Initiative System Gripes Pt. 1

[Tragin]

Ever tried Classic Traveller?

I used to play CT in the Mid 80's but stopped playing due to lack of finding other players

I did not think CT was complex but other people I tried to get to play the game had that impression even after playing a game or two.

 

[Tragin]

I liked the starship design system. But robject pointed out that most of the things I liked were rules written by MWM. After seeing a draft of MWM's rules, I do think that MGT did a good job of streamlining them.

The character generation system is okay, although the survival rolls are way too high for military careers.

I've not tackled the world generation and animal/encounter stuff yet. EDG's stuff looks interesting, but it doesn't look like it's gonna get implemented in MGT.



And that is the cryin' shame of it all. There's nothing inherently complex about Traveller. Classic Traveller is especially easy to play and run, though it needs a better "to hit" and armor/damage mechanics. As well as a tech update and more weapons. Ironically, most of those pieces are already out there, just waiting to be picked up.

The MGT character generation system, the MGT starship design system, a variant of High Guard combat system that doesn't require moving counters on a board (or miniatures on a table), and the T4 armor/damage system could easily replace comparable CT subsystems and the result would be a simple, elegant and fun game.

I don't care at all for the d20 system, so I don't play T20. But I did appreciate the obvious affection for Traveller shown by its designers. Mongoose should have looked at T20 as an example of how to do a Traveller remake right.



IMHO, MGT will confirm the stereotype of Traveller as an unplayable, absurdly fussy mess, suitable only for long time Traveller fans. Of course the bitter irony is that some of the most vocal critics of MGT are "long time Traveller fans".



Yep. And MGT will do nothing to change that belief.



Given that their core task and combat systems are far more fiddly and involved than most previous Traveller systems, I can't believe that this was actually a design goal (no matter what they claim). I can't see how any reasonable person could look at the combat system (and the defective starship combat system) and see a simplified version of Traveller.

I was hoping for a version the Traveller that would appeal to more gamers, so at least in part it would be easier for me to find a traveler game to play in. It’s kind of sad that I can find more people to play Wizards of the Cost Star War (which I will never play) than Traveller.[/QUOTE]

Well, you might try T20. If it's too complex, strip it down to look more like Star Wars.

Unless of course, you don't want to run a d20 game.

Fear not though. When the new version of Chaosium's "Basic Roleplaying" comes out, I'll probably do an unofficial Traveller variant. That system is very simple and elegant (and I'd respect that in any variant I did).

In the meantime, try running Classic Traveller with the damage and armor rules from T4 and Book 2 and Supplement 4 characters only. If you want a more modern character generation system, I produced one that would let you design your character. It's working well in my current Traveller campaign.

My thoughts on converting T4 combat system to CT: http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=14974

My alternate CT character generation system:
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=14819

YMMV of course.

Oh, to make CT weapons sexier, give them twice as much ammunition at TL 9+ and tell the players they fire caseless rounds. Also, sex up the weapon names. It's not a Rifle, it's a Heavy Pulse Rifle. It's not a Carbine, it's a Light Pulse Rifle or an Assault Carbine. Almost any weapon can be sexed up by adding "Assault", "Combat", "Battle", "Heavy", "Tactical", "Medium", "Light", etc. to its name. It isn't a revolver, its a Heavy Assault Revolver.[/QUOTE]



Some good points in here. At this point I would play any version of Traveller if I could only find a in person Traveller game in my area.

But to date my favorite Traveller versions are: CT and of course T20.

 

[Able Baker]

Who is the greater nuisance?

Someone who picks on many different aspects of a game, backed up with arguments, or someone who picks on the picker with the same argument everytime?

EDIT: That is to say: What Hunter said. If someone doesn´t like tbeard´s points, he doesn´t have to read his threads. But if you enter a thread, don´t complain about it´s existance.

EDITEDIT: ObTrav
Why isn´t every military in Known Space training their officers solely in Tactics? THat would mean the troops would march faster, shoot more often and better and make more damage. Every two second increment of a campaign.

 

[Echo]

If you think there are too many negative MGT posts, start positive ones of your own.

Do you really think fans of the game want to post here, in the current climate? 15 out of 21 threads, all by the same openly hostile poster about the same complaint - speaks for itself.

 

[aramis]

Do you really think fans of the game want to post here, in the current climate? 15 out of 21 threads, all by the same openly hostile poster about the same complaint - speaks for itself.

I concur. mega:

 

[Supplement Four]

EDITEDIT: ObTrav
Why isn´t every military in Known Space training their officers solely in Tactics? THat would mean the troops would march faster, shoot more often and better and make more damage. Every two second increment of a campaign.

This is a good point. I predict this will be one of the "hidden" problems with MGT that gamers will pick up on only after playing the game a while.

The GM will see a problem, and then he'll house-rule it. Mature gamers will go with what the GM says. The other gamers (who have characters with high Tactics skill) will bitch that the game is "not as fun" after the change.

This is prime example of what I mean when I say MGT seems like a GM's not-well-thought-out house rules rather than something a professional game designer should put out.

 

[Supplement Four]

Do you really think fans of the game want to post here, in the current climate? 15 out of 21 threads, all by the same openly hostile poster about the same complaint - speaks for itself.

Why not? I post over at the MGT forum, and it's overwhelmingly "pro MGT" over there.

It doesn't stop me from posting when I have something to say.

And, TBeard was posting over there until...(slaps head)...Oh yeah. THEY BANNED HIM. Remember?

 

[Echo]

I think the inference that tbeard1999 was somehow an innocent party, banned for no good reason from those forums, just goes to show how far removed this forum is, currently.

And no, I don't think that is a healthy thing at all.

 

[aramis]

Why not? I post over at the MGT forum, and it's overwhelmingly "pro MGT" over there.

It doesn't stop me from posting when I have something to say.

And, TBeard was posting over there until...(slaps head)...Oh yeah. THEY BANNED HIM. Remember?

For making personal attacks on the designer.

End of this direction of talk, please.

 

[Thuban]

Oh, to make CT weapons sexier, give them twice as much ammunition at TL 9+ and tell the players they fire caseless rounds. Also, sex up the weapon names. It's not a Rifle, it's a Heavy Pulse Rifle. It's not a Carbine, it's a Light Pulse Rifle or an Assault Carbine. Almost any weapon can be sexed up by adding "Assault", "Combat", "Battle", "Heavy", "Tactical", "Medium", "Light", etc. to its name. It isn't a revolver, its a Heavy Assault Revolver.

:rofl:

I like it.

 

[hunter]

Do you really think fans of the game want to post here, in the current climate? 15 out of 21 threads, all by the same openly hostile poster about the same complaint - speaks for itself.

You can always ignore his posts. Usually a good idea when you are annoyed with someone.

That aside, I do see people posting here and debating his positions.

Is it annoying? Yep to some. I try to give folks a lot of latitude, kind like yourself, to post their opinions good or bad. If it gets out of hand, I deal with it.

 

[hunter]

I think the inference that tbeard1999 was somehow an innocent party, banned for no good reason from those forums, just goes to show how far removed this forum is, currently.

Haven't seen too many folks saying this.

 

[Echo]

Haven't seen too many folks saying this.

I was referring to Supplement Four's last post here, and there have been quite a few others that have inferred the same, including tbeard1999 himself.

I know that you're just trying to mediate a forum to a calm, and fair, level of discourse on here, but seriously, just look at it at the moment. It's not good.

And let's be clear, I'm not asking for censorship or anything else so heavy handed, but what I am saying is that a handful of posters with...ah..issues about Mongoose have all got themselves into such a mindset that there absolutely no headway in even trying to discuss anything positive about the game on this site at the moment. It'd be like trying to discuss evolution in a creationist rally.

 

[Supplement Four]

And let's be clear, I'm not asking for censorship or anything else so heavy handed, but what I am saying is that a handful of posters with...ah..issues about Mongoose have all got themselves into such a mindset that there absolutely no headway in even trying to discuss anything positive about the game on this site at the moment.

Why don't you start a thread called "What I Like About Mongoose Traveller". This isn't a joke. I mean it.

Heck, I'll read it.

If you don't want to do that, no prob. If you want, I'll ask you right here. What are the things you like about MGT?

(This is a serious post--not a set-up. I'm interested.)

 

[hunter]

I was referring to Supplement Four's last post here, and there have been quite a few others that have inferred the same, including tbeard1999 himself.

Actually I think there are many more that don't agree with them posting here.

I know that you're just trying to mediate a forum to a calm, and fair, level of discourse on here, but seriously, just look at it at the moment. It's not good.

That may be true, but that's the job of the moderators to handle. Posting complaints that you don't like a thread subject or that there are too many threads on subject X is not any better. The best way to handle that is to report those posts that you think are disruptive to the moderators/admins.

With regard to the current situation, it's been handled.

 

[tbeard1999]

I think the inference that tbeard1999 was somehow an innocent party, banned for no good reason from those forums, just goes to show how far removed this forum is, currently.

And no, I don't think that is a healthy thing at all.

If you have specific rebuttals or objections to my arguments, please post them.

 

[Echo]

If you have specific rebuttals or objections to my arguments, please post them.

There is no point.

That is the point, actually.

 

[tbeard1999]

For making personal attacks on the designer.

End of this direction of talk, please.

Well, before ending this, let's be sure the record is complete and accurate.

From the post itself:

I'm tired of your relentless personal attacks against the designers, editors and other posters here and, frankly, I should have done this months ago. Go away, and don't come back.

So Aramis, your explanation was incomplete. I was banned for two specific reasons--attacking the designers/editors and attacking the other posters in the forum. You left the second charge out.

As to the charges, yeah, I admit that I openly questioned the competence and judgment of the designers in the course of identifying numerous flaws in the game. As I've already admitted, it might have been better to merely insinuate and imply my beliefs about their competence. Even better would have been for me to openly state how much I loved MGT and respect the prowess of the design team, while relentlessly exposing its flaws.

But that's not my style. I spoke plainly and received the typical reward for that. No surprises to me there. Someone who knowingly eschews tact is poorly placed to complain when he's shunned by the target of his criticisms.

However I flatly deny that I launched personal attacks on posters in the threads (or anyone else) and challenge anyone to produce quotes of a personal attack made by me against anyone else (except maybe in retaliation for a direct personal attack, and even there I'm doubtful).

I contend that 1 1/2 of the two specific charges against me are false. It is hard for me to work up much energy to complain about being mistreated; I loathe playing the victim and as noted, I was surprised that I lasted as long as I did there.

But facts are facts. And the fact is that I did not launch personal attacks (except maybe where they fired first) on anyone except the design team -- assuming that questioning their design competence is really a personal attack.

 

[tbeard1999]

There is no point.

That is the point, actually.

<shrug>

If you are unable to rebut my arguments, then perhaps you should refrain from complaining about them.

 

[Supplement Four]

TBeard,

Do you have a link to the thread where you were banned?



(BTW, the fangooses over there jumped on me too with my criticism of the stat-bloat in the task system, and my posts didn't attack anybody--just the task system. The difference, I think, is that I quit the argument when I saw it was pointless to go on. The pro-MGTers all ganged up on me, post after post, with much more inflamatory material about me than than what I was writing about the task system. Had I kept discussing it in the thread, I'm sure I would have been banned, too. I've seen this kind of thing happen before.)