would be limited to anti-space defensive weaponry, and sensor vehicles.

Internal pacification and invasion are functionally the same task. Both require a beachhead element, to create a landing area and neautralise any anti-space weaponry. This is one of the few specialist tasks that the marines are built for, and whenever possible is performed by them. Otherwise it falls on a badly coordinated assault done by the army and navy combined.

I think we can break down the Imperial Army need for ships and craft to approximately five (or perhaps six) types.

A high port equivalent. This would be modular, and assembled in orbit to allow everything from command and control, to basing the aerospace fighters and landing craft, to most importantly transshipping cargo from leased freighters to be landed to the planet’s surface. This platform, through modular additions, probably includes the capacity to engage in heavy maintenance, much as barges provide this service in the current armed forces.

Shouldn't this be a naval facility? If nearly all anti-space weaponry has been neutralised then the transport squadron would have one of its ships doing this duty. If rebels on the ground can still shoot upwards, then any facility of this type would be a sitting duck.

An ammunition high port depot. In the current armed forces, there is usually some physical effort to separate ammo handling from other cargo and passengers. I would expect that to continue in a combat operations area.

Subject to the same problem as before. If its in the air it can be shot from the ground.

Taking a modern beachhead as an example. Blue water is safe enough for blue water vessels. Land is safe enough for ground operations. On the beach, where you can be shot both by snipers in the scrub and by passing patrol boats isn't really a good place to hang around.

To continue the analogy, you want the depot to be either in far orbit (deep water) or on the ground (above the high tide mark).

Orbital artillery platforms. Either modular satellites, or heavily armed and armored craft equipped for fast flyby operations, or probably a combination of the two. I could see a 100 or 200 ton boat with light capacity being commanded by a staff noncommissioned officer, while a several thousand ton overpowered bombardment vessel is probably a highly sought after dashing assignment for a mid ranking officer.

A mid ranking naval officer certainly. I am pretty sure that bombardment cruisers are generally considered a Navy toy.

The small sensor system with a couple of thor systems I can see certainly. They need to be cheap enough to lose them regularly, but the orbital recon that doesn't rely on naval cooperation and the occasional strategic strike from above wouldn't go astray.

Aerospace interception and defense, and ground attack. This would combine the current Air Force operations into the ground army. Given that the maximum size is probably 50 tons but the ships themselves are very dashing and cool, I would expect low ranking officers to operate them.

Aerospace command certainly. Mostly light fighters depending on numbers, with the occasional true gunship in a heavier class. Fast attack sleds and the like also fit in this category, in fact the two classes kind of blur.

At the other end of the spectrum is the ground based missile, laser and meson anti-space artillery vehicles.

Landing craft proper. Everything from 20 ton gigs used as hacks, or to haul general officers around-- through 5000 ton heavily armed and armored Assault Landers. I can see the gig being operated by a corporal or sergeant, and the 5000 ton lander being commanded by a major or lieutenant colonel.

I don't see the army having any dedicated assault landers. Smaller ground to orbit and ground to ground transports I can see though, basically just the logistics tail, with the occasional faster and armed officer transport.

The army in most of its existence would be a defensive force. Apart from maybe a dummy to practice against I wouldn't see them having any particular need while doing home defense or even long term garrison for such a vessel.

Troop transports and cargo vessels. I think there are two ways that the 3I can address the need for jump capable vessels. The first is to have the Navy operate them. The second is for the Army to do it. Given the wide range of sizes, anything from a 200 ton courier to a 1,000,000 ton corps level base ship, there’s a chance that the Army has a fleet as huge as the entire Zho Navy.

Three ways: have a dedicated organisation set up to perform beachheads.

I welcome any comments or debate---and any better ideas.

I guess it all depends on the role you see the IA as having.

I don't see the IA as that agile, more as a lumbering hammer, or perhaps a better analogy a heavy fire blanket to smother problems.

IMTU the Marines are the primary interface specialists. As such they operate the combat landing vessels, planetary beachhead along with ship defense and base defense are the roles that Marines play.

As such there are groups of Marines on standby. Either in sleeper service or waiting hot. These are stationed coordinated with planetary assault squadrons - which generally consist of a number of jump capable transports along with cruiser class escorts and other support vessels such as bombardment cruisers or oilers.

I use generally a quite large scale for these, you are trying to pacify a planet after all.

The Marines vessels consist of fast and slow drop vessels. Depending on how hot the landing is they may need to cruise across half a system after being dropped off. The fast vessels are assault landers - medium size, very fast, aerodynamic, agile and heavily armed - but carry sod all troops. The slow vessels are known as drop fortress, and their purpose is to keep a toehold until the transports come back with the army, they are lumbering but moderately armoured and generally have a decent capacity. These are used as semi mobile bases after landing.

The planetary assault squadron then goes and gets packed full of army troops and supplies, from whatever system it is logical to do so. In this case they don't need any landing vessels, as those already are at the destination. They drop the army on the destination world using the Marines transports, reload the Marines and go back to a standby position (or on to the next conquest...)

The only problem with this is that it relies on close coordination between all three branches, which may or may not be believable.

 

[flykiller]

if a navy does control a given star system, can any army on any insystem planet last very long?

They only have to control a given world's immediate space ....

can they? can an army hold back a navy and its invasion force?

maybe mostly a ruleset question, but if one army is supported by an overhead navy and a second army isn't, I just can't see the second army lasting very long. I'd suggest that when the naval actions are decided then the ground actions are decided too.

for occupation duty, yes, an army is needed - but the primary combat would be long over, so the term "occupation force" rather than "army" might give a better lead on what it should consist of.

IMTU the Marines are the primary interface specialists.

(laugh)

 

[aramis]

Flykiller: You're twisting (intentional or not) what I said.

The Navy need only control the immediate space around the world, not the whole system.

The Army is immaterial to that; a world is successfully interdicted if the navy controls access through 100diameters.

An army could, in theory, include sufficient coaac and plandef weapons to be a threat to space naval vessels. Invasion Earth shws that they do exist in the OTU ca 990.

 

[Maccat]

Qualifiers, I use CT and some T4 (especially pocket empires).

Agree a lot about a lot of this depends on how one sees the imperial (or other for that matter!) army, this ties in with big ship/little ship, few ship/many ship, stong/weak Imperium, so very likely a buncha different takes on this. That said, my take on it:

Book 4, esp mercs it being heaven for them, lotsa "little" wars, often megacorp/private/noble, key aspect regarding the TL where grav vehicles/aircraft/small craft essentially merge, use small craft as heavy grav vehicles/tanks. I definitely see a place for Artillery mounted on small/larger ships, say a Battery of heavy mass drivers (I even did a work up converting HG missile bays to Hvy/Med MDs, which leads to 1kt+ ships). I like 1kt max aerodynamic, a few mentions of bases having that as max landing capability. Pocket Empires has a big need for a big garrison/"peacekeeping" force on a conquerred (or rebelling, hmm) world. I've always bought the Imperium mainly focusing on Interstellar Space Control, limiting weaponry even (no nukes, other than our Imperial forces, of course!) in favor of Trade, to overcome the long night.
There's a strong emphasis on the Imperial Marines being the response and force of choice for reaction. Said LBB4 many more local/merc forces on worlds, and quite large forces at that (many divisions/armies). I could see an Imperial Army proper, but rather limited overall. They would have nukes, and likely use them if neccessary. A lot of artillery (mostly because i favor that lol). Main use would be as a pacification/peacekeeping force on Imperial war conquered worlds (say Zho-Imp nth interstellar war, no?), but would likely serve as a command "core", nuke controller/owner, with the majority of forces involved being likely merc/some kind of drafted planetary/subsector forces (great amount of Cadre/cooperative tasks). I see a strong place for say a Duke's subsector army, with imperial blessing as it were, to keep the "peace" within "his" (and the Imperium's) (sub)sector. Or maybe even MegaCorp "security forces" at large force size, riding in on multikt freighter/passenger lines lol.
So there'd be a bunch of Imperial Army liason-officer types, to have chain of command and nuke authority, I'd see lotsa forward observer (Meson fire control...), Artillery (nuke delivery!) focus also. Interesting would be if the Imperial Army would maintain control of planetary defense batteries, likely to my mind especially nuke/meson, which are disallowed if non-Imperial. Again though, probably an Imperial in overall command authority with the manning subbed out to subsector/planet forces. Gotta include an Imperial Calender Compliance Auditing section for that matter too lol. Deployment would be to recently conquered (extrenal) and/or rebelling (internal) worlds. These would be the guys mop up and clean up the mess the marines made in their overwhelming response to a threat to trade of a subject world, hm? Probably a nightmare task as the forces they use would each have their own agendas, megacorps for locking up the industries n trade, nobles for land control and tax authority, mercs living off the middle, to say nothing of "national" interests, it helps there being one world governments frequently. When not deployed, where are they? Maybe balkanized worlds as useful for what they will face when deployed.
So for the vehicles sure they'd have grav tanks (HG small craft equivalent) 1kt missile bay/MD arty, need 6x for a battery i might add, APCs for widespread deployment (said peace/passification), probable heavy on command/control/liason type vehicles, with dedicated Imperial troop security forces for that. mayyybe a dedicated 1kt nuclear missile resupply heavily armored "bunker" ship. I'd argue only Imperial Army proper troops would guard the nuclear missiles/launch facilities, but could be argued. Grav tanks/small craft would be fighter equivalent. How SDBs fit in this i'd have to think on that (as SDBs are often nuclear sub-like, deep ocean deployment, that would fit as an assignment as is a planet-based "defense" force). With much liason activity, would have presence on a lot of worlds, but small interfacing groups with planetary forces. There would very likely be dedicated courier/transport starships.
Interesting thread and hope my comments are useful somehow to it.

 

[flykiller]

Flykiller: You're twisting (intentional or not) what I said.

hm. thought I was addressing the question.

An army could, in theory, include sufficient coaac and plandef weapons to be a threat to space naval vessels.

if it does then I don't know if that qualifies as "army". build a vehicle with a factor 1 meson gun and you wind up with a substandard sdb, so why not build a real one? and fixed planetary defense operations definitely boils down to a subset of navy combat sensor rules, as has been discussed elsewhere, so Garyius2003 will have to specify his ruleset. in any case if planetary defenses sufficient to threaten a fleet exist then I'm not sure that any army can be landed at all.

Invasion Earth shws that they do exist in the OTU ca 990.

yes, but how they exist and function beyond an abstraction is unclear.

 

[flykiller]

on this subject, it's interesting to consider just how big the invading army is. how many ships can the imperial navy have - what yards are available, what can they build, how many of each ship can they build, what can be paid for? then consider how much of this hull space can be devoted to hauling around troops and their equipment (lowberths? staterooms? equipment lockers? deployment vessels? hospitals? maintenance shops? maintenance/recovery vehicles?), and what the capacities for each will be. this will determine how big an army can be fielded - assuming it's all in the same area of course. so, is the fielded army in the local area big enough to do the job envisioned? don't forget, if the target world knows what's coming and decides to resist and has time to prepare, the incoming army could be facing a very substantial homegrown force that doesn't have transportation issues.

 

[Maccat]

I tend to agree with the Imperium Navy controls space (100d if that floats your boat, otherwise *all* space as i prefer), has the nukes, and will/does use them if things get out of hand, that Marines are the primary arm of ground troops for the Imperium, being smaller and more readily transported, well suited to occupying and controlling a starport and/or capitol. As I see it the Marines are the "hand", the Army the "face". Army as my prev post uses, agreed as "occupation force" in someones earlier post, and there specifically is a need for that in occupied worlds whether conquered or "quelled" "rebellion".
Because there's a lot about it being far-flung and impossible to manage, communication speed limits, focus on interstellar trade (and the interstellar Navy as that arm), focus on "subcontracting out" even army forces for the merc justification, or subsector navies for that matter, I think the liason/control of nukes aaporach works, also as an Imperiumification force. There's some blurb i can't recall where about the Imperium seldom acts unless interstellar trade (tithes anyone?) is/are disrupted, and then if it does it is with overwhelming (and brutal) force. Like Imperial Army APC forces prowling the streets of a recently conquered world: "This planet is now under the jurisdiction of the Imperium! The Imperium Welcomes (blank) to the Imperial fold! All citiznes are requested to get their Imperial Identification within 3 days, Those that do not will be deported to Imperial Prison World (blank). Have a Nice Day, and Congratulations on joining our great Imperium" And lotsa laser sight designators on everyones forheads, houses, up to you to determine if it's a "regular" arty round or a nuke they're targeting.
lol and yeah they would be Imperial Prison World garrisons for sure i'd say.

 

[jec10]

Its interesting. Most of the large "Armies" on present-day Terra field their own watercraft and rotorcraft, distinct from the navy and air force. The US Army definitely does as the original poster noted. The Chinese PLA and the Russian Army both do.

For all the wonders of jointery, it seems that people in green still prefer to have their own dedicated assets if they can. They are always on call, they train with you when it suits you, and they share your organisational imperatives. In the 52nd Century it may well be that the Army prefers to have an in-house force of small craft and minor warships to fulfil tasks.

 

[flykiller]

For all the wonders of jointery, it seems that people in green still prefer to have their own dedicated assets if they can.

as I understand it ...

when the korean war started the newly created u.s. air force said that all aircraft should be placed under air force command, since they were the air force. their request was granted, and the army and marines lost control of all their aircraft. consequently when they called for ground support the air force answered something along the lines of, "we're a strategic asset, we don't do ground support", and they left the army and marines sitting in the dirt. the troops have never forgotten this, and that is why the army deals in helicopters so much and why the marines cling so hard to the harrier - they know the air force has no use for these aircraft and so won't take them away again.

again, as I understand it, and I believe it.

that same situation is playing itself out today. everyone has an unmanned aerial recon vehicle program, and the duplication of effort is wasting lots of money. the air force has requested that all uav programs be given to them, saying that this will save money and because, again, "we're the air force". all the other services are protesting loudly, saying that if the air force gets control of these things then "when a ground commander requests a uav he'll get an email back saying, 'thank you for contacting the u.s. air force uav distribution center, we'll get back to you in 36-48 hours.'"

and this I know is true.

 

[deniable]

You're looking for the Key West Agreement. [1] This set the 'rules' for who got the aviation assets. Around the same time you had the cancellation of USS United States and the attempted transfer of Marine aviation to the Air Force. This resulted in the revolt of the Admirals. [2] The fall-out of this was that the Army didn't get armed fixed wing aircraft. Armed helicopters caused friction later. The Navy and Marines were allowed to keep their aircraft for support of 'naval' operations and the Air Force got the rest. Then again, I could have my history wrong.

Getting back to the OTU, COACC for MT provides a bit more information on the division of the forces. You have an Army and a Navy. The split is at 110 diameters. The Marines are part of the Navy. The Wet Navy and COACC (Air Force) are part of the Army. This is usually how I play it. The Army is a composite force for security operations on Imperial and conquered worlds.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_West_Agreement
[2]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolt_of_the_Admirals

 

[BlackBat242]

In Korea, the US Navy & Marines found a simple way around USAF control of air assets... carriers.

For the first few months, all USN/USMC combat aircraft were operating from carriers, thus they were assigned missions, armed, refueled, repaired, etc where the USAF couldn't touch them. F4F-5/AU-1 Corsairs, AD Skyraiders, F2H Banshees, F9F Panthers, etc all flew the missions the USN/USMC ordered.

As the war progressed, and more airfields were opened up, some squadrons moved to land... where the USAF tried real hard to control them.

But don't think for a minute the USAF said "we don't do ground support"... F-51 (P-51) Mustangs, F-80 Shooting Stars & F-84 Thunderjets all flew many ground-attack missions from the start of the war until its end. The F-84E and the later F-84G flew a total of 86,400 ground attack sorties and delivered 55,897 tons of bombs.

 

[mbrinkhues]

Given the relatively small number of warships in the Traveller Universe (as of MT:Rebellion SB) that will operate in squadrons and fleets during a war thus reducing their number even further, aquiring some space defence / COAAC forces of their own should be first priority for the army. Having a battleship squadron around is nice but if that is your ONLY defence and it is suddenly needed elsewhere...

I see low-grade Meson sleds (Canon ImpArmy equipment as of MT and TNE), missile sleds and light forces up to and including heavy SDB/light battleriders like the Seydlitz similar to the assault guns or mortars that where part of an Infantry Unit in WWII. Not the best thing possibel but a thing that would always be yours and that you can make part of any plan for offence or defence.