LBB2 and Jump-6

[Whipsnade]

Gents,

A couple of points:

- What TL drives appear at depends on what CT version you're using.

- What []CT[/i] tech levels actually mean in the context of the OTU has never really been cleared up. Given that the OTU presupposes free trade within the Imperium, the idea that a TL1 world exists next door to a TL15 world is just plain silly. Unless we're supposed to believe the Imperium is full of neo-luddites that is.

The 'Look Back' tech effect excuse is admitedly a tenuous one, but I haven't seen anything yet that can 'explain' LBB:2's TL9 jump6 ships.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

Gents,

A couple of points:

- What TL drives appear at depends on what CT version you're using.

- What []CT[/i] tech levels actually mean in the context of the OTU has never really been cleared up. Given that the OTU presupposes free trade within the Imperium, the idea that a TL1 world exists next door to a TL15 world is just plain silly. Unless we're supposed to believe the Imperium is full of neo-luddites that is.

The 'Look Back' tech effect excuse is admitedly a tenuous one, but I haven't seen anything yet that can 'explain' LBB:2's TL9 jump6 ships.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Renard Ruche]

Sophonts:

I'm glad I waited until this morning to post.

I dragged out LBBS circa 1977, and darn if you ain't right, Sigg! There are more loopholes than I realized in that book (I tend to use The Traveller Book or a photocopy of the charts from LBB2-reprint).

Not mentioned, however; is the fact that the 'space' computer Jump program take up is different too: they are all '2'. In the later editions, Jump programs space = Max Jump. i.e. Jump 6 takes up 6 CPU spaces. In looking over the computers, you can do this at TLA (Generate - 1 space, Jump 6 - 6 spaces.). However, per the later rules, you can't Jump higher than 6 until you have a Model 6. Interesting. I assume this would be explained by 'processing power' of the computer (i.e. an earlier TL computer can hold the programs, just not run them - although I assume you could have a Model 4 with a J6 program and just use J4 as the max until you can upgrade the computer).

So, according to '77, you can build and operate at TL9 (which may have been the reference that I read....got to find that for RoS!). In later editions, it is pushed up to TL10. I must admit that when I first looked over the rules, I misread the computer chart and thought Model 4 wasn't available until TL12.

I personally like the size restrictions on the chart. My take (influenced a bit from the HH series limits on wormhole transits) is that there is a limit on the size of a vessel that can enter J-space based on the 'mathmatics' of the TL.

As for size/jump rating limits, one way to get around those pokey larger ships is to use more than one J drive along the lines of Ken Pick's article at Freelance Traveller:
http://www.freelancetraveller.com/features/shipyard/book2plus.html

 

[Renard Ruche]

Sophonts:

I'm glad I waited until this morning to post.

I dragged out LBBS circa 1977, and darn if you ain't right, Sigg! There are more loopholes than I realized in that book (I tend to use The Traveller Book or a photocopy of the charts from LBB2-reprint).

Not mentioned, however; is the fact that the 'space' computer Jump program take up is different too: they are all '2'. In the later editions, Jump programs space = Max Jump. i.e. Jump 6 takes up 6 CPU spaces. In looking over the computers, you can do this at TLA (Generate - 1 space, Jump 6 - 6 spaces.). However, per the later rules, you can't Jump higher than 6 until you have a Model 6. Interesting. I assume this would be explained by 'processing power' of the computer (i.e. an earlier TL computer can hold the programs, just not run them - although I assume you could have a Model 4 with a J6 program and just use J4 as the max until you can upgrade the computer).

So, according to '77, you can build and operate at TL9 (which may have been the reference that I read....got to find that for RoS!). In later editions, it is pushed up to TL10. I must admit that when I first looked over the rules, I misread the computer chart and thought Model 4 wasn't available until TL12.

I personally like the size restrictions on the chart. My take (influenced a bit from the HH series limits on wormhole transits) is that there is a limit on the size of a vessel that can enter J-space based on the 'mathmatics' of the TL.

As for size/jump rating limits, one way to get around those pokey larger ships is to use more than one J drive along the lines of Ken Pick's article at Freelance Traveller:
http://www.freelancetraveller.com/features/shipyard/book2plus.html

 

[Renard Ruche]

Opps, while in the shower, I realized I made the above post on a false assumption, that being that you have to run Generate and Jump at the same time. I just did a quick glance, and I believe I was in error. So, if you ignore the Model # = Jump #, but keep the later edition sizes of the programs (which is what I am leaning towards), you can make a Jump 6 at TL 9 with a 2bis (and that is IT...there is no CPU storage on the bis...you would have to have a J-tape to generate the plot, and you couldn't move, fire, etc....hmm....sounds familiar).


Of course, you don't even need Generate...just buy some of the 'jump tapes' at the starport....I wonder if they come in 8-track with Jefferson Airplane on the cover (sorry, flashback to my youth).

As an aside, MT doesn't require a seperate power plant for the jump drive...it's built into the drive:
MT Ref Man, Pg 58: 'Because a jump drive is also a power plant, it must be allocated fuel seperate and distinct.....'

Also, let me say that I now realize my error on J limits....it all depends on the edition you use.

 

[Renard Ruche]

Opps, while in the shower, I realized I made the above post on a false assumption, that being that you have to run Generate and Jump at the same time. I just did a quick glance, and I believe I was in error. So, if you ignore the Model # = Jump #, but keep the later edition sizes of the programs (which is what I am leaning towards), you can make a Jump 6 at TL 9 with a 2bis (and that is IT...there is no CPU storage on the bis...you would have to have a J-tape to generate the plot, and you couldn't move, fire, etc....hmm....sounds familiar).


Of course, you don't even need Generate...just buy some of the 'jump tapes' at the starport....I wonder if they come in 8-track with Jefferson Airplane on the cover (sorry, flashback to my youth).

As an aside, MT doesn't require a seperate power plant for the jump drive...it's built into the drive:
MT Ref Man, Pg 58: 'Because a jump drive is also a power plant, it must be allocated fuel seperate and distinct.....'

Also, let me say that I now realize my error on J limits....it all depends on the edition you use.

 

[boomslang]

So, if you ignore the Model # = Jump #, but keep the later edition sizes of the programs (which is what I am leaning towards), you can make a Jump 6 at TL 9 with a 2bis (and that is IT...there is no CPU storage on the bis...you would have to have a J-tape to generate the plot, and you couldn't move, fire, etc....hmm....sounds familiar).

Of course, you don't even need Generate...just buy some of the 'jump tapes' at the starport....I wonder if they come in 8-track with Jefferson Airplane on the cover (sorry, flashback to my youth).

But the problem here is that you've also forgotten that Navigate needs to run in CPU space concurrently with the Jump-n program. This, for example, is why the model/1 is hard-limited to Jump-1. The minimum computer to run Jump-6 and Navigate in CPU space simultaneously is the TL10 model/4 (again, ignoring the model = max jump restriction, which I never do).

 

[boomslang]

So, if you ignore the Model # = Jump #, but keep the later edition sizes of the programs (which is what I am leaning towards), you can make a Jump 6 at TL 9 with a 2bis (and that is IT...there is no CPU storage on the bis...you would have to have a J-tape to generate the plot, and you couldn't move, fire, etc....hmm....sounds familiar).

Of course, you don't even need Generate...just buy some of the 'jump tapes' at the starport....I wonder if they come in 8-track with Jefferson Airplane on the cover (sorry, flashback to my youth).

But the problem here is that you've also forgotten that Navigate needs to run in CPU space concurrently with the Jump-n program. This, for example, is why the model/1 is hard-limited to Jump-1. The minimum computer to run Jump-6 and Navigate in CPU space simultaneously is the TL10 model/4 (again, ignoring the model = max jump restriction, which I never do).

 

[boomslang]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
So Traders and Gunboats is non-canonical?

Supp 7 is canonical, of course; it is, however, well-established that at least four of the designs are "broken" with respect to the conventions established in the revised final editions of the rules (incl. 2nd. Ed. High Guard): the Type X (no required powerplant), the Type J (missing required fuel), the Type A2 (powerplant & powerplant fuel too small), and the Gazelle (drop tanks notwithstanding, too many hardpoints)...

 

[boomslang]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
So Traders and Gunboats is non-canonical?

Supp 7 is canonical, of course; it is, however, well-established that at least four of the designs are "broken" with respect to the conventions established in the revised final editions of the rules (incl. 2nd. Ed. High Guard): the Type X (no required powerplant), the Type J (missing required fuel), the Type A2 (powerplant & powerplant fuel too small), and the Gazelle (drop tanks notwithstanding, too many hardpoints)...

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by boomslang:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
So Traders and Gunboats is non-canonical?

Supp 7 is canonical, of course; it is, however, well-established that at least four of the designs are "broken" with respect to the conventions established in the revised final editions of the rules (incl. 2nd. Ed. High Guard): the Type X (no required powerplant), the Type J (missing required fuel), the Type A2 (powerplant & powerplant fuel too small), and the Gazelle (drop tanks notwithstanding, too many hardpoints)...

</font>[/QUOTE]I know, I was just pulling your leg

CT revised in all its iterations (LBB1-3, Deluxe, The Traveller Book, and Starter Traveller) does sort of over-write first edition.

Shame about such things as the x-boat being then broken, but it's nothing that can't be fixed using High Guard, although at a higher TL

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by boomslang:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
So Traders and Gunboats is non-canonical?

Supp 7 is canonical, of course; it is, however, well-established that at least four of the designs are "broken" with respect to the conventions established in the revised final editions of the rules (incl. 2nd. Ed. High Guard): the Type X (no required powerplant), the Type J (missing required fuel), the Type A2 (powerplant & powerplant fuel too small), and the Gazelle (drop tanks notwithstanding, too many hardpoints)...

</font>[/QUOTE]I know, I was just pulling your leg

CT revised in all its iterations (LBB1-3, Deluxe, The Traveller Book, and Starter Traveller) does sort of over-write first edition.

Shame about such things as the x-boat being then broken, but it's nothing that can't be fixed using High Guard, although at a higher TL

 

[mike wightman]

Could someone tell me where in CT it mentions computer programs on tapes?

I can find a reference to self erasing cassettes - but cassette describes the solid state storage device that gets plugged into my daughter's leap pad, or used to go in my Atari, not to mention a USB flash drive and the like

 

[mike wightman]

Could someone tell me where in CT it mentions computer programs on tapes?

I can find a reference to self erasing cassettes - but cassette describes the solid state storage device that gets plugged into my daughter's leap pad, or used to go in my Atari, not to mention a USB flash drive and the like

 

[boomslang]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:

CT revised in all its iterations (LBB1-3, Deluxe, The Traveller Book, and Starter Traveller) does sort of over-write first edition.

Shame about such things as the x-boat being then broken, but it's nothing that can't be fixed using High Guard, although at a higher TL

I beat on it with the Mighty Hammer of Uncompromising Naval Architecture (tm) and was able to devise a strictly Book 2 alternative that meets the minimum requirements to carry Mail at Jump-4 and at all of TL10 (due, again, to the need for a Model/4).

Use a 195-dton hull (so you don't need a Medic or Engineer @ 200 dtons), and j-drive-D (and powerplant-D); you'll end up with two crew (Pilot, Gunner) in single occupancy, 1 dton for fire control, 5 dtons for the Mail (forget the jibberish about "data banks": the bandwidth required to use radiated energy to transfer all that data from Xboat to tender and back "in a few minutes" would outshine a spinal mount particle gun; use the Netflix model of data transfer instead and just tote Flash ROMs from one hull to the other), and you'll still have room to slip in an m-drive-A so you can avoid the need to build tenders... it's a perfect fit...

 

[boomslang]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:

CT revised in all its iterations (LBB1-3, Deluxe, The Traveller Book, and Starter Traveller) does sort of over-write first edition.

Shame about such things as the x-boat being then broken, but it's nothing that can't be fixed using High Guard, although at a higher TL

I beat on it with the Mighty Hammer of Uncompromising Naval Architecture (tm) and was able to devise a strictly Book 2 alternative that meets the minimum requirements to carry Mail at Jump-4 and at all of TL10 (due, again, to the need for a Model/4).

Use a 195-dton hull (so you don't need a Medic or Engineer @ 200 dtons), and j-drive-D (and powerplant-D); you'll end up with two crew (Pilot, Gunner) in single occupancy, 1 dton for fire control, 5 dtons for the Mail (forget the jibberish about "data banks": the bandwidth required to use radiated energy to transfer all that data from Xboat to tender and back "in a few minutes" would outshine a spinal mount particle gun; use the Netflix model of data transfer instead and just tote Flash ROMs from one hull to the other), and you'll still have room to slip in an m-drive-A so you can avoid the need to build tenders... it's a perfect fit...

 

[mike wightman]

boomslang, I tip my hat to you sir

That is an inspired solution to the CT revised X-boat.

 

[mike wightman]

boomslang, I tip my hat to you sir

That is an inspired solution to the CT revised X-boat.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by boomslang:
I beat on it with the Mighty Hammer of Uncompromising Naval Architecture (tm)

I like, but I think you beat a little too hard or there's a couple typos in this...

Originally posted by boomslang:
Use a 195-dton hull (so you don't need a Medic or Engineer @ 200 dtons)

I think you mean to avoid the requirements for a Medic and Navigator (not Engineer) here as...

Originally posted by boomslang:
...j-drive-D (and powerplant-D)

...will require an Engineer (38tons of drives even without the maneuver option) for a minimum crew of two (Pilot and Engineer).

The hard mail idea is good, use it myself, but I still do the data bank tight-beam comm squirt too

And even with a maneuver drive I think there's still a need for tenders. The X-Boats are meant to jump fast and regularly. So you need to fuel them fast with the best purified fuel and swap out crews and sometimes do field maintenance beyond the basics just to make the thing go again. You don't want the X-Boat hanging around the starport waiting to fuel up or even worse skimming and the replacement crews will need somewhere to wait and the ones coming off ships somewhere to decompress for a bit till the next ride.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by boomslang:
I beat on it with the Mighty Hammer of Uncompromising Naval Architecture (tm)

I like, but I think you beat a little too hard or there's a couple typos in this...

Originally posted by boomslang:
Use a 195-dton hull (so you don't need a Medic or Engineer @ 200 dtons)

I think you mean to avoid the requirements for a Medic and Navigator (not Engineer) here as...

Originally posted by boomslang:
...j-drive-D (and powerplant-D)

...will require an Engineer (38tons of drives even without the maneuver option) for a minimum crew of two (Pilot and Engineer).

The hard mail idea is good, use it myself, but I still do the data bank tight-beam comm squirt too

And even with a maneuver drive I think there's still a need for tenders. The X-Boats are meant to jump fast and regularly. So you need to fuel them fast with the best purified fuel and swap out crews and sometimes do field maintenance beyond the basics just to make the thing go again. You don't want the X-Boat hanging around the starport waiting to fuel up or even worse skimming and the replacement crews will need somewhere to wait and the ones coming off ships somewhere to decompress for a bit till the next ride.