K'kree as a Threat

[Tobias]

Re: Building K'kree warships

I tried it, and it is possible... sorta.
For jump-capable craft, these will generally have lower jump numbers and will be larger than equally capable Imperial craft. Here is an example battleship. It is roughly as combat capable as a Plankwell, but has only half the jump rating and is three times as large.

Ship: Rr´nxing
Class: Rr´nxing
Type: Battleship
Architect: (I *think* it was me, but I found it in my HGS folder with a gobful of other designs, so I can't rightly remember)
Tech Level: 15

USP
EX-V6248J4-A99909-999T9-0 MCr 409,647.200 600 KTons
Bat Bear V F UVV1Z Crew: 4626
Bat Z Y XZZ1W TL: 15

Cargo: 23,828.000 Fuel: 168,000.000 EP: 48,000.000 Agility: 4 Shipboard Security Detail: 600
Craft: 10 x 1000T Ferry
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x Model/9fib Computer 1 x Factor 9 Nuclear Damper 1 x Factor 9 Meson Screen
Substitutions: U = 28 V = 50 W = 200 X = 56 Y = 30 Z = 100

Architects Fee: MCr 4,096.472 Cost in Quantity: MCr 327,717.760

Regards,

Tobias

 

[marginaleye]

USP
EX-V6248J4-A99909-999T9-0 MCr 409,647.200 600 KTons
Bat Bear V F UVV1Z Crew: 4626
Bat Z Y XZZ1W TL: 15

Cargo: 23,828.000 Fuel: 168,000.000 EP: 48,000.000 Agility: 4 Shipboard Security Detail: 600
Craft: 10 x 1000T Ferry
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x Model/9fib Computer 1 x Factor 9 Nuclear Damper 1 x Factor 9 Meson Screen
Substitutions: U = 28 V = 50 W = 200 X = 56 Y = 30 Z = 100

Architects Fee: MCr 4,096.472 Cost in Quantity: MCr 327,717.760

MCr327,718, for one 600,000 dton "Plankwell-equivalent." I don't have a copy of "Supplement 9: Fighting Ships" handy, but according to the Internet, a 500,000 dton "Tigress" class Imperial dreadnaught costs only MCr362,721. The "Tigress" is faster (both tactically and strategically), more heavily armored, and carries 300 fighters, too.

No, I don't think the K'kree pose any direct military threat to any of their non-claustrophobic neighbors -- and their reputation as potentially-genocidal xenophobes is so bad that I have a hard time imagining them having much success recruiting non-K'kree agents to conduct clandestine espionage/subversion campaigns, either. No, I basically seem them as concentrating on grabbing as many systems as they can to Trailing, lest the Hivers (and, perhaps, the carnivorous Vargr) out-flank them. Crush any non-starfaring civilizations, encircle and suffocate any pocket empires they run into "out there" -- that's about the best they can do.

 

[Falkayn]

Originally posted by marginaleye:
My question, what minimal chance to the canon can one make, to make "white hat" K'kree possible? I have my doubts, personally, about the whole "everyone sticks together, all the time" thing. Aren't there quite a few terrestrial herd animals, in which most males live basically solitary lives, and only the females, offspring, and a few dominant mature males stick together in cohesive herds? And getting to mate means competing with, and overthrowing, one of those dominant males. "Tweaking" the K'kree to follow that pattern would (a) create a group of restless, isolation-tolerant, and probably very ambitious individuals, and (b) create a force for change and competition in K'kree society.

Some of the problems with K'Kree may be cultural bias ... perhaps a Human from a more structured traditionalist/controlled culture (e.g. Vilani, Zhodani) might find the K'Kree lovely fellows to hang out with.

Us Solomani do tend to prefer people that like change, live dangerously and are incredible loners. Even within Solomani cultures there can be extreme differences in the importance of family. I know my wife's Greek family place hugely more importance on family life than my own Anglo-Saxon ones do.

I think I'd play the K'Kree as kind of like Arab merchants on the Silk Road several centuries ago. They are interesting people whose culture rarely interests those they meet. There are elements of their culture that when properly understood are admirable (family stability, good standard of living for all, valuing the group itself and striving to protect it), but you don't need to know about those to profit from dealing with them. They take a heck of a lot with them when they travel, but then they seem comfortable settling down just about anywhere for long periods of time (bedouin tents/nomadic culture vs K'Kree ships). They have some sticky social mores, but then you won't find those out unless you interact socially (eat with them) - some basic ideas of decency need to be learned (your left hand is taboo - it's used for wiping your a$$ vs K'Kree carnivore dislikes).

Not a lot needs to change to canon references, except for perhaps having the K'Kree willing to deal with meat-eaters on a basic level (whihc according to several canon adventures seems to happen).

 

[Tobias]

Originally posted by Falkayn:
Some of the problems with K'Kree may be cultural bias ... perhaps a Human from a more structured traditionalist/controlled culture (e.g. Vilani, Zhodani) might find the K'Kree lovely fellows to hang out with.

I dunno, especially about the Zhodani. Both the Zhodani and the K'kree have very steadfast beliefs of superiority, the Zhodani cultural and the K'Kree racial. The Zhodani would at best regard the K'Kree as utterly incomprehensible, and at worst as a hostile, mentally sick culture. This depends on how much the K'kree social structure is seen as racially based.

In any case, I'd like to echo the statements of most of you guys: The K'Kree are to interesting too be wasted as the butt of jokes.
I also think that they are not Nazis, not Ancient Chinese, or any other Earth culture.
They are Aliens. Their way of thinking is incomprehensible to humans - not the "fascinating, let's transcend cultural barriers" kind of incomprehensible, but the "scary, let's fortify the borders" kind.

Regards,

Tobias

 

[Redleg58]

"K'kree ought to be an utterly crippling disadvantage when it comes to naval architecture -- bad for capital ships, and even worse for troop transports. While it's theoretically possible to envision some kind of psychological conditioning program to enable K'kree to pack themselves in as tightly as everyone else does, the K'kree are so unthinkingly conservative they wouldn't dare. "
______________________________________________
I'm of the opinion that K'kree society although admittedly conservative in the extreme their leadership may not be. All leaders after all become or stay such from both their charisma an ability to think outside the box.

With that in mind, would not cryogenics be a useful remedy for troopships? I see two obvious advantages to this practice.One space and the other as you revive the troops just prior to debarkation. Their natural response to confined spaces would elicit their fight/flight response. So when they land they are highly agitated...not a necessarily bad thing.

As for thier warships I tend to think they would
rely on automation and robotics far more than other races. Thereby reducing the size and need of crew and their accommodations.

Just a few possibilities.

 

[Tobias]

Originally posted by Don M aka Redleg:
I'm of the opinion that K'kree society although admittedly conservative in the extreme their leadership may not be. All leaders after all become or stay such from both their charisma an ability to think outside the box.

Actually, you become a K'kree leader by birth.

With that in mind, would not cryogenics be a useful remedy for troopships? I see two obvious advantages to this practice.One space and the other as you revive the troops just prior to debarkation.

Cold sleep is absolutely abhorrent to K'Kree.

Their natural response to confined spaces would elicit their fight/flight response. So when they land they are highly agitated...not a necessarily bad thing.

You're a soldier. Do you think it would make a soldier fight better if you paralyzed him and "accidently" buried him alive, then let him out after 24 hours of steadily injecting hallicinogenic gas into the coffin?
Confinement doesn't make K'Kree angry. It drives them insane.

Regards,

Tobias

 

[Redleg58]

Originally posted by Tobias:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />

Actually, you become a K'kree leader by birth.

That's why I said stay....birth might get you there, staying is the trick.

Cold sleep is absolutely abhorrent to K'Kree.

That I didn't know.

You're a soldier. Do you think it would make a soldier fight better if you paralyzed him and "accidently" buried him alive, then let him out after 24 hours of steadily injecting hallicinogenic gas into the coffin?
Confinement doesn't make K'Kree angry. It drives them insane.

Well I figured they would be heavily sedated prior to being brought aboard. Yes I was a
career soldier and as a rational person can see cryogenics as a useful device in long term space travel. BTW fear kept me alive more than once.

In the K'Kree's case might not the hallicinogenic gas project the vision of an open prairie in their sleeping mind?

The confinement I was referring to was the gym sized assembly area. A bit tight for them
....just enough to get them edgy.

The only other option would be to make their troop ships so vast that both price and practicality would be prohibitive.


</font>[/QUOTE]

 

[Tobias]

Originally posted by Don M aka Redleg:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Cold sleep is absolutely abhorrent to K'Kree.

That I didn't know.</font>[/QUOTE]I think it is because of the isolation, confinement and lack of nearby warm bodies while sleeping.
I might be misremembering it, but it sounds logical.

Well I figured they would be heavily sedated prior to being brought aboard. Yes I was a
career soldier and as a rational person can see cryogenics as a useful device in long term space travel. BTW fear kept me alive more than once.

Fear is probably a very useful mechanism when applied in its intended way: As a reaction to a real identified danger.
K'Kree, however, seem to have a very specific instinctual fear of enclosed spaces, an inborn phobia, if you will. There is no human equivalent to this.

The only other option would be to make their troop ships so vast that both price and practicality would be prohibitive.

That will probably be the only option. It can be partially circumvented by making heavy use of robot drones, both in a vehicular and an infantry role.

Regards,

Tobias

 

[Redleg58]

Originally posted by Tobias:
I think it is because of the isolation, confinement and lack of nearby warm bodies while sleeping.I might be misremembering it, but it sounds logical.

K'Kree, however, seem to have a very specific instinctual fear of enclosed spaces, an inborn phobia, if you will. There is no human equivalent to this.

That will probably be the only option. It can be partially circumvented by making heavy use of robot drones, both in a vehicular and an infantry role.
[Tobias

This may be slightly off track but. Given their phobia, one is left to wonder how the K'kree got to be a space faring race.They certainly did not go with the earth like first attempts to brake away from planetary gravity.With the first small manned craft like the Mercury and others. I'm left to wonder how they did it,I'm thinking they must have by passed it with outside help.

Could be an interesting scenario if nothing else....just a thought.

 

[Tobias]

Originally posted by Don M aka Redleg:
This may be slightly off track but. Given their phobia, one is left to wonder how the K'kree got to be a space faring race.They certainly did not go with the earth like first attempts to brake away from planetary gravity.With the first small manned craft like the Mercury and others. I'm left to wonder how they did it,I'm thinking they must have by passed it with outside help.

That's an interesting question indeed. My guess is that they explored their homesystem largely with unmanned craft, and that manned space exploration only began at TL10 or 11 when large, grav-powered space cruisers became a possibility.

Regards,

Tobias

 

[Redleg58]

Originally posted by Tobias:

That's an interesting question indeed. My guess is that they explored their homesystem largely with unmanned craft, and that manned space exploration only began at TL10 or 11 when large, grav-powered space cruisers became a possibility.

Regards,

Tobias


Another fascinating (more so in game terms) possibility is the K'kree unearthed some
vault of knowledge/database belonging to the Ancients.This jump started their conquest
of space....Could be interesting either way
you run it.

 

[T. Foster]

The canonical account (IIRC) is that the k'kree developed gravitics before spaceflight. There's also an account (can't remember if its in AM2 or only in Lords of Thunder) that the k'kree expansion into space was spurred by their discovery of intelligent carnivores on one of the moons of Kirur.

 

[marginaleye]

Lots and lots of warbots is the only really plausible solution I can see to the transportation problem imposed by K'kree claustrophobia. Huge warbot-armies, very lightly sprinkled with actual K'kree. But, wait, the K'kree not only hate being enclosed, they hate being alone, too, and I doubt warbots would satisfy their handlers' inborn need for herd-companionship. I suspect that on a high-tech battlefield, the instinctive desire not to spread out is, well, a big disadvantage (K'kree psychology would work well for spear-wielding hoplite-style combat, or musket-and-pike squares, however).

Setting that problem aside for a moment, K'kree warbot command-and-control might be interesting. I'm envisioning warbots that are individually pretty stupid, but are designed with a sort of "cumulative dispersed intelligence." A clash between Hiver and K'kree warbot armies (designed with radically different philosophies) would be interesting.

Another problem: One of the standard jobs of shipboard troops is to board enemy vessels. There's yet another thing that the K'kree can't do effectively.

 

[roygbiv]

Originally posted by marginaleye:
Another problem: One of the standard jobs of shipboard troops is to board enemy vessels. There's yet another thing that the K'kree can't do effectively.

How do you know that the K'kree don't just bombard a ship until it's a glowing hulk?

Either that, or could they use a subject race as marines?

 

[Tobias]

Originally posted by roygbiv:
How do you know that the K'kree don't just bombard a ship until it's a glowing hulk?

This is probably the preferred option. K'Kree have little respect for other species' lives anyway.

Either that, or could they use a subject race as marines?

I dunno. K'Kree usually don't trust their servant races with weapons. But again, you can use robot drones.

Regards,

Tobias

 

[Tobias]

Originally posted by T. Foster:
The canonical account (IIRC) is that the k'kree developed gravitics before spaceflight. There's also an account (can't remember if its in AM2 or only in Lords of Thunder) that the k'kree expansion into space was spurred by their discovery of intelligent carnivores on one of the moons of Kirur.

A check of AM2 reveals you are correct. Further interesting facts:
- K'kree indeed do not use cold sleep (AM2)
- K'kree warbots are not true robots, but drones of extremely limited intelligence, remote controlled by K'Kree (Book 8)

Regards,

Tobias

 

[Ran Targas]

Well, it's a good thing we all know how to whipe out semi-autonomous droid armies! Finally, an excuse to import Gungans to Trav! Who has the d20 stats for JarJar?

 

[Redleg58]

Originally posted by Ran Targas:
Well, it's a good thing we all know how to whipe out semi-autonomous droid armies! Finally, an excuse to import Gungans to Trav! Who has the d20 stats for JarJar?

Wasn't ruining one and a half movies enough damage....

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Tobias:
Cold sleep is absolutely abhorrent to K'Kree.

Not true. There's a story in one of the print JTAS' where a human ship is carrying a K'Kree family in low berth. (Good story, BTW. Someone has sabotaged the berths and the crew is forced to revive the whole family. As you can imagine, this presents them with some major problems!)


Hans

 

[saulweaver]

As far as the viability and flexibility of drone fighters, the F-22 has been desribed as the USAF's last manned fighter.