Is Solomani evil?

[leadhead]

stofsk forgets that outside the State Dept. the UN is exceedingly unpopular in the USA (of course, being in Oz I wouldn't expect him to be up on American sentiments). Every year congressional calls to cancel funding get louder and at the current rate, assuming the Democratic socialists continue to lose elections, the UN will be doing without American money in the near future (which would spell the end of the institution) unless it udertakes some MAJOR reforms... yeah, right, like THAT'S gonna happen!

Moreover the UN is a sick, expensive joke. It has failed to intervene in the genocides in Rawanda, Sudan and Kosovo (I guess if you call it Jihad its not genocide...). It has raised anti-Semitism to heights we haven't seen since the 1940's (going so far as to republish Savi Datri's tripe). It has actively aided terrorists in Kosovo, Bosnia, Lebanon, Israel and Cyprus. It has turned on the very Western morality that gave it birth (sort of like the OTU Sollies).

The UN has never stopped a war but it has started a few, and the only security it protects is the graft stolen by it bureacrats (e.g. Oil for Food scam). It is a corrupt, morally backrupt institution borne out of misguided wishful thinking. The UN is opposed to free trade, it wants globally regulated trade which it will have the power to tax. (Thank goodness the US has had the common sense to quash that silliness)

The 3I, on the other hand isn't democratic per se but then until about 50 years ago, monarchies and authoritarian states were common in the West. The Roman Empire on which its structure is based is the very flower of the west. Unlike the Sollies, the 3I tends to leave local governments to their own devices. Yes, it tolerates tyranical regimes but then so do the Sollies. On the otherhand, just cross the XT line and you are free of the local warlord. I would imagine many otherwise despotic regimes use the XT zone as a safety valve, a way of getting rid of dissenters and 'undesireables' but deportation to the Imperial desmense rather than more unpleasant means of removal.

The Imperials would tolerate the situation as it provides the Emperor and his officials with a ready-made base of support should an Imperial intervention be needed. The threat of Imperial displeasure backed up by the Imperial military and a ready-made fifth column keeps the despots in line with overall Imperial policy.

 

[Tobias]

@ leadhead
Could you relocate any political axes in need of grinding elsewhere? For example to Political Pulpit? Following these words of wisdom, I'd rather not know how much you hate the UN or how you blame it for not undertaking reforms when they were veto'ed by the US etc.

Regards,

Tobias

P.S.: Shiver me timbers! I has almost forgotten that it be ITLAP Day. Take yer political bilge-talk to Political Pulpit, ye scurvy lubber, or ye shall be keel-hauled. Arrrr!

 

[leadhead]

Tobias,
Any morally sane person hates the UN, but that's not my point (who argues about the obvious?). My point was that if you don't want to reconstruct the Solomani and see them as the Bad Guys (tm) then the model that makes the most sense in my not so humble opinion is to view them as the UN in Space with all the negatives that apply.

Like the UN, the Solomani government is corrupt, they talk a good game about concepts like human rights but run roughshod over local soveriegnty (recent SJG TNS posts bear this out), they are quite willing to ignore their own charter in pursuit of power.

Like the UN, the Solomani state is racist. Probably not only against non-Solomani but against those religious and ethnic leaders and groups that they see as an obstacle to power. (The recent orwellian Durban Conference on Racism where the conference spent most of its time engaging in anti-Semitic rhetoric is a good model for the sort of tripe that you'd expect out of the Solomani).

Earlier in this thread, I proposed a view of the Solomani that was far more sympathetic suggesting reasons other than the stock 'comic-opera' Nazi or bumbling space-Soviet that tends to be most people's view of the Solomani. Some took extreme exception to the idea that the Solomani could be protagonists. That got me thinking, how could the Solomani turn their back on the very Western ideals they pay lip service to and make them more like the stereotype without reducing them to cardboard cut outs of space Nazis out of central casting.

Looking back at AM6 and the recent SJG posting on their version of TNS left me with the unescapable parallels between the Solomani and the UN. The coming Solomani Civil War may allow a more diverse vision of the Solomani body politic but as it stands they are the UN in Space.

Your Mileage May Vary, Check Your Local Listings, Some Restrictions Apply, See Dealer for Details...

 

[Tobias]

I think I can see the difference between a sensible real-world comparison and a political propaganda platform under a thin "ObTrav" veil. Please do discuss this with persons who are "morally sane" enough to - but elsewhere, if you don't mind.

Regards,

Tobias

 

[stofsk]

If we're going to discuss politics then yes, there is a proper forum for that. However, the actual claim that the Solomani = UN in Space is on-topic. As someone who is new to Traveller and is only a casual fan I can appreciate Leadhead's comparison between the Solomani Confed and the UN.

It is obvious that Leadhead doesn't like the UN. Well, I don't like it either, but for different reasons it appears, none of which I have elected to elucidate. I haven't heard any rebuttal about the UN not embodying western values, except for the one about free trade. Of course, the USA has it's share of trade protectionists and mercantilists as well, so what does this prove? Free trade is an ideal, not a reality. Also, the USA happens to be the biggest provider of the UN's budget. If the US doesn't pay, and as you say Leadhead there is constant debate over this issue, what do you expect the UN to do about it? Or anything else, for that matter if it doesn't have the money?

I'll be the first to say that the UN is in much-needed reform, but that's saying something quite different from 'all morally sane people hate the UN'. I can criticise the UN without hating it, as I can criticise this or that without hating it. And I don't like the implication that I'm not moral if I don't hate the UN.

Same goes for the Solomani. From what little I've read I can't really say the Solomani are evil anymore than I can say that the Imperium or Zhodani are evil. Of the three I can say that the Zhodani are the worst of the bunch, but with the Solomani and Imperium it's a different story. Yes, the Solomani are specist but unless you can tell me a Vargr or Aslan can be an Emperor in the Imperium I don't think you can hold it against JUST the Solomani.

Personally I'm sick and tired of the notion that a political body must either be sterling good or boo-hiss bad. On that I can agree with Leadhead. Painting a more detailed portrait of the Solomani with many shades as opposed to stark contrasts is a good thing in my opinion.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

"Of the three I can say that the Zhodani are the worst"

And yet they're the happiest. Crime, mental illness, and social dysfunction are almost unknown.

 

[Rossoneill]

When you want to make sure that everyone thinks right and agrees with the state ,
Mind reading and mind control are the way to go

 

[leadhead]

Stofsk makes a good point. Yes, I loathe the UN but then I will freely admit I am rather politically minded.

However, sticking with the Solomani as UN model. Like the UN the Sollies have their good side (no one is all bad, even Hitler built the autobahn and Mussolini made the trains run on time). The UN, for example DOES occassionally help refugees and disaster victims through UNICEF and although they rarely succeed the Europeans have on occassion floated ideas to make the UN a vehicle to promote western ideals.

Similarly, the SC would occassionally be engaged in real disaster relief, and on some Imperial worlds the Solomani Party might be the only bulwark against an even more corrupt noble. Also, like the UN, the Solomani government has little direct influence over the lives of citizens of the richer or more powerful worlds or clusters of worlds which have the economic and/or military clout to defend their soveriegnty. Considering that on the whole the SC is comprised of reasonably proseperous worlds, the full effects of its ineptitude would only be felt on the poorer worlds... and even in the far future the poor and weak get the shaft.

It wouldn't surprise me to discover that the majority of Solomani persons are actually Imperial subjects, given the Empress' support for the Authenticist movement it would seem that Terran culture and religion are well-received in Imperial space.

That the Authenticist Movement is not well-received in Solomani space is interesting. After all, if the Sollies can't tolerate traditional Terran culture, what does that tell us? Perhaps, like the UN, there are some people that are just not equal? In the UN, at least at the last orwellianly named conference on racism, the agenda and rhetoric was of a sort that would not have been out of place at a Nazi Nuremburg rally in 1936. Now, there is no direct canon evidence that the OTU SC is anti-Semitic but it wouldn't surprise me if it was. Perhaps its not the Jews in particular but any traditionalist Terran culture that they can't stand? Who knows. Point is, that the paralells to the UN are too many to just ignore.

The UN is not the Nazis but they are pretty awful nevertheless, of course, their are some people who support the UN either out of idealism, habit, or simply because of too much propaganda who are nonetheless decent, likeable folks (I even know a few people who fit that description), the Solomani should be no different.

Likewise, the 3I is NOT a utopia. It has its share of injustices, poverty, hard-luck cases and so on. It's home rule laws allow free spirited democracies but also brutal dictatorships. It is an imperfect system as well. The meta-question, would you rather live under a well-governed, well-intentioned, system that might end up supporting a tyrant or an inefficient, morally bankrupt, ill-coordinated system that is as likely as not to leave you alone so long as you and your neighbors retain the means to keep the Federales in their place?

 

[Golan2072]

Politics aside , I don't think that the Solomani Confederacy is anyway near is a Stalinist ("communist") state, as it only owns a part of the economy, and allows a large amount of free megacorporate trade. Stalinism is first and foremost characterized by state ownership of the economy and bureaucratic control over it, the rest is empty rhetoric and police measures to keep the masses from overthrowing the bureacratic clique ("appartchiks"). The Solomani Confederacy simply does not have that degree of economic centralization.

I see the (pre-rebellion) Confederation as a right-wing, moderately racist variant on the "Strong State" model of the 1960's France or Germany or McCarthy's USA. Yes, there is racist mistreatment of minorities; yes, the state machine is huge, expensive and overbearing; yes, it sometimes spies on you; but it does not commit atrocities on a regular basis against minorities, and you'll have to make alot of noise to be "disappeared" - just telling a joke about the Secretary General won't get you into jail, unlike the USSR.

The Confederacy also practices "State Capitalism" - that is, the government is directly involved in the market, owning several companies (Transstar IIRC) and running them for its ends and for profit (for treasury or personal gain).

Not a pleasant place, but not worse than the Imperium; more progressive than it, in fact. And a bit more democratic

If you want to equate it to a sci-fi polity, do not try to find something in Star Trek - it's too over-moralistic - look at the Earth Alliance in Babylon 5, particularly when President Clarke came to power. Same anti-alien bigotry, same strong-state mentality, same police measures; just the Psi Corps were displaced from the Solomani to the Zhodani

Also, I don't think that direct transplantation of RL political/economic systems to a far-future sci-fi future is very interesting; A sci-fi polity built around the cliche' of "USSR in space" or "Nazis in space" is using overused material in stereotypical ways and will probably bore the players and/or referee unless a specific WWII and/or Cold War flavor is desired by all parties involved. Not all economies in the future should be categorized into the Stalinist or Capitalist extremes - and not everything which is not capitalist is a variant of the USSR.

Now, there should be an extreme right wing of the Solomani Party, and these bozos should be REAL facsists - they will see the Solomani Cause as the struggle for absolute Solomani dominance over all "ancient-induced Mutants". Think Kux Klux Klan's thoughts about blacks.

Oh, and don't equate the Solomani state to the UN; the UN doesn't have real teeth (though it can make alot of noise barking), the Confederacy has a very large military and is not afraid to use it.

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:
Politics aside , I don't think that the Solomani Confederacy is anyway near is a Stalinist ("communist") state,

Of course it isn't. The analogy is totally ridiculous, but there are a lot of political illiterates around.

The Solomani Confederation is a market (capitalist) economy, with a high degree of local autonomy, and a political system that can broadly be summarised as "democracy for some", that is, as an oligarchy. It is deeply racist, and engages in vigorous and brutal repression against those that would challenge it.

The Solomani Party is decentralised enough that it effectively consists of many local parties, whose sole criterion for being "Solomani" is a general loyalty to the Solomani state and Cause. Essentially, then, the Solomani Confederation is a multi-party state, where only parties that are able and willing to swear allegiance to the state can operate on an interstellar level. (There may be legal non-Solomani parties on certain worlds, but they can't operate at the level of the Confederation government).

OK. So, if we are looking for an analogue, it should possess these characteristics. There are plenty around.

The Confederate States of America are one possible fit, although they lacked a coherent secret police to fill the SolSec role. Not doubt, if there had been a period of cold war with the USA, one would have been developed.

Apartheid era South Africa is another. It was probably a bit more centralised, but possesses most of the other characteristics.

Israel is a lot more centralised.

The USA, prior to the Civil Rights movement, had many of these characteristics, too. Significant sections of the population were disenfranchised, and the political system was effectively monopolised by a very narrow range of factions.

And, of course, Australia had the White Australia policy...

Essentially, I see the Solomani Confederation was being "us", in "our" less enlightened moments. And it's not necessarily more evil than the Imperium...

 

[Andrew Boulton]

"And it's not necessarily more evil than the Imperium..."

That's one of the things I like about the OTU: there are no clear-cut good guys or bad guys. It looks like there are at first glance, but when you look closely it's all shades of grey.

 

[leadhead]

A lot of good points have been raised in this thread. Personally, I don't really see the Sollies as Bad Guys (tm) or the Imperium as Good Guys (tm). They are different but one is not necessarily any worse than the other.

The charge that the Solomani are racist is Imperial propaganda. The Solomani resisted economic domination by the Vilani megacorporations that held sway in the Grand Court of Sylea from the reign of Zhakirov on and for that they were branded as racist to give the Imperium an excuse for military intervention. (Similar to Lincoln's claim that the invasion of the southern states was about 'making men free', in point of fact, the Lincolns owned slaves though Mrs. Lincoln, Mary Todd. The Todd's made their living brokering slaves).

The Solomani government functions a lot like the early United States or the modern Arab League or European Union. A common currency, foriegn and defense policy but internal governance is left to the member states. As for the individual citizen, it makes little difference since both the Imperium and the Confederation will tolerate anything from a libertarian minarchy to a Hitlerian nightmare so long as the local leadership follows the political line laid down from Capital or Home. Neither state is overly concerned with the rights of individuals.

The Solomani Confederation is not democracy for some, at least no more than the Imperium is. If you are lucky enough to live on a world with a republican government that protects human (or whatever) rights then you are one of the happy few. That is true in either state.

The Solomani Cause isn't so much about human supremacy (the Imperium, Hive Federation, Heirate, Consulate and K'kree are at least as 'racist'. Only the Vargr have shown a willingness to follow a non-Vargr leader, as many function within human heirarchies. Aslan clans will swear fealty to the Emperor but will still live in segregated communities.) It's about Solomani nationalism and a desire to expel the Imperium from Solomani space. The Imperium is trying to hang on to the what the Solomani term 'the Occupied Zone' but the Vilani have no real attachment to the place, even in the heyday of the Ziru Sirka it was a backwater frontier (much like the way the Romans looked at Briton or Judea). The population is largely Solomani and the Rim is potentially a hotbed of rebellion. If the Solomani ever manage to create a strong, centralized, Confederal government they might even succeed in driving the Imperials out.

However, this is far from a given. Within the Imperium there is a clash of cultures, Vilani and Solomani. The peerage is dominated by ethnic Solomani, even the traditions of the Imperial court and military owe more to Solomani antecedents than Vilani ones. Outside of the domain of Vland, the Vilani are a minority in what many consider to be 'their' empire. Terra is as much the Imperial homeworld as the Solomani. It wouldn't surprise me if a majority of ethnic Solomani were Imperial subjects.

Like all republican governments, the Solomani seek to minimize ethnic and cultural differences in pursuit of political consensus. The Imperium, like many empires, can better tolerate ethnic diversity. All men are subject to the Emperor but they are subject under their own languages, religions and customs.

Truth is, we may write constitutions for global or interstellar states, but if we ever achieve such governments history suggests they will be Imperial in form.

It is likely that Imperial Solomani are as possessive of Terra as the Confederation itself and see themselves not as occupiers but as liberators, and if the article on the Terran Residual Force in Traveller's Digest is any guide, a fair plurality of Terran citizens may well agree with that assessment.

The modern Middle East may offer some examples. Most people think that the conflict is two monolithic blocs in opposition but the truth is more nuanced. The Bedouins (Muslim and Arab though they are) tend to side with the Israelis. Christian Arabs are also more likely to side with the Israelis. The Nurei Karta, a break-away branch of the Satmar Hasidic sect, are vitriolically anti-Zionist and side with the PLO (their leader serves as the PA's Minister for Jewish Affairs). Even among Muslims in the PA, many would rather live under the Israelis but out of fear of groups like Hamas, they keep their mouths shut. Some secularists would rather dispense with the Israeli state entirely and form a secular state of Palestine in confederation with the Arabs. Shimon Peres has floated this idea several times (though, to date, Israel's Labour Party has declined to officially endorse it)

Sound confusing? It is! Just like the politics of the Rim! Without casting either the Imperium or the Solomani as one side or the other in the Middle East conflict we can still use the political reality (so long as you don't get too opinionated about it) of the region to shed some light on the situation in the Rim; to whit..

Many, perhaps even most Solomani in the Imperium view Terra as theirs, after all they are Terrans too and Terra is their birthright (not to mention, possession is 9/10 of the law). Of course, within the Imperium there are those political factions that want to see some sort of accomodation of Solomani demands in the name of 'peace'. Likewise, in the Solomani Confederation and in the 'Occupied Zone' there are many who would rather live under Imperial rule (owing to ethnic or religious persecution under the Solomani) but are too afraid of the Rule of Terra and other groups to say anything.

There are also those who are ethnic Vilani who believe that the Imperium has no business being on Earth and the Imperials have enough space to call their own without occupying Solomani territory. Of course, their motives may not be altruistic, if the Imperium quits the Rim and creates a buffer zone between the Imperium and the SC, the demographics and balance of power in the Imperium would shift decidedly in the Vilani's favor. It wouldn't surprise me to find the most vocal advocates of staying in the Rim are themselves ethnic Solomani.

The Solomani are divided between quelling internal fights, getting along with the Imperium, and simultaneously encouraging and supressing anti-Imperial and anti-'collaborationist' terrorism. No wonder their Confederal government is on the verge of civil war. Within the SC, there are those who favor negotiating terms of reunion with the Imperium, also on the idea that if the entire Sphere was to be part of the Imperium, the balance of power would swing to the Solomani and by dint of popular demand, the Solomani would end up running (or at least strongly influencing) the Imperium.