LBB2 and Jump-6

[Renard Ruche]

I have seen, in the recent past, a few posts saying that, according to LBB2; you can build a Jump-6 drive vessel at TL9

I hate to be the wet blanket, but that is not exactly so. Although you can get to J-6 a bit earlier than in HG+, it is at TL12, not TL9 (though I would assume it's theoretically possible - computer power is not up to it...see next paragraph).

According to Starter Traveller (which is what I have handy), the computer model number must equal or exceed the Jump rating. Model 6 is not available until TL12. At TL9, the highest model computer that can be built is Model 3.

Of course, this leads to the question...why did the Vilani only have J-2 at time of contact? I mean, even with cultural coservatism, it would seem that they would be able to go beyond J-2.

Question, comments, concerns?

 

[Renard Ruche]

I have seen, in the recent past, a few posts saying that, according to LBB2; you can build a Jump-6 drive vessel at TL9

I hate to be the wet blanket, but that is not exactly so. Although you can get to J-6 a bit earlier than in HG+, it is at TL12, not TL9 (though I would assume it's theoretically possible - computer power is not up to it...see next paragraph).

According to Starter Traveller (which is what I have handy), the computer model number must equal or exceed the Jump rating. Model 6 is not available until TL12. At TL9, the highest model computer that can be built is Model 3.

Of course, this leads to the question...why did the Vilani only have J-2 at time of contact? I mean, even with cultural coservatism, it would seem that they would be able to go beyond J-2.

Question, comments, concerns?

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Renard Ruche:
I have seen, in the recent past, a few posts saying that, according to LBB2; you can build a Jump-6 drive vessel at TL9

[...]

I'm not an expert in LBB2 design, but the computer model requirement is fairly well known.

Can you link to the claim that J-6 LBB2 designs can be done at TL-9?

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Renard Ruche:
I have seen, in the recent past, a few posts saying that, according to LBB2; you can build a Jump-6 drive vessel at TL9

[...]

I'm not an expert in LBB2 design, but the computer model requirement is fairly well known.

Can you link to the claim that J-6 LBB2 designs can be done at TL-9?

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by Renard Ruche:
I have seen, in the recent past, a few posts saying that, according to LBB2; you can build a Jump-6 drive vessel at TL9

Renard,

That's right, LBB:2 says you can build a jump6 vessel at TL9.

I hate to be the wet blanket... (snip of the usual computer size argument) Question, comments, concerns?

Okay, we need to remember that LBB:2 and HG2 are not exactly the same thing. Mull over this:

- HG2 requires a computer's size must equal the attempted jump distance and Size 6 computers are not available until TL12.

- LBB:2 requires that a computer be large enough to run the proper 'generate' and 'jump' programs. At size 2 for both, a Model 1 TL5 computer is large enough to run either.

Why is this? There's a few reasons. The first reason has to do with game design.

HG2 is a large scale combat system involving large numbers of large starships. It's a wargame in which only four Traveller RPG skills are mentioned; fleet tactics, ships tactics, pilot, and ship's boat, and then can only be used in very limited ways. Too many details; like programming a computer, would bog down the game and so get glossed over.

LBB:2 is small scale combat system involving a few numbers of 'PC-scale' ships. It's role-playing combat that personally involves individual players in critical actions that their character's skill can effect. Detail; such as programming a computer, is a key part of the game.

The second reason is a meta-game one.

HG2 is written to allow the players to explore the 'march of technology' in the ship design system. We see items like power plants, drives, and weapons improve and see items like dampers and meson screens be invented. HG2 covers the technological history of the OTU from TL9 to TL15.

LBB:2 does not display any such advancement in it's ship design system. The only ship components with TLs listed are computers and we've already seen that a Model 1 can control jump6 according to LBB:2. You'll notice that none of the standard starships and spaceships in LBB;2 have TLs listed. This book, like the rest of the Three LBBs presumes the bog standard Imperial TL15 and TLs are only listed with refrence to their TL of development; you don't really believe the shotgun you bought on that TL14 world was manufactured with TL5 methods, do you?

Finally, jump6 drives may very well be able to be manufactured at TL9. Please note, I said manufactured and not discovered or developed.

There are plenty of Real World examples of this. I can use apair of TL0 clay pots, some sand, and some water to create a 'refridgerator'. Of course in order to know that such a 'fridge' could be made, we first needed to develop TL4 or 5 thermodynamics and, in fact, this particular thermodynamic trick wasn't even thought of until a decade or so ago at TL7 or 8! (It was developed to keep vaccines cool is various Third World regions that don't have a steady electrical supply.)

Following the Real World example of 'Look Back' tech effect, it is entirely plausible that items discovered or developed at one TL can then be manufactured at a lower TL.

The upshot? A jump6 vessel can be made at a TL9 world. When discussing planetary navies, Traveller and HG2 says as much as starport ratings have nothing to do with whether a world has a navy or not.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by Renard Ruche:
I have seen, in the recent past, a few posts saying that, according to LBB2; you can build a Jump-6 drive vessel at TL9

Renard,

That's right, LBB:2 says you can build a jump6 vessel at TL9.

I hate to be the wet blanket... (snip of the usual computer size argument) Question, comments, concerns?

Okay, we need to remember that LBB:2 and HG2 are not exactly the same thing. Mull over this:

- HG2 requires a computer's size must equal the attempted jump distance and Size 6 computers are not available until TL12.

- LBB:2 requires that a computer be large enough to run the proper 'generate' and 'jump' programs. At size 2 for both, a Model 1 TL5 computer is large enough to run either.

Why is this? There's a few reasons. The first reason has to do with game design.

HG2 is a large scale combat system involving large numbers of large starships. It's a wargame in which only four Traveller RPG skills are mentioned; fleet tactics, ships tactics, pilot, and ship's boat, and then can only be used in very limited ways. Too many details; like programming a computer, would bog down the game and so get glossed over.

LBB:2 is small scale combat system involving a few numbers of 'PC-scale' ships. It's role-playing combat that personally involves individual players in critical actions that their character's skill can effect. Detail; such as programming a computer, is a key part of the game.

The second reason is a meta-game one.

HG2 is written to allow the players to explore the 'march of technology' in the ship design system. We see items like power plants, drives, and weapons improve and see items like dampers and meson screens be invented. HG2 covers the technological history of the OTU from TL9 to TL15.

LBB:2 does not display any such advancement in it's ship design system. The only ship components with TLs listed are computers and we've already seen that a Model 1 can control jump6 according to LBB:2. You'll notice that none of the standard starships and spaceships in LBB;2 have TLs listed. This book, like the rest of the Three LBBs presumes the bog standard Imperial TL15 and TLs are only listed with refrence to their TL of development; you don't really believe the shotgun you bought on that TL14 world was manufactured with TL5 methods, do you?

Finally, jump6 drives may very well be able to be manufactured at TL9. Please note, I said manufactured and not discovered or developed.

There are plenty of Real World examples of this. I can use apair of TL0 clay pots, some sand, and some water to create a 'refridgerator'. Of course in order to know that such a 'fridge' could be made, we first needed to develop TL4 or 5 thermodynamics and, in fact, this particular thermodynamic trick wasn't even thought of until a decade or so ago at TL7 or 8! (It was developed to keep vaccines cool is various Third World regions that don't have a steady electrical supply.)

Following the Real World example of 'Look Back' tech effect, it is entirely plausible that items discovered or developed at one TL can then be manufactured at a lower TL.

The upshot? A jump6 vessel can be made at a TL9 world. When discussing planetary navies, Traveller and HG2 says as much as starport ratings have nothing to do with whether a world has a navy or not.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
Can you link to the claim that J-6 LBB2 designs can be done at TL-9?

RoS,

Check out my post above.

Putting it simply, there are no TLs listed for drives in LBB:2 and a Model 1 computer is large enough to (separately) run 'Generate' and 'Jump6'.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
Can you link to the claim that J-6 LBB2 designs can be done at TL-9?

RoS,

Check out my post above.

Putting it simply, there are no TLs listed for drives in LBB:2 and a Model 1 computer is large enough to (separately) run 'Generate' and 'Jump6'.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[boomslang]

Putting it simply, there are no TLs listed for drives in LBB:2 and a Model 1 computer is large enough to (separately) run 'Generate' and 'Jump6'.

Actually, the relevant content is in LBB:3 under the discussion of Tech Levels. As part of the explanation, there's a big broadside-page timeline/chart breaking down what equipment is available when; the assorted drive letters are all listed there, in small groups.

In practice, it is effectively impossible to build a J-6 starship below TL15 simply due to the honkin' huge powerplant fuel requirements. Your only real options are an 800-to-2000 dton hull and a Y or better j-drive (which is not available until TL15 in the aforementioned table).

As a consolation, one can still pull off some pretty impressive stunts at lower TLs -- I built a replacement J-4 Xboat that's strictly legal and TL10, for example (waiting only on the comp model/4 to become available then). J-5 is doable a TL or two thereafter, depending on your operational requirements.

The real jam in B2 ship design is that it's hard to build anything bigger than 1000 dtons that's non-pokey (greater than level-3 performance) until you get to TL13 or better... "small ship" TU, indeed...

 

[boomslang]

Putting it simply, there are no TLs listed for drives in LBB:2 and a Model 1 computer is large enough to (separately) run 'Generate' and 'Jump6'.

Actually, the relevant content is in LBB:3 under the discussion of Tech Levels. As part of the explanation, there's a big broadside-page timeline/chart breaking down what equipment is available when; the assorted drive letters are all listed there, in small groups.

In practice, it is effectively impossible to build a J-6 starship below TL15 simply due to the honkin' huge powerplant fuel requirements. Your only real options are an 800-to-2000 dton hull and a Y or better j-drive (which is not available until TL15 in the aforementioned table).

As a consolation, one can still pull off some pretty impressive stunts at lower TLs -- I built a replacement J-4 Xboat that's strictly legal and TL10, for example (waiting only on the comp model/4 to become available then). J-5 is doable a TL or two thereafter, depending on your operational requirements.

The real jam in B2 ship design is that it's hard to build anything bigger than 1000 dtons that's non-pokey (greater than level-3 performance) until you get to TL13 or better... "small ship" TU, indeed...

 

[mike wightman]

A jump 6 100t ship can be built at TL 9 in first edition CT.
There is no computer model restriction, that was introduced in revised edition.
It can't fly, though, because there's no place for a crew stateroom.

A completely automatic x-boat perhaps?

Or build a 200t jump 6 ship at TL10 instead

And speaking of the x-boat, the Supplement 7 version is built under first edition rules, so lacks a power plant, and only has a 1bis computer

The TLs for the drives ar given in LBB3.
Again, there is a difference between versions of CT.

In first edition the entry for TL9 says Starships, while for TL10 it says drives H or less.
In revised edition it says at TL9 drives A-D, and at TL10 it gives drives E-H.

 

[mike wightman]

A jump 6 100t ship can be built at TL 9 in first edition CT.
There is no computer model restriction, that was introduced in revised edition.
It can't fly, though, because there's no place for a crew stateroom.

A completely automatic x-boat perhaps?

Or build a 200t jump 6 ship at TL10 instead

And speaking of the x-boat, the Supplement 7 version is built under first edition rules, so lacks a power plant, and only has a 1bis computer

The TLs for the drives ar given in LBB3.
Again, there is a difference between versions of CT.

In first edition the entry for TL9 says Starships, while for TL10 it says drives H or less.
In revised edition it says at TL9 drives A-D, and at TL10 it gives drives E-H.

 

[mike wightman]

200t courier, LBB2 first edition design.
200t streamlined hull
bridge ...20t
j drive F 35t
fuel ....120t
m drive A..1t
p plant A..4t
fuel .....10t
1bcomputer 1t
2xst.room..8t
turret.....1t

Totally useless, but you can build it at TL10.

 

[mike wightman]

200t courier, LBB2 first edition design.
200t streamlined hull
bridge ...20t
j drive F 35t
fuel ....120t
m drive A..1t
p plant A..4t
fuel .....10t
1bcomputer 1t
2xst.room..8t
turret.....1t

Totally useless, but you can build it at TL10.

 

[boomslang]

A jump 6 100t ship can be built at TL 9 in first edition CT.

Ah, but 1st Ed. CT is generally considered "non-canonical" due to its notion that j-drives didn't need powerplants (hence the mysterious original Xboat and its all-in-one j-drive, plus the original Type A2 with j-drive-B and m-drive-A with powerplant-A). You can do all sorts of amazing tricks under the early rules...

In first edition the entry for TL9 says Starships, while for TL10 it says drives H or less.
In revised edition it says at TL9 drives A-D, and at TL10 it gives drives E-H.

But either way, it does restrict them in the later, revised editions...

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by boomslang:
In practice, it is effectively impossible to build a J-6 starship below TL15 simply due to the honkin' huge powerplant fuel requirements. Your only real options are an 800-to-2000 dton hull and a Y or better j-drive (which is not available until TL15 in the aforementioned table.

This is once again edition specific.
In first edition the power plant had to be a minimum of the same rating as the maneuver drive.
Leave out the maneuver drive and you can leave out the power plant... and its fuel requirement

 

[boomslang]

A jump 6 100t ship can be built at TL 9 in first edition CT.

Ah, but 1st Ed. CT is generally considered "non-canonical" due to its notion that j-drives didn't need powerplants (hence the mysterious original Xboat and its all-in-one j-drive, plus the original Type A2 with j-drive-B and m-drive-A with powerplant-A). You can do all sorts of amazing tricks under the early rules...

In first edition the entry for TL9 says Starships, while for TL10 it says drives H or less.
In revised edition it says at TL9 drives A-D, and at TL10 it gives drives E-H.

But either way, it does restrict them in the later, revised editions...

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by boomslang:
In practice, it is effectively impossible to build a J-6 starship below TL15 simply due to the honkin' huge powerplant fuel requirements. Your only real options are an 800-to-2000 dton hull and a Y or better j-drive (which is not available until TL15 in the aforementioned table.

This is once again edition specific.
In first edition the power plant had to be a minimum of the same rating as the maneuver drive.
Leave out the maneuver drive and you can leave out the power plant... and its fuel requirement

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by boomslang:
Ah, but 1st Ed. CT is generally considered "non-canonical" due to its notion that j-drives didn't need powerplants (hence the mysterious original Xboat and its all-in-one j-drive, plus the original Type A2 with j-drive-B and m-drive-A with powerplant-A). You can do all sorts of amazing tricks under the early rules...

So Traders and Gunboats is non-canonical?

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by boomslang:
Ah, but 1st Ed. CT is generally considered "non-canonical" due to its notion that j-drives didn't need powerplants (hence the mysterious original Xboat and its all-in-one j-drive, plus the original Type A2 with j-drive-B and m-drive-A with powerplant-A). You can do all sorts of amazing tricks under the early rules...

So Traders and Gunboats is non-canonical?