Imperial weapons permits

[Drakon]

I would think Nuclear Biological or Chemical warfare *anywhere* Would have the instant attention of the Imperial Military and Scout institutions, and not in a positive way. Hmm, was NBC warfare used by anyone on planets in any of the frontier wars? I know meson strikes were used, but is the radiation from such considered persistent? or instantaneous? On civilian / planetary targets I mean.

I have to agree. The problem with such weapons is they are too dangerous. Chemical and biological weapons have a nasty habit of backfiring. They cannot really be targeted, except in the most general and inperfect ways.

While atomics are very very large bombs in proportionally smaller packages, the biggest problem is the indiscriminant nature of such weapons. Biological weapons can be worse and unpredictable, since organisms have this tendancy to evolve.

The Imperial Navy would be very interested in any persons or organizations deploying such weapons.

 

[Quint]

...Chemical and biological weapons have a nasty habit of backfiring. They cannot really be targeted, except in the most general and inperfect ways.

Unless, at some TL, Bioweapons can be highly targeted via genetic markers or some other esoteric device - which actually makes them more frightening...

D.

 

[Timerover51]

I would think Nuclear Biological or Chemical warfare *anywhere* Would have the instant attention of the Imperial Military and Scout institutions, and not in a positive way. Hmm, was NBC warfare used by anyone on planets in any of the frontier wars? I know meson strikes were used, but is the radiation from such considered persistent? or instantaneous? On civilian / planetary targets I mean.

I would not be too sure about that. Chemical weapons have been used a bit since World War One, instances being the use of mustard agent by the Italians in Ethiopia, the Japanese use of both chemical and biological agents in China prior to and during World War 2, Egypt's use of chemical weapons, supplied by the USSR, in Yemen in the 1960s, the USSR's use of chemical agents in Afghanistan, and Iraqi (and probably Iranian) use during the Iran-Iraq War. All of those were given a pass by the major powers.

One problem for the US is if someone used chemical or biological weapons on the US, the only response the US has is to use nuclear weapons. That is not a terribly attractive alternative. I suspect that the Imperium, unless the usage is really extreme, would simply ignore it.

Also, how would you handle the accidental exposure of the Vargr to the canine distemper virus. I am not sure about something like Anthrax with respect to the K'kree, or the Feline Leukemia Virus with respect to the Aslan.

 

[welsh]

I don't think we can compare reactions to NBC weapons in our time with how the Imperium might react to the use of those weapons within its own territory. It's simply not analogous. It might be more accurate to consider how the government of the United States would react if General Motors used nerve gas to deal with the United Auto Workers.

That's not quite as far-fetched as it sounds: there is one recorded instance of the use of chemical weapons in American labor violence, at Blair Mountain WV in 1921. (The federal government was already mobilizing to intervene in the violence before that happened, and the gas bombs used proved ineffective.) At that time, outbreaks of violence commonly accompanied strikes. Look at the threshold of violence needed to prompt a federal response, and I think you get an idea of the Imperial rules of war. (Also, this involves mercenaries -- Pinkerton's, Baldwin-Felts agencies -- there's a rich source of scenarios here....)

To me, the Imperium is really all about the money: it's not worth the trouble to intervene in small conflicts, but if the conflict spreads to the point where the flow of money to Imperial coffers is substantially affected (by disrupting trade, or taxation) then the Imperium will issue a ceasefire order and step on anyone who ignores it. I think any BC weapons are beyond the threshold.

 

[kilemall]

I don't think we can compare reactions to NBC weapons in our time with how the Imperium might react to the use of those weapons within its own territory. It's simply not analogous. It might be more accurate to consider how the government of the United States would react if General Motors used nerve gas to deal with the United Auto Workers.

That's not quite as far-fetched as it sounds: there is one recorded instance of the use of chemical weapons in American labor violence, at Blair Mountain WV in 1921. (The federal government was already mobilizing to intervene in the violence before that happened, and the gas bombs used proved ineffective.) At that time, outbreaks of violence commonly accompanied strikes. Look at the threshold of violence needed to prompt a federal response, and I think you get an idea of the Imperial rules of war. (Also, this involves mercenaries -- Pinkerton's, Baldwin-Felts agencies -- there's a rich source of scenarios here....)

To me, the Imperium is really all about the money: it's not worth the trouble to intervene in small conflicts, but if the conflict spreads to the point where the flow of money to Imperial coffers is substantially affected (by disrupting trade, or taxation) then the Imperium will issue a ceasefire order and step on anyone who ignores it. I think any BC weapons are beyond the threshold.

I would argue private and/or corps use of PA and Meson Guns fit in that category too, given their radioactive messiness and capacity for destruction.

 

[Spartan159]

Particle Accelerators definitely, I missed that one. As to the Meson Accelerator aka Meson Gun, Just what does that do to a target, leave a sphere of... what? dust? Radioactive or not? I gather the initial impact causes a radiation burst but does it mean the remainder of the impact zone or edges are then radioactive? For how long? I remember somewhere in Striker it causes ground to be "Broken?" "Rubble?" but I don't recall a radiation component, that I gather from High Guard damage tables.

Wikipedia says "Charged mesons decay (sometimes through intermediate particles) to form electrons and neutrinos. Uncharged mesons may decay to photons."

It sounds like among other effects you get an electrical zap and a flash of light.

Padawan seeks enlightenment.

 

[McPerth]

Hmm, was NBC warfare used by anyone on planets in any of the frontier wars?

Not at large sclae, AFAIK. One carácter appeared in a supplement was told to have his parents killes in a nuclear strike at an starport, IIRC, so we cna assume some tactical nukes (at least) were used (aside from any nukes used in space warfare), but ,AFAIK, there's not a single large scale planetary bombing against civilian targets in the full OTU history (the closer case being the bombing of Illelish after its revolet, that sterilized its equator, but population was displaced first).

Also, how would you handle the accidental exposure of the Vargr to the canine distemper virus. I am not sure about something like Anthrax with respect to the K'kree, or the Feline Leukemia Virus with respect to the Aslan.

My guess here: Vargr could be affected by canine diseases, as they are descendents from them, but Aslan are fully unrelated to Terran felines, and K'kree are fully unrelated to Terran hervivores, so I have serious dubts Terran germens would affect them.

I would argue private and/or corps use of PA and Meson Guns fit in that category too, given their radioactive messiness and capacity for destruction.

IIRC in a narticle ablut Starmecs it was stated that meson weapons and PAs with a rating over 7 were forbiden for them, so hinting there's some control over those weapons.

After all, if registred Starmercs have them restricted, more so civilian ships...

 

[McPerth]

That is also correct, but I was thinking more in line of immediately available off-the-shelf materials. I once had a chemical engineer friend look at the formula for VX persistent nerve agent, and it took him about 10 seconds to tell me how to make it, and that he could put a pilot plant producing a ton per day in his 2 1/2 car garage. He figured that he could could have that up and running in a maximum of 6 months.

Most chemical weapons are quite easy to produce, the main problem being containing them. You could produce tabun or sarín gases at home, but the likehood to be afected by them, unless you have a protective suit, is quite high...

 

[McPerth]

Because cyberwarfare on a massive scale would really result in massive casualties for a high tech society.

We have a very nice (and arged) example in TNE...

 

[McPerth]

To me, the Imperium is really all about the money: it's not worth the trouble to intervene in small conflicts, but if the conflict spreads to the point where the flow of money to Imperial coffers is substantially affected (by disrupting trade, or taxation) then the Imperium will issue a ceasefire order and step on anyone who ignores it. I think any BC weapons are beyond the threshold.

See that in LBB4:mercenary, in the comando ticket example (in Porozlo, so an Imperial balkanized world), it is stated that due to the value of the facilities involved nuclear weapons are not expected to be used, but some non-persistent chemicals are not ruled out.

The reference to nukes makes me think LBB4 was before IRW were fully defined (as they are explicity forbidden there), but maybe chemicals (mostly non persistent ones) are accepted by IRW anyway, at least in sparsely inhabitated zones...

About biological weapons, they may wel llead to a quarentained world if they go out of hand.

 

[McPerth]

Hmm, while falling asleep last night, came up with the Class Warfare version of Law Level rights.

LL + 7 - SOC= PLL

PLL is personal law level, how the law level is experienced for each character.

The higher the social standing, the more 'rights' you have and the less hassle you get.

So for the average SOC 7 LL9 might be restrictive, but for the local Baron it's all LL4. The Baron breezes through, reasonably armed and almost never stopped by the police.

Conversely, a planet could be LL2, normally a pretty laid back place with little corruption, but a SOC 2 would experience it as LL9 and have to bribe his way through just to get a parking spot without a tow.


Pretty quirky stuff and I don't know that I would ever run things this way, but for those who want 'rank hath it's privileges' it certainly would put a helluva spin on the whole law level mechanic.

Might also produce a laser-like focus on increasing that SOC- "my boy will never pay the underclass tax!" or the like.

Heh, could be a complication too, if the Baron is with his lowlife SOC 2 friends too many times during hassle stops, could put HIS SOC at risk. Likewise the Baron's presence might put a crimp in the SOC 2 Streetcred and in danger of rising, losing all those Streetwise perks!

I see something like this to be used in planets ruled by oligarchies or dictatorships, but I don't believe this could work in more democratic (democracies and in some cases bureaucarcies), where everyone is assumed to be equal before the law, to use it.

And see that local SOC may difer from Imperial SOC, and what is seen as a high noble in his own planet may well not be seen as high SOC outside it. Conversely, an outworlder may be seen as high SOC just for it (in societies that see them in awe or that see Imperium as a true superior), or they may be even more restricted (in xenphobic societies).

 

[whulorigan]

Wikipedia says "Charged mesons decay (sometimes through intermediate particles) to form electrons and neutrinos. Uncharged mesons may decay to photons."

It sounds like among other effects you get an electrical zap and a flash of light.

But remember that energy and momentum are conserved, which means that all of the energy released in the meson beam must be accounted for after the decay of the mesons.

Those photons would be Gamma Radiation, and those electrons and positrons would be (likely near-lightspeed) beta-rays (and the positrons would then annihilate other electrons and produce more gamma rays).

So it would depend on the initial energy of the meson beam.


It is discussed somewhat on this thread:

[FONT=arial,helvetica]Weird meson thoughts
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=31416

[/FONT]

 

[welsh]

I see something like this to be used in planets ruled by oligarchies or dictatorships, but I don't believe this could work in more democratic (democracies and in some cases bureaucarcies), where everyone is assumed to be equal before the law, to use it.

And see that local SOC may difer from Imperial SOC, and what is seen as a high noble in his own planet may well not be seen as high SOC outside it. Conversely, an outworlder may be seen as high SOC just for it (in societies that see them in awe or that see Imperium as a true superior), or they may be even more restricted (in xenphobic societies).

Crime, and in particular violent crime, is more likely to be committed by those of low socioeconomic status, i.e. social standing in game terms. Police know this and it affects their behaviour. It's not in the least unlikely that low-SOC characters would be more likely to meet police harassment than high-SOC characters in democracies. To avoid political kerfuffles I will refrain from now pointing to numerous real-world examples.

The police don't know a PC's SOC, of course, but it will be reflected in what he does and where he does it on a day-to-day basis. So kilemall's idea is a practical suggestion as a general rule. It's one way to give the SOC characteristic game effects that it otherwise lacks.

It doesn't account for xenophobia, etc., but that's a different kettle of fish.

 

[kilemall]

I see something like this to be used in planets ruled by oligarchies or dictatorships, but I don't believe this could work in more democratic (democracies and in some cases bureaucarcies), where everyone is assumed to be equal before the law, to use it.

And see that local SOC may difer from Imperial SOC, and what is seen as a high noble in his own planet may well not be seen as high SOC outside it. Conversely, an outworlder may be seen as high SOC just for it (in societies that see them in awe or that see Imperium as a true superior), or they may be even more restricted (in xenphobic societies).

Hmmm, depends I guess on how cynical a game you want to play re: democracies.

I would argue high SOC standing people get away with all sorts of things plebian people don't because they have connections/lawyers and know how to 'get things done', even in supposed 'equal before the law' societies.

I assume you have heard the phrase 'best justice money can buy'.

Conversely 'low life' people are considered guilty until proven innocent by LE and therefore get disproportionate 'hassle rolls'.

This may be my interpretation of US LE, I am gathering you are from UK and the LE relationships may be different there.

 

[kilemall]

Particle Accelerators definitely, I missed that one. As to the Meson Accelerator aka Meson Gun, Just what does that do to a target, leave a sphere of... what? dust? Radioactive or not? I gather the initial impact causes a radiation burst but does it mean the remainder of the impact zone or edges are then radioactive? For how long? I remember somewhere in Striker it causes ground to be "Broken?" "Rubble?" but I don't recall a radiation component, that I gather from High Guard damage tables.

Wikipedia says "Charged mesons decay (sometimes through intermediate particles) to form electrons and neutrinos. Uncharged mesons may decay to photons."

It sounds like among other effects you get an electrical zap and a flash of light.

Padawan seeks enlightenment.

I'm working from the Striker definition of a sphere of destruction, everything inside vaporized, HG rating defines as 10 meters radius per rating factor (so a Type L spinal weapon is detonating a burst 200 meters in radius, or in Traveller ton terms 33500000/14 = 2,392,857 tons).

That and HG hit rules, where Mesons do internal damage AND equal damage on the radiation table.

That reads like a sovereign power reserved WMD to me. Treaties too, not that the treaties will stop anything when the shooting starts, but might get people to reduce the arms race a little.

 

[McPerth]

Hmmm, depends I guess on how cynical a game you want to play re: democracies.

I would argue high SOC standing people get away with all sorts of things plebian people don't because they have connections/lawyers and know how to 'get things done', even in supposed 'equal before the law' societies.

I assume you have heard the phrase 'best justice money can buy'.

Conversely 'low life' people are considered guilty until proven innocent by LE and therefore get disproportionate 'hassle rolls'.

I'm not being cynical. I know contacts and money can offer many advantages, but if there's any formal equality, most such licences can be obrained in many cases regardless your SOC system, and here justice does not interfere, unless you have had problems with it before.

Wat an happen to you if you use the weapon you're licenced to have it's another matter, and here I agree with your arguments.

This may be my interpretation of US LE, I am gathering you are from UK and the LE relationships may be different there.

What has made you think I'm from UK?

You can read where I'm from (Barcelona) in my profile.

 

[Timerover51]

Most chemical weapons are quite easy to produce, the main problem being containing them. You could produce tabun or sarín gases at home, but the likehood to be afected by them, unless you have a protective suit, is quite high...

You might want to look at the nerve gas attack on the Tokyo subway system a while back.

As for containing chemical weapons, that is not that hard to do. It all depends on the delivery system used and the duration of toxicity of the agent. Mustard it perhaps the most difficult to deal with in that respect, as under certain conditions, it can stay around for months before breaking down.

As for the Aslan and K'kree, can they or can they not consume food also consumed by humans?

 

[aramis]

Particle Accelerators definitely, I missed that one. As to the Meson Accelerator aka Meson Gun, Just what does that do to a target, leave a sphere of... what? dust? Radioactive or not? I gather the initial impact causes a radiation burst but does it mean the remainder of the impact zone or edges are then radioactive? For how long? I remember somewhere in Striker it causes ground to be "Broken?" "Rubble?" but I don't recall a radiation component, that I gather from High Guard damage tables.

Wikipedia says "Charged mesons decay (sometimes through intermediate particles) to form electrons and neutrinos. Uncharged mesons may decay to photons."

It sounds like among other effects you get an electrical zap and a flash of light.

Padawan seeks enlightenment.

According to Striker...

All personnel within the burst area of a meson accelerator are killed;
all vehicles and weapons are destroyed; all buildings collapse and any smooth
ground surface becomes broken ground.​

The radiation effects are apparently only during the burst.

Think of it like turning everthing inside to styrofoam - but not changing its mass. It just can't stand up under its own weight. And, any gasses or liquids are instantly carbonated, pressing outward.

Remember, also, soil's essentially a very thick liquid.... It's going to literally boil. In VERY slow motion. Essentially, it gets fluffed or detonated.

 

[kilemall]

What has made you think I'm from UK?

You can read where I'm from (Barcelona) in my profile.

Oh ya sure, USE the forum tools before mouthing off.

Where would the fun be in that?

(Honestly, I think it was a post or two about some English situation and it sounded like what a lot of the English posters tend to post on another forum I am in. Point still remains, LE may be regarded differently there.

I have a running correspondence on another forum and game with a fellow from Barcelona, plays part time in a band there).

 

[Hyphen]

Therefore there is no point to the local law level since any Imperial citizen can use their Imperial right to bear arms...

I think they were talking about Imperial _nobility_ only, not just any run-of-the-mill citizen.

What's the Law Level of Capitol? Dulinor carried his pistol on his hip (and was allowed to as a noble).