THHeinrichT1@aol.com
SOC-9
At least one who doesn't turn every word as a penny.
.As to the Rest... IMTU is the Keyword here.
Is Solomani evil?
- Thread starter Cymew
- Start date
.As to the Rest... IMTU is the Keyword here.
Maladominus
SOC-14 1K
Both of you, if you have not already done so, NEED to read the JTAS #21 article "Destiny Within the Two Thousand Worlds"
Why is it special? Because it is one of the few canon OTU sources where a K'kree is IN-CHARACTER describing what his people are like.
In that article, a K'kree diplomat is giving an essay, he is giving a lengthy interview to a Human journalist.... and thus there is like 4+ pages of that K'kree diplomat's viewpoint based on what the K'kre think it is to be K'kree. The majority of that article comes from the candid thoughts of a K'kree diplomat/noble, one of the few who has frequent contacts with Humans.
When I read THAT article, I finally understood what was inside the minds of K'kree.
Why is it special? Because it is one of the few canon OTU sources where a K'kree is IN-CHARACTER describing what his people are like.
In that article, a K'kree diplomat is giving an essay, he is giving a lengthy interview to a Human journalist.... and thus there is like 4+ pages of that K'kree diplomat's viewpoint based on what the K'kre think it is to be K'kree. The majority of that article comes from the candid thoughts of a K'kree diplomat/noble, one of the few who has frequent contacts with Humans.
When I read THAT article, I finally understood what was inside the minds of K'kree.
I have. But I think most of it is an elaboration of the basic concepts already introduced in AM2. Interesting to see these concepts "in action" though, so to speak.
As far as the classifications here go, it makes it quite clear that the K'kree are neither "Nazis" nor do they kill for fun. They are fighting to make the world... err... universe safe for vegetarism, and they see this as being essential to true civilization - not only for them, but for all sentient beings.
But why go on? In all likelihood, Doug Berry has already made my points better than I could anyway.
Regards,
Tobias
THHeinrichT1@aol.com
SOC-9
Thanks Maladomius,
that was the article I was searching.
I couldn't recall where I read that interview. Now that I found the source again, it is much easier. I think it is the only OTU source giving such a clear view upon this specific race. Their mindset make them a challenging race to play, still i dislike them. I will not broaden this context though, because enough words were already exchanged in heated pointless debate.
I knew there was also a rebel reporter article given to the solomani during the rebelion era, that was also to enlighten the solomani point of view.
that was the article I was searching.
I couldn't recall where I read that interview. Now that I found the source again, it is much easier. I think it is the only OTU source giving such a clear view upon this specific race. Their mindset make them a challenging race to play, still i dislike them. I will not broaden this context though, because enough words were already exchanged in heated pointless debate.
I knew there was also a rebel reporter article given to the solomani during the rebelion era, that was also to enlighten the solomani point of view.
Maladominus
SOC-14 1K
The Solomani are not evil.
The just have a ONE-track mind.
Solomani Party propaganda
Solomani Confederation Marine in urban battledress.
Look closely at his left chest <grin>
The just have a ONE-track mind.
Solomani Party propaganda
Solomani Confederation Marine in urban battledress.
Look closely at his left chest <grin>
Jyhad = "Struggle" in arabic. Arabic has had surprisingly low linguistic drift.
Holy War, originator of: that distinction is lost in the sands of time.
Jihad as Holy War rather than Internal Struggle: Islam says it is the one true expression of god's plan, and all others are corruptions of Gods message. Many muslims think this means they need to take and convert the whole of the world, or even the universe, to Islam. Some take this a step further, and believe the call to struggle means to struggle violently, a connotation of jyhad which dates back to the struggles of Mohammed against the non-believers in his own life. Some say Mohammed himself encouraged violent acts to encourage conversion. It is the belief that Corrupt Faith must be eliminated by struggle, and that allowing it to continue is to allow it to win; therefore it must be eliminated by any means. All monotheistic religions at some point will trigger this response; that the founder of Islam took this approach makes it more palatable than in many other monotheistic religions. Add in mob mentality, and some hideous things can occur.
Muslims: Some muslims will probably still be shooting people 5000 years from now in the name of their god. Still others will decry them as traitors to the faith.
Judaism is 5000 years old; it may not be recognizable to the jews of 5000 years ago, but it still is a direct descendant. It is likely to continue another 5000. IMTU, Hasids can be seen in their black suits and black hats on several worlds in the Solomani rim, being as seclusionist as they can be now.
Crusades: social control instituted to reduce the "third son problem" by "reclaiming the holy land from the turks." In short, civil leaders sent off sons on a "religious war" in order to keep said sons from having families and splitting their father's lands.
Islamic Peoples: There are the ethnic arabs; the vast majority are now islamic, the rest tend toward catholocism. There are the moors: Black African muslims in spain. There are african muslims. There are three religious groups which can honestly claim persons of nearly every phenotypic group: Catholocism, Islam and Buddhism. All three believe their core belief applies universally, all three believe in active recruitment, all three have a core belief system which is not incompatible with strong religious-dominated governance. Two of the three believe their belief is incompatible with the other two; Buddhists don't claim sole reach to god, but technically don't deal with god either.
Islamic Sects: Big Name - Shiite and Suni (one traces authority to the son of Mohammed, the other to Mohammed's primary assistant), Sufi (Esoteric and pacifist sect, tends to ignore the biography of Mohammed, and thus the prediliction to violent jihad; Dervishes a subsect of Sufi), Nation of Islam (American additional revelation sect). There are dozens of other islamic sects, with various additional bits. Figure that the Suni and Shiite will have splintered further by the time of Traveller, so the question becomes "Which form of Shiite" or "Which form of Suni". Sufi would tend not to ask past, "Care to join our prayers to Allah?"
It is interesting to note that some Muslim scholars have said that Muslims on the moon will face when praying towards the spot the first muslim sets foot at. Same for other worlds. Lesser hajj to that point. Hajj to Mecca when possible. Why they put this forward, i don't know, but I suppose it was to provide information to gamers and science fiction authors, and to have a protocol just in case.
Oh, and the Late Pope John Paul II said in correspondence to Father John Fearon, O.P., "To be Catholic, one must only be a reasoning intelligent being, capable of understanding the sacraments. Why do you ask?" He asked about non humans due to a question elicited by a traveller game I ran... an Aslan discovered Terran Religion. We asked Fr. John, he didn't know, so he asked.
Figure all three of them will engender further split-offs in the next 5000 years; other forms of christianity, of the various types, will also probably survive and branch off. There is little doubt that Catholic, Islamic, and Buddhist religions will find expressions amongst other intelligent races. Envision, if you can, a Sufi Virush going on Hajj...
I've used the Hajj as an element of traveller games set in the Solomani Rim. In once game, it was the excuse for the journey from the marches: A wealthy muslim in the marches charters a ship to earth and back, to make the Hajj.
Similarly, Off-earth christians and jews will likely make pilgrimages to Earth.
Religion is a touchy subject in gaming; to be honest, it is often better ignored in science fiction. If you choose to include it, treat it respectfully, and tactfully, and it can be a rewarding tool.
I've tried to make sense out of the Solomani for some time. There are so many contradictions in the cannon that it makes it sort of difficult to get a read on them.
I feel that a lot of the friction between the Imperium and the Confederation goes to the inherent culture clash between them.
Start with economic systems; the Imperial economy is run by the 12 megacorporations. It is centrally run along the Vilani model. Local competitors are run out of business and anti-competitive business practices are the norm. In the confederation, a spirited capitalism has prevented the rise of an true megacorps, and local competition seems to be the norm.
Religion is another point of divergence. Most Imperial religions seem to be polytheistic. The Church of the Stars is presented as one of the most popular religions in the Imperium (even the emperor is interested in its tenants according to the canon). This would make the Imperial sunburst a religious as well as political symbol (just as crosses are used on many European flags, or the crescent and star on many Islamic nations flags, the 8 spoke wheel on India's flag, the rising sun on Japan's flag, the Star of David on Israel's flag, etc. etc.). The Confederation would be more monotheistic in outlook. No charge has been levied against the Solomani that the classical age pagan authorities didn't levy against the Jews and later the Christians. Belief in one G-d was arrogant enough but to deny the reality of the Olympians and thus the very basis of the Hellenic state was treasonous, racist, exclusivist and down-right unneighborly...
Of course, there is the nationalist perspective. Large portions of the Solomani sphere were never part of the Imperium and didn't want to be. The Imperium has wanted, since the days of Cleon I, to reincorporate all the territory of the 1st and 2nd Imperia. That means the 3I claims all of the Sphere as well as all of the Julian states besides the territory it currently (at least as of 1115) holds.
Then there's the racial perspective. If the ancients came to Earth 200000-300000 years ago and snagged humans to serve as slaves then according to evolutionary theory, they were snagging homo erectus or homo neanderthalis NOT homo sapiens. The Vilani really AREN'T modern humans but a different race entirely. That doesn't make them inferior necessarily (though the ancients did breed them to be a servitor race and they have only been free from ancient domination for a few hundred centuries) but it does make them a distinct species. Most Traveller art portrays Vilani as indistinguishable from modern man but this seems in accurate given the fluff. Just as no non-Aslan could ever run the Heirate nor a non-Hiver run the Federation, no non-Homo Sapiens should rule over Terra and her colonies that is the Solomani Cause in a nutshell and it doesn't seem so 'evil' to me.
I see a lot of the canon material as being the Imperial perspective of the Solomani (e.g. it's propaganda). In reality, SolSec is no more intrusive than the FBI. Yes, its a secret police force (as is the FBI) but no, it has better things to do than peep in the average citizen's windows. It is concerned with apprehending foriegn spies and protecting the legitimate national security of the Confederation. Abroad, it is no more immoral than the CIA or MI6. Yes, it will act to destabilize hostile foreign regimes... and the 3I doesn't seek to destabilize the Confederation or its member states?
The Solomani have a republic and its messy and dirty and theres a lot of political infighting... like any elected government in the world. Does that make them weaker than the Imperials? The Nazis had a unified, strong and centrally organized state with a better technology than their neighbors... yet it was the more loosely organized Americans and British who beat them into submission. The Imperial occupation of Earth is not necessarily a done deal and if you play the MT/TNE timeline, the aftermath of the collapse offers ripe ground for the future of Earth and her people.
Anyway, just my 2 cents worth
I feel that a lot of the friction between the Imperium and the Confederation goes to the inherent culture clash between them.
Start with economic systems; the Imperial economy is run by the 12 megacorporations. It is centrally run along the Vilani model. Local competitors are run out of business and anti-competitive business practices are the norm. In the confederation, a spirited capitalism has prevented the rise of an true megacorps, and local competition seems to be the norm.
Religion is another point of divergence. Most Imperial religions seem to be polytheistic. The Church of the Stars is presented as one of the most popular religions in the Imperium (even the emperor is interested in its tenants according to the canon). This would make the Imperial sunburst a religious as well as political symbol (just as crosses are used on many European flags, or the crescent and star on many Islamic nations flags, the 8 spoke wheel on India's flag, the rising sun on Japan's flag, the Star of David on Israel's flag, etc. etc.). The Confederation would be more monotheistic in outlook. No charge has been levied against the Solomani that the classical age pagan authorities didn't levy against the Jews and later the Christians. Belief in one G-d was arrogant enough but to deny the reality of the Olympians and thus the very basis of the Hellenic state was treasonous, racist, exclusivist and down-right unneighborly...
Of course, there is the nationalist perspective. Large portions of the Solomani sphere were never part of the Imperium and didn't want to be. The Imperium has wanted, since the days of Cleon I, to reincorporate all the territory of the 1st and 2nd Imperia. That means the 3I claims all of the Sphere as well as all of the Julian states besides the territory it currently (at least as of 1115) holds.
Then there's the racial perspective. If the ancients came to Earth 200000-300000 years ago and snagged humans to serve as slaves then according to evolutionary theory, they were snagging homo erectus or homo neanderthalis NOT homo sapiens. The Vilani really AREN'T modern humans but a different race entirely. That doesn't make them inferior necessarily (though the ancients did breed them to be a servitor race and they have only been free from ancient domination for a few hundred centuries) but it does make them a distinct species. Most Traveller art portrays Vilani as indistinguishable from modern man but this seems in accurate given the fluff. Just as no non-Aslan could ever run the Heirate nor a non-Hiver run the Federation, no non-Homo Sapiens should rule over Terra and her colonies that is the Solomani Cause in a nutshell and it doesn't seem so 'evil' to me.
I see a lot of the canon material as being the Imperial perspective of the Solomani (e.g. it's propaganda). In reality, SolSec is no more intrusive than the FBI. Yes, its a secret police force (as is the FBI) but no, it has better things to do than peep in the average citizen's windows. It is concerned with apprehending foriegn spies and protecting the legitimate national security of the Confederation. Abroad, it is no more immoral than the CIA or MI6. Yes, it will act to destabilize hostile foreign regimes... and the 3I doesn't seek to destabilize the Confederation or its member states?
The Solomani have a republic and its messy and dirty and theres a lot of political infighting... like any elected government in the world. Does that make them weaker than the Imperials? The Nazis had a unified, strong and centrally organized state with a better technology than their neighbors... yet it was the more loosely organized Americans and British who beat them into submission. The Imperial occupation of Earth is not necessarily a done deal and if you play the MT/TNE timeline, the aftermath of the collapse offers ripe ground for the future of Earth and her people.
Anyway, just my 2 cents worth
Maladominus
SOC-14 1K
I do agree with most of your comments, altho... technically, the Solomani Confederation is not a "republic". It's more of a federation, a much looser form of government than what we typically consider a republic. The Solomani government is more analogous to ex-Yugoslavia... which was a loose federation of semi-autonomous nations.
The only thing that all Yugos had in common was a Pan-Slavic nationalism as an ideal. And that was not enough to keep them united.
Likewise, the only thing that holds the Solomani Confederation together is that all member states are essentially run by descendants of Earth humans. If not for this Pan-Terran nationalism, there would be no common ingredient, and the Solomani Confederation would have collapsed long ago. This is why the Solomani Party and SolSec are important. They know that their Confederation can easily collapse if they do not keep reminding all citizens that they are One People.... united under one ancestry from Earth.
The only thing that all Yugos had in common was a Pan-Slavic nationalism as an ideal. And that was not enough to keep them united.
Likewise, the only thing that holds the Solomani Confederation together is that all member states are essentially run by descendants of Earth humans. If not for this Pan-Terran nationalism, there would be no common ingredient, and the Solomani Confederation would have collapsed long ago. This is why the Solomani Party and SolSec are important. They know that their Confederation can easily collapse if they do not keep reminding all citizens that they are One People.... united under one ancestry from Earth.
Rather, it was the extensive manpower of the Soviet Union which beat the Nazis into submission. What did the British do beside get their arses kicked and lose an Empire?
America could have stayed out of it and the Nazis would have still been wiped out by Uncle Stalin. They would have taken more losses without American supplies, but historically the Soviets suffered millions of casualties anyway and still won. WW2 was won by the USA and USSR, which isn't surprising considering directly afterwards they were the only Superpowers left in the world.
Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
"Rather, it was the extensive manpower of the Soviet Union which beat the Nazis into submission."
That was certainly a major factor.
"What did the British do beside get their arses kicked and lose an Empire?"
Other than the USSR, we were the only country to fight off a German attack. If we'd failed, Overlord would have been impossible. We also cracked Enigma, which came in handy.
The reason we lost most of the Empire was because we were fighting alone for a couple of years.
"America could have stayed out of it"
They tried...
"and the Nazis would have still been wiped out by Uncle Stalin."
Maybe, it's hard to say.
"WW2 was won by the USA and USSR, which isn't surprising considering directly afterwards they were the only Superpowers left in the world."
Might've been different if the USA had joined in late '39/early '40. Britain was stronger, USA was weaker, and USSR was one of the bad guys...
That was certainly a major factor.
"What did the British do beside get their arses kicked and lose an Empire?"
Other than the USSR, we were the only country to fight off a German attack. If we'd failed, Overlord would have been impossible. We also cracked Enigma, which came in handy.
The reason we lost most of the Empire was because we were fighting alone for a couple of years.
"America could have stayed out of it"
They tried...
"and the Nazis would have still been wiped out by Uncle Stalin."
Maybe, it's hard to say.
"WW2 was won by the USA and USSR, which isn't surprising considering directly afterwards they were the only Superpowers left in the world."
Might've been different if the USA had joined in late '39/early '40. Britain was stronger, USA was weaker, and USSR was one of the bad guys...
Maladominus has a point (I refuse to get sucked into the WWII debate)
The Solomani (or more accurately, the Terran) confederation is not a republic in the American sense it has many republican institutions. The General Assembly is elected (at least by the member states) and is at least answerable to the states which created it whereas the Moot is answerable to no one. The General Assembly is a law-making body and it elects the Secretary-General who appoints his secretariat with the advise and consent of the Assembly. The Moot is made of hereditary nobles and has only two powers; to examine the bonafides of a claimant to the throne and to dissolve the Imperium.
As for Pan-Terran nationalism being the only thing holding the confederacy together, I am not so sure. Certainly you can see it that way but I always envisioned the SC to be more like the CSA sans slavery. If you look at the CSA constitution, you will find that the CSA had better protection of individual rights (including those of free Blacks) than did the US constitution. Granted, aliens are viewed as a disadvantaged minority in the SC, but isn't the same true of the 3I? Sure, there are some token alien nobles, ruling a few areas where aliens are a majority (or at least a plurality) but did anyone take Brzk's claim to the Imperial Throne seriously? Would the 3I accept a non-human emperor? Would the Heirate accept a human leader? Would the Zhodani accept a Vilani leader? Would the Vilani, for that matter, accept Solomani leaders? After all, for the first 400 years of the Imperium's history, we has Vilani nobility working to break the power of Solomani leadership (who established the 3I in the first place). It would seem to me that the Solomani are no more racist in this regard than any other starfaring power. What holds the Imperium together if not some sort of racial nationalism? Loyalty to the throne? Tradition? Probably all three. Why wouldn't Solomani be loyal to their constitution? Their democratic ideal? This in addition to their racial affinity for one another.
Add the religious and nationalist elements already discussed and the Solomani are potentially as stable as the 3I and a credible threat. GDW and now SJG seems intent on keeping them cast as the bad guys but incapable of mounting a credible threat (space Nazis and later bumbling space Soviets). BOOOORING!
Yes, I am an unreconstructed Solomani sympathizer
The Solomani (or more accurately, the Terran) confederation is not a republic in the American sense it has many republican institutions. The General Assembly is elected (at least by the member states) and is at least answerable to the states which created it whereas the Moot is answerable to no one. The General Assembly is a law-making body and it elects the Secretary-General who appoints his secretariat with the advise and consent of the Assembly. The Moot is made of hereditary nobles and has only two powers; to examine the bonafides of a claimant to the throne and to dissolve the Imperium.
As for Pan-Terran nationalism being the only thing holding the confederacy together, I am not so sure. Certainly you can see it that way but I always envisioned the SC to be more like the CSA sans slavery. If you look at the CSA constitution, you will find that the CSA had better protection of individual rights (including those of free Blacks) than did the US constitution. Granted, aliens are viewed as a disadvantaged minority in the SC, but isn't the same true of the 3I? Sure, there are some token alien nobles, ruling a few areas where aliens are a majority (or at least a plurality) but did anyone take Brzk's claim to the Imperial Throne seriously? Would the 3I accept a non-human emperor? Would the Heirate accept a human leader? Would the Zhodani accept a Vilani leader? Would the Vilani, for that matter, accept Solomani leaders? After all, for the first 400 years of the Imperium's history, we has Vilani nobility working to break the power of Solomani leadership (who established the 3I in the first place). It would seem to me that the Solomani are no more racist in this regard than any other starfaring power. What holds the Imperium together if not some sort of racial nationalism? Loyalty to the throne? Tradition? Probably all three. Why wouldn't Solomani be loyal to their constitution? Their democratic ideal? This in addition to their racial affinity for one another.
Add the religious and nationalist elements already discussed and the Solomani are potentially as stable as the 3I and a credible threat. GDW and now SJG seems intent on keeping them cast as the bad guys but incapable of mounting a credible threat (space Nazis and later bumbling space Soviets). BOOOORING!
Actually, even today there are paleontologists who believe that Archaic Homo sapiens may date back 300,000 years ago (It was an even more popular theory back when Traveller was first written). But that's more or less irrelevant. The Traveller Universe is not an exact copy of the Real Universe. One difference is that there is incontrovertible evidence that descendents of populations that was removed from Earth 300,000 years ago are interfertile with Homo sapiens sapiens_. It follows that their common ancestor was also some form of Homo sapiens (GT:Humaniti calls it Homo sapiens antiquus).
The Vilani have been free of Ancient domination for about 99% of the time the Solomani have (290,000 years as opposed to 300,000 years)[*].
[*] Assuming, of course, that the Ancients didn't meddle with the populations on Earth, something that can never be more than an assumption.
No. It makes them a distinct subspecies (Homo sapiens vlandensis).
Solomani and Vilani are fully interfertile. The Solomani Cause makes as much sense as it ever makes for someone to impose his will on someone else for no other reason than that he thinks he's better than them.
Hans
daryen
SOC-14 1K
Do you have one scrap of canonical evidence for that claim? Please remember that your opinion is not fact.</font>[/QUOTE]Actually, one could reasonably conclude that monotheism suffers massive setbacks in the Traveller universe.
The main forms of monotheism on Earth are Judiasm, Christianity, and Islam. All three have very Earth-centric views of the universe and the discovery of extraterrestrial humans (much less extraterrestrial intelligent life) will be a massive blow that they might not be able to fully recover from.
Yes, all three would continue to exist. However, there broad base of support would be eliminated. Probably in fairly quick order.
(I am not saying religion would die. I am just saying that religion would undergo a massive transformation, the result of which we can only guess at.)
Ignoring the junk science argument that Homo Sapiens is really 300,000 years old the Vilani are NOT the same species as Terrestrial humanity. Yes, Traveller implies they are interfertile but this seems unlikely though in 5000 years some way of geneering cross-breeding would be possible.
Even if they were interfertile the religious divide would be a bigger point of contention than the racial one. After all, different races have lived together peacefully but monotheism has never lived comfortably with polytheism.
As for 'canon' proof, I don't really need any as the Sollies are allegedly US and monotheism is the dominant religious paradigm on Earth. However, in the Rebel Reporter in GDP's Traveller Digest that featured the Solomani point of view, Lawrence Trinoch the director of SolSec referenced the Holy Bible as a justification of a humano-centric government for the Sphere.
The vitriol of Hans' response suggests a personal hostility to Western religion which, of course, is his business but many people have counted the Jews out (and more recently, the Christians as well) and yet they remain important players on the world stage. While the discovery of extra-terrestrial intelligence would spark a lot of discussion in religious circles, it would be far from a death-blow. Catholic authority has already accepted that alien intelligence could be Catholic (and thus has a soul and a place in G-d's plan).
The Talmud has also, albeit indirectly, dealt with non-human intelligence and the consensus is similar to the position of the Roman Church.
I am not sure about Islamic opinion but I imagine they would also make shift as well.
Given this, I think its safe to assume that the Confederation remains largely Jewish/Christian/Islamic/Hindu/Buddhist
Naturally there will be new religious movements in the next 5000 years. In the last 100 years we've seen the creation of Scientology, the 'Jews for Jesus', the Branch Davidians and a host of smaller sects. The Hasidic movement really only dates from the early 1700's and the ministry of the Baal Shem Tov and in the past 300 years they have become a force to be reckoned with in Jewish circles and beyond.
Charismatic Protestantism really only dates from the mid-1700's and in the last 250 years has become the most influential Christian profession in the USA and is rapidly growing in Latin America, Africa and Asia.
Mormonism is less than 200 years old and is the wealthiest religous body in America (virtually controlling the state of Utah and having influence across the USA and the world).
Roman Catholicism as such really dates from 350 and the 2nd Council of Nicea and in 1650 years has become one of the largest human religions.
Islam dates from 621 and has become a force to be reckoned with, claiming 1.2 billion adherents rivalling Catholicism as the 2nd largest religious movement on Earth behind the world's 2 billion Christians.
Okay, enough history, so why would our star worshipping Imperials hate the monotheistic Solomani so much? Looking back at the ancient Greco-Romans upon whose empires the 3I was closely modeled, we find they too weren't comfortable with the Jews and later the Christians. Why? Well, polytheism is very flexible. If there are 12 gods living on Mt. Olympus why not another 12 in Valhalla and another 12 in the Nile Valley? Besides, a lot of these gods are similar. Everyone has a sky god, a sun god, a sea god, a trickster god, a love goddess, a moon goodess, etc. But along come the Jews and say 'all the gods of the nations are vanity' which is arrogant enough but then they have a law that says they cannot make sacrifices to the gods (supremists!!!) and that they are obligated to destroy pagan altars in their territory (butchers! oppressors!) and won't worship the state (traitors!)... sounds a lot like the charges leveled against the Solomani.
If the divide between the Vilani and Solomani is religious more than racial (and the more I think about it, the more sense it makes) the nature of the conflict is cultural and irresolvable. The Imperium will not be able to hold Solomani territory forever. They will be pushed out, slowly but surely. Of course, if Strephon is assassinated IYTU the Imperial withdrawal will be quicker...
Even if they were interfertile the religious divide would be a bigger point of contention than the racial one. After all, different races have lived together peacefully but monotheism has never lived comfortably with polytheism.
As for 'canon' proof, I don't really need any as the Sollies are allegedly US and monotheism is the dominant religious paradigm on Earth. However, in the Rebel Reporter in GDP's Traveller Digest that featured the Solomani point of view, Lawrence Trinoch the director of SolSec referenced the Holy Bible as a justification of a humano-centric government for the Sphere.
The vitriol of Hans' response suggests a personal hostility to Western religion which, of course, is his business but many people have counted the Jews out (and more recently, the Christians as well) and yet they remain important players on the world stage. While the discovery of extra-terrestrial intelligence would spark a lot of discussion in religious circles, it would be far from a death-blow. Catholic authority has already accepted that alien intelligence could be Catholic (and thus has a soul and a place in G-d's plan).
The Talmud has also, albeit indirectly, dealt with non-human intelligence and the consensus is similar to the position of the Roman Church.
I am not sure about Islamic opinion but I imagine they would also make shift as well.
Given this, I think its safe to assume that the Confederation remains largely Jewish/Christian/Islamic/Hindu/Buddhist
Naturally there will be new religious movements in the next 5000 years. In the last 100 years we've seen the creation of Scientology, the 'Jews for Jesus', the Branch Davidians and a host of smaller sects. The Hasidic movement really only dates from the early 1700's and the ministry of the Baal Shem Tov and in the past 300 years they have become a force to be reckoned with in Jewish circles and beyond.
Charismatic Protestantism really only dates from the mid-1700's and in the last 250 years has become the most influential Christian profession in the USA and is rapidly growing in Latin America, Africa and Asia.
Mormonism is less than 200 years old and is the wealthiest religous body in America (virtually controlling the state of Utah and having influence across the USA and the world).
Roman Catholicism as such really dates from 350 and the 2nd Council of Nicea and in 1650 years has become one of the largest human religions.
Islam dates from 621 and has become a force to be reckoned with, claiming 1.2 billion adherents rivalling Catholicism as the 2nd largest religious movement on Earth behind the world's 2 billion Christians.
Okay, enough history, so why would our star worshipping Imperials hate the monotheistic Solomani so much? Looking back at the ancient Greco-Romans upon whose empires the 3I was closely modeled, we find they too weren't comfortable with the Jews and later the Christians. Why? Well, polytheism is very flexible. If there are 12 gods living on Mt. Olympus why not another 12 in Valhalla and another 12 in the Nile Valley? Besides, a lot of these gods are similar. Everyone has a sky god, a sun god, a sea god, a trickster god, a love goddess, a moon goodess, etc. But along come the Jews and say 'all the gods of the nations are vanity' which is arrogant enough but then they have a law that says they cannot make sacrifices to the gods (supremists!!!) and that they are obligated to destroy pagan altars in their territory (butchers! oppressors!) and won't worship the state (traitors!)... sounds a lot like the charges leveled against the Solomani.
If the divide between the Vilani and Solomani is religious more than racial (and the more I think about it, the more sense it makes) the nature of the conflict is cultural and irresolvable. The Imperium will not be able to hold Solomani territory forever. They will be pushed out, slowly but surely. Of course, if Strephon is assassinated IYTU the Imperial withdrawal will be quicker...
daryen
SOC-14 1K
No one is talking about "junk" science. It was simply pointed out that, in the Traveller universe, it is known fact that humans transported by the Ancients were indeed homo sapiens. Whether this is true in our universe is irrelevant.
Also, it is fact that the various forms of humanity (with very few exceptions) are interfertile. Whether this "makes sense" is irrelevant; the various strains of humaniti are (generally) interfertile. Vilani and Solomani are interfertile. So, for that matter, are Darrians and Solomani (and the Darrians are arguably more divergent that the Vilani). No geneering involved. (Actually, when geneering is involved, it usually results in less interfertility.)
I have to say that I am not the biggest fan of GWB, but even I wouldn't equate the US with a jack-booted police state. That's a pretty heavy condemnation of the US.
For the record, I saw no such "vitriol". I merely saw him refuse to accept your opinion as fact.
If religion is the basis of the divide, then the nature of the conflict is cultural and difficult to resolve.
But you haven't really done anything to prove your point than to asert your opinions as fact and then be insulted when your opinions are not accepted as fact.
No one is talking about "junk" science. It was simply pointed out that, in the Traveller universe, it is known fact that humans transported by the Ancients were indeed homo sapiens. Whether this is true in our universe is irrelevant.</font>[/QUOTE]This would violate suspension of disbelief.
The Traveller universe suggests that ancient spacemen came to the Earth 300'000 years ago to transplant homo sapiens across the stars. If in our universe it is revealed that there were no homo sapiens 300'000 years ago on this planet, then by ALL rights that means the Traveller canon must be updated, since it is in error.
Also, given that Vilani and Solomani can interbreed, they MUST be of the same species. It is the very definition of the word.
That's all I'll say on the matter.
daryen
SOC-14 1K
If the Traveller canon must be updated, why must the only solutions proposed mean that all of the non-Solomani humans become (for all intents and purposes) non-humans?
It is an essential character of the Traveller universe that non-Solomani humans are truly human. It is embedded in the OTU, and a founding assumption. The meeting of the Vilani at Barnard is special because it is recognizable humans (i.e. "us") that the Solomani meet, not true aliens.
So, if something must change, why not change the dates instead? If 300,000 years doesn't work, pick a number that does and run with it. If a change is really must be made, I would rather see a change that impacts the backstory, rather than a change that impacts the current action.
Maladominus
SOC-14 1K
Agreed. The only thing that Classic Traveller canon needs to "update" are a few of the nonsensical dates. Here is what I mean:
Traveller canon says:
Tech Level 7 circa 1970 to 1970 (sample tech: pulse laser, hovercraft)
Tech Level 8 circa 1980 to 1989 (example: laser carbine)
Tech Level 9 circa 1990 to 2000 (sample tech: Jump Drives A to D, laser rifle)
Tech Level 10 Interstellar Community (sample tech: grav tanks)
source = Page 85, The Traveller Book, 1982.
By Marc Miller and GDW
It is now the Year 2005. Where the hell can I buy a personal Laser Rifle??? Does anyone know? And where can I buy a tech level 10 starship? According to Traveller history, they are now widely available on planet Earth!! Don't you all see the foolishness in taking "Traveller Timelines" seriously? =)
Traveller canon says:
Tech Level 7 circa 1970 to 1970 (sample tech: pulse laser, hovercraft)
Tech Level 8 circa 1980 to 1989 (example: laser carbine)
Tech Level 9 circa 1990 to 2000 (sample tech: Jump Drives A to D, laser rifle)
Tech Level 10 Interstellar Community (sample tech: grav tanks)
source = Page 85, The Traveller Book, 1982.
By Marc Miller and GDW
It is now the Year 2005. Where the hell can I buy a personal Laser Rifle??? Does anyone know? And where can I buy a tech level 10 starship? According to Traveller history, they are now widely available on planet Earth!! Don't you all see the foolishness in taking "Traveller Timelines" seriously? =)
