Imperial Marines and "Small Wars"

[Whipsnade]

Gentlemen,

Very intriguing thread. I think it suffers from a limited scope however. Our cultural blinders are showing again. We're talking about 'robots' in combat, but just what is a 'robot'?

Mull these points over for a while:
- A torpedo is a 'robot'.
- A missile is a 'robot'.
- A shell with a proximity fuse is a 'robot'.

Sure, they are all 'one-use' items, but they meet the basic description of a 'robot'. They are all machines that perform tasks independent of human control. The torpedo runs at the depth, at the speed, and along the course it has been told to. A proximity fuse even 'decides' when to explode. Ditto to both for a missile.

So what is a 'robot'? Something with legs? Something that looks vaguely like an animal? Or is it something that performs task independently of active human control?

Most of the suggestions tossed around here have had to do with arms, legs, treads, torsos, and whatnot. We've been thinking about animal-shaped devices that perform a narrow range of functions; bipeds with guns, hexapeds with guns, crawlers with guns, etc. Why handicap a machine in that fashion? It can be more and do more.

In the Real World, the US is currently using various airborne sensor drones and some of them are armed. Last year, we potted some rat bastard in Yemen with the weapons aboard a drone. The drone spotted the car, the drone targeted the Hellfire missile, the drone even guided the missile in for a hit. All the human 'operator' did was 'allow' the drone to fire the missile. Was that a drone on patrol in Yemen or was it a 'robot'?

My last ship, USS California CGN-36, carried two Phalanx CIWS units. Human 'control' of these anit-missile 20mm gatling guns was rather simple; the 'operator' had an off/on switch. When energized, the CIWS would target ANYTHING(1) fitting certain parameters within a few nautical miles of the ship and shoot it down. It selected targets, it fired on targets, it 'decided' when targets were no longer a threat, and it switched to other targets. Is the CIWS a weapon system or is it a 'robot'?

I think many 'warbots' are in use in the Third Imperium. I think many 'warbots' are in use now. I also think we fail to recognize them AS 'warbots'! In the 57th Century, robots are everywhere; "Robots Are Toasters" and "Robots Are Not Tin Men". They are ubiquitous and beneath notice - like mailboxes and telephone poles. Just as your 2004 coffee maker has more of a 'computer' in it than the 1969 Lunar Excursion Module, I beleive that systems in the 57th Century will be more 'robotic' than we imagine.


Sincerely,
Larsen

1 - Sea stories have poorly programmed CIWS units shredding unfortunate seagulls by mistake.

 

[flykiller]

Mull these points over for a while:
- A torpedo is a 'robot'.
- A missile is a 'robot'.
- A shell with a proximity fuse is a 'robot'.

Sure, they are all 'one-use' items, but they meet the basic description of a 'robot'. They are all machines that perform tasks independent of human control.

(good to see you back larsen, I was starting to wonder where you went.) by that definition a mousetrap is a robot - but of course it isn't. and putting a CPU in a toaster doesn't make it a robot, it just makes it a glorified toaster. glorified toasters and robots share some things in common, but that doesn't mean they are the same thing, any more than a rabbit is a cat.

a robot does three things: it moves around, it implements decision algorithms, and it manipulates a changing environment (and no, exploding doesn't count as manipulation). a machine that moves around in your house, finds dirty and clean socks no matter where they are dropped, sorts them by clean and dirty, and puts them in the wash or a drawer, would be called a robot.

 

[Vargas]

Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:

1 - Sea stories have poorly programmed CIWS units shredding unfortunate seagulls by mistake.

I was once told by a person who interviewed at RCA (back then) that the first time they turned on the Aegis radar system, it picked up so many objects, including insects, that it crashed shortly thereafter.

Do with that what you will.

 

[Whipsnade]

Flykiller wrote:

"A robot does three things: it moves around, it implements decision algorithms, and it manipulates a changing environment (and no, exploding doesn't count as manipulation)."


Mr. Gilliam,

Okay, I'll accept that as a starting premise.

"A machine that moves around in your house, finds dirty and clean socks no matter where they are dropped, sorts them by clean and dirty, and puts them in the wash or a drawer, would be called a robot."

Try this twist; rather than an independent machine that hunts for socks within a house, how about a house that hunts for socks within itself? Is it a house? Or is it a robot?

There's that chapter towards the end of Ray Bradbury's 'Martian Chronicles', the house that continues following its programming despite that fact that humanity is dead. It sets the table, produces meals, reads poetry, announces appointments, and so on. It even attempts to fight the fire that eventually destroys it. It is pretty stupid too, because feeding the dog wasn't one of its jobs it allows the poor beast to starve to death. Tell me, is that dwelling a house or is it a robot?

Also, what do you think of the MT descriptions of robot ops skill? Boiled down, it states that anyone can use a robot, but those with the skill can use the robot and its skills package more effectively.


Sincerely,
Larsen

P.S. Congratulations on your recent Deckplans Contest victory!

 

[clementk]

Originally posted by Aramis:
The term mecha has multiple layers of meaning. Mecha Anime specifically means "Giant Robot" anime. AD Tank police isn't Mecha Anime, any more than Urusei Yatsura is. Yes, both feature mechanical fighting machines (UY in just a few episodes), but the term "Mecha" has come to mean "Large transformable, hominid, or animaloid combat vehicles."

I find your definitions too narrow. For one thing combat vehicles only. Patlabor has many cargo labors as well as military and police versions. Heavy Gears started as cargo gears that had armor and weapons added to them. AD Police IIRC from the first OVAs has larger piloted robots and at the least is a spinoff of Bubblegum Crisis which has powered suits and robots (manned or not) of various sizes, as well as combat walkers. If you meant Dominion Tank Police (another Shirow work though more comedic than most of his stories) it has again a range of mecha including small landmates to huge grav spider/crab gun platforms. And even though Battletech's Locust mech originated in the "non-Mecha Anime" (by your definition) Crusher Joe as the Ostall it would be considered a mecha under your definition.

Even the original Gundam series had mecha "drones" and fighters.

Mecha gmes, as a genre, are specifically the giant robot kind... with ginant being relative (DP 9's Gears being 3-6m, Battletech's being 6-15m, Robotech's being inetween those extremes (4-10m).

Mekton, Silhouette/ Heavy Gear/ Jovian Chronicles (DP9), and BESM for example all include rules for generating smaller than human robots to gigantic spaceship size constructs of varying shapes and forms. Battletech has more than just the big battlemechs now as you mentioned.

Mecha don't belong in traveller. Combat walkers (AKA ExHvy Battle Dress) might... 2.5m, comparable to Battletech's elemenntals. More wearable robot than body armor. Transformable to motobikes, not IMTU.

So 2.5m is ok, but 3m isn't even if they are the same basic design and layout? I referred earlier to Shirow's landmates. They are wearable "robots" with feedback mechanisms. One of my points was not to bring in Mobile Suit Gundams but for more realistic and viable designs, which includes no transforming robots.

Where is the line drawn? Well, 12m tall hominids have no place IMTU. 12m tall wildfire-fighhting hexapod walkers, maybe. 2m tall warbots, sure! 2.5m Wearable Walkers, absolutely. As combattants, maybe. As cargo loaders, maybe. As sporting craft for the ridiculously wealthy, YUP!!!

That's fine, it's yer 'verse. I have my own wacky Cthuloid TU to play with which I would never put Gundam RX-78s for example in.

Sidenote: I would personally love to see and/or convert some of the ideas from the old SF3D model kits into 2300 and/or Traveller. (it's been a long time since I've seen 2300 so I've forgotten what all it had techwise)

To sum up: there is a wide range of designs and ideas in anime and manga that is well worth looking into as it can be a rich source for your gaming fun, even for Traveller. ^_^ The OTU is a big 'verse with a lot of cultures and range of technology.

Casey

 

[kaladorn]

You've answered your own question Larsen.

A house without a dog is not a house at all. Ergo, when the dog died, it became a robot.

As to the CIWS comment, I can one up that - the CIWS that shredded its own ship structure! (Not telling you what ship though!). Someone forgot something in the programming....

 

[clementk]

Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
Gentlemen,

Very intriguing thread. I think it suffers from a limited scope however. Our cultural blinders are showing again. We're talking about 'robots' in combat, but just what is a 'robot'

<big snip of good stuff>

A good point. And yes robots should not be limited to a handful of basic shapes/functions.

I wonder if it has something also to do also with Robot rules arriving late in CT's time period and an emphasis on "human" characters (i.e. that robots are perhaps seem as limiting or taking focus away from the player characters as in "Just let the robot do it" ). I have not designed robots really in Traveller (pick yer version) perhaps it also has something to do with how robots are designed / handled as pc's in Traveller?

One of the more fascinating player characters I've seen ever is a Robot A.I. (cybershell in Transhuman Space terms) in a T20 game.

[...]I beleive that systems in the 57th Century will be more 'robotic' than we imagine.

Interesting. Yet from what I have seen (and I admit I lack a lot of Traveller material) the OTU has not shown this even though it would realistically be the case IMO.

Personally that is one of the things I like about Iain M. Banks Culture. There are drones (military, servant, etc.) and other "smart" to "aware" objects and such everywhere within the Culture.

Casey

 

[aramis]

A robot as a combat unit needs to meet the following criteria:

1) Capable of functioning in the environment
2) capable of defeating other combat units (manned or automated)
3) able to resist destruction.

Most current combat robots are unarmed... so defeat is a word that needs attention: for a spy bot, defeat means to get the goods back to base before capture/destruction, preferably before detection/identification by target.

For the "Bomb Killer" bots, it means nneutralizing the threat, be it man or bomb, before being destroyed by bomb or man.

In the canon 3I, warbots are retricted and prpagandized against. (Zhodani Perfidy, etc. See the Traveller Adventure.) There are effective combat bots, running low autonomous software, cabable of semi-independant inftantry operations.

There are likewise manned walker units, although none are the anthropomorphic type. (Dynchia Strider, and some other ones.) There are walker ATV's, rare, but known. Battledress blurs the line between wearable vehicle, and body armor.

Some real world penetration of knowledge: NASA is working on walker probes, because they can handle FAR ROUGHER terrains than even the hybrid leg/wheel designs currently used. NASA tested one in a nearby volcano, for over a year. They sent it down the cone. 6 legged walkers seem to be the design norm for walking rovers. this implies long and low.

As to the "Mecha" term - the genre, as a whole, of Mecha anime, is based upon combattants. That Patlabor has non-combattant types is probably realistic, but NOT a major convention of the genre. If you watch Macross &/or Robotech, does the mobile soda machine make it mecha anime, or the soda machine a mecha?

Likewise, in many parts of the world, including most of the US, the police are effectively military, and police vehciles often include combattants; it is arguable that police vehicles see more combat than similar military vehicles.

And BESM, HG, and JC (as well as DP9's new SciFi offering) do include rules for more than just "Giant Robot" craft... but again, that is not the focus of the DP9 settings, and BESM is NOT focused on mecha anime. So does MectonZeta.

Likewise, in the mecha anime settings, conventional weapons often have little to no effect on meach units... a distinction not prime to the genre, but often present.

Anime as a whole has several things to teach us as Gamemasters/Referees... first is that STORY MATTERS. But I'm not going to borrow from Patlabor, Macross, Robotech, Gall Force, Urusei yatsura, nor even some of the "Realistic military anime" of recent years, for my TU's tech base. Gundam has enough good stuff besides the mecha that it is worthwhile. (Descriptions of the interior of O'neil stations... at least in the novels.) But you're not going to find an elmeth-bits system IMTU.

 

[Murph]

How big a marine unit should most starships carry, and how big does it need to be to be useful?

 

[The Oz]

Depends on what those Marines are intended to do.

A patrol corvette often carries a squad of 8 troops (who may or may not be "Marines") to provide bodies for customs inspection parties. These troops also provide a small amount of ground power for very light operations (like making an arrest on a smuggler at his hideout).

 

[BetterThanLife]

I have based the Marines in MTU based on several things. A platoon of marines is 35. (The number, thought not the organization of Marines on the Kinunir.) A Company is 110. (That is 3 platoons and 5 guys for the Company HQ. CO, 1SG, Supply Sergeant, Armorer, Company Clerk.) (Which fits with most of the ships in Supp-9.) Which list a company as about 100 men.

A Squad of Marines is 8. (What fits on a Patrol Cruiser.)

The Platoon is 4 squads, the Platoon Leader, Platoon Sergeant, and Medic. Squads break down to fireteams of two buddy teams of two Marines each ("Two equals one and one equals none.").

3 Squads in the platoon are equipped with 6 Gauss Rifles and 2 FGMP-15s, the fourth squad, the weapons squad, is equipped with 4-6 FGMP-15s 2-4 gauss rifles and 2-4 Tac missile launchers. (Mission dependent.)

4 companies, a Recon Platoon, a HQ Platoon, an Armored Company, an Artillery Battery and a Batalion Aide Station make up a Batalion. (Somewhere between 550 and 600 Marines depending on the Artillery and Tank crew sizes.)

Marines IMTU are Battledressed trained but not always equipped with Battledress. In general One Platoon in a Company and one Company in a Batalion is so equipped. However things change based on mission requirements. Marines, IMTU, used to be without the Armor detachment but FGMPs don't make for good primary Anti-Armor capability against TL-13+ tanks, especially in T20, and though Marines have fighter wings IMTU I felt they should have organic Armor/Anti-Armor support. All Marines, IMTU, are trained and equipped with Grav Belts. Therefore Marines rarely are mechanized. (Leave that for the Army.) They are also all trained as Drop Troopers. They are fast moving, hard hitting, flexible and very nasty to cross. Equipped to TL-15, (After all it is easier to build small parts and components to TL-15 than Starships.) the Marines are a uniform force which makes training standard and transfer and integration of Marines into forces bigger than a Batalion much easier.