LBB2 M-Drives in LBB5: When does it help?

[kilemall]

Also not Book2 absolute acceleration isn't that big a factor in that it isn't used for anything other than movement.

While it’s true G-rating doesn’t translate into agility effects, it does have effects on ranges which do have weapon effects, the effective range of missiles, and sand.

There are actually three ranges in LBB2- close with no negative mods out to 250000 km, long from 250-500000 km at -2, and what I will term extreme range, 500000 km at -5. 900000 km could be termed break off range.

Note that at extreme range, lasers cannot hit without some advantage in either Predict or gunner skill. If the target is at extreme range and has invested in the premium Maneuver/Evade program with -5 DM and a computer to match, it’s virtually impossible.

Being able to get to desired range means g counts.

Re: missiles, a ship with a head start may outrun a chasing missile or at least its fuel supply. Under high vee crossing courses, a missile may not be able to intercept even with an optimized lead approach.

With the missile supplement, missiles hitting with closing courses may inflict quite a bit of extra damage.

Finally, a bit of subtlety with sand- in LBB2 at least, it seems to be deployed like ‘making smoke’ would in naval wargames.

If an enemy wishes to fire on a sand casting target, optimally it would accel to a LOS away from the cloud, possibly tangentially instead of pacing.

Two firing ships on either side of the sandcaster should free up one to make an unimpeded shot, or force the sandcaster to make more clouds.

Finally the sandcasting ship itself has to stay within the sand cloud shadow between it and the firing enemy. This constrains vee and heading changes by the sandcaster, or expend new sand to retain coverage after the new maneuvers.

So the effect is not instant agility but is considerable within the LBB2 framework.

 

[kilemall]

LBB2 - 77, 81, Starter
HG79, HG80
MT
TNE - FF&S, BL
T4 - Starships, T4QSDS, FF&S
T5
and then
GT Starships, Vehicles
GT:ISW
T20
HT
Ever notice how it all keeps coming back to LBB2 vs HG80? After forty plus years...
Back to the OP.
A HG80 jump drive is always smaller and cheaper, so you always go with a HG jump drive unless TL constrained.
For m-drive you always go for a LBB2 since they are also always smaller and usually cheaper (they sometimes cost a little more but you have to weigh up what you do with the reclaimed space since you can carry more cargo or passengers and thus more revenue).
Power plant is the interesting bit - you really need to consider pp+fuel as a unit and compare totals with regards to cost, tonnage and what you intend to do with the saved space.

And then there is the EP issue - how many EPs do you get from a letter drive since its number rating varies by hull size.

Take an X drive power plant

hull tonnage	800	1000	2000	3000	4000	5000
EP generated	48	60	60	60	40	50

If you want to go hardcore, perhaps one should strictly translate power plant by LBB5 tonnage and TL to generate the ‘correct’ EP.

So a TL15 A power plant produces more power then a TL10 one.

 

[Grav_Moped]

If you want to go hardcore, perhaps one should strictly translate power plant by LBB5 tonnage and TL to generate the ‘correct’ EP.

So a TL15 A power plant produces more power then a TL10 one.

T5 does that with TL Stage Effects (drives get cheaper as TL increases, too).

I'd consider tracking it from the other direction, so a Size A Drive is one that generates or uses 2 ratings points (EP, Gs, Jn) times 100Td (or to put it another way, generates or requires 200 "rating-tons" of effect). The size (and perhaps cost -- but perhaps not since what you're paying for is the effect, regardless of what hardware is needed to achieve it) would then vary by TL.

The main reason to track in terms of "drive letter size" instead of ratings points would be for LBB2 combat damage results, though. I think MgT does it that way (ratings points), more or less.

 

[Grav_Moped]

So the effect is not instant agility but is considerable within the LBB2 framework.

Agreed. It's not nearly the decisive factor that Agility is in LBB5'81, where agility is a universal -DM to be hit, and heavily influences range determination and ability to break off (or force continuation of) battle. Still, Gs (not agility) do have notable effects in LBB2.

 

[mike wightman]

There is a rule in Mayday that really should be in LBB2 - the evade program DM costs you maneuver g rating on a one for one basis.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

So, LBB2 had no actual naval ships. That's possible. Seems a little unlikely.

Why would there be? LBB1-3 is generally a game of a small band of civilian adventurers without much in the way of military or naval equipment, that came later in LBB4-5.

Also note the first military ship in an official Adventure, the Kinunir, only had 4G acceleration (and as built under the '77 rules, had Pn=Gs).

With particle accelerators, a /fib computer, and black globes, it's presumably a LBB5'79 ship?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Also not Book2 absolute acceleration isn't that big a factor in that it isn't used for anything other than movement.

Agreed. It's not nearly the decisive factor that Agility is in LBB5'81, where agility is a universal -DM to be hit, and heavily influences range determination and ability to break off (or force continuation of) battle. Still, Gs (not agility) do have notable effects in LBB2.

Movement is vital for a warship; the ship (or fleet) with the higher acceleration generally has the choice to engage or disengage even before the battle.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

There is a rule in Mayday that really should be in LBB2 - the evade program DM costs you maneuver g rating on a one for one basis.

Interesting, I agree that it makes sense. TNE seems to agree too.

I see Mayday explains some software better, e.g. Auto/Evade precludes manoeuvre completely.

But Maneuver/Evade seems to take 1G only, regardless of defensive DM.

Mayday, p5:
_ _ Maneuver/Evade Programs: Certain computer programs are available for use by players to enhance the defensive posture of a ship (the effect is represented by a beneficial die roll modification in combat). Maneuver/Evade programs postulate automated control of the ship's maneuver ability, making enemy course prediction more difficult. Use of such programs, however, restricts voluntary maneuverability.
_ _ If a Maneuver/Evade program is functioning in the ship-board computer, the G-factor for the ship is reduced by 1. In the case of a 1G ship, this indicates that the chip may not maneuver. In the case of a 2G ship, this indicates that the ship may only maneuver at 1G.

 

[aramis]

So, LBB2 had no actual naval ships. That's possible. Seems a little unlikely. Also note the first military ship in an official Adventure, the Kinunir, only had 4G acceleration (and as built under the '77 rules, had Pn=Gs).

No, it's not. At least, not entirely. Heck, only the drives, staterooms, fuel, and bridge are Bk2 systems
Bk2 has only 4 weapon systems: 3 round manual reload missile racks, 3 round manual reload sandcaster racks, beam lasers, and pulse lasers.
The weapons and quasi-weapons on board:

• self-reloading missile turrets (presumably triple)
• Missile Magazines
• Particle Accelerator Turrets
• Jump Capsule Launcher.

Further, it has a 7fib, not a stock 7, which means the computer isn't a Bk2 computer, either - fib only matters once you get either Bk5 or SS3, both of which post-date Kinunir.

Moreover, the drives do not all have clear letters, and thus Bk2 damage does not work. So what combat rules is it designed for?

Given its timing, and the various other products from GW in that time frame, I strongly suspect the Kinunir is a draft Bk5 design.
Design rules for the drop capsule launcher are in Striker, not Bk 5... much later... but the concept was present in Bk 4... which is really close time-wise to Kinunir, but I don't know the publication sequence. It also has the PA systems and larger missile systems; the tonnage implies missile barbettes...

It appears to be 2× K PP, which would be capable, jointly of probably P3, not the needed P4, based upon the maximum of drive × Book 2 line/HullTonnage. It's only got 4000 rating, over 1200... for a 3.3 rating.

It also notes the PP driving the JD, which isn't Bk2-77...
The "R3-55" jump drive isn't a type R, as a type R is only 3200 max (rating×tonnage); which is 400 short of J4 by (r×t); by actual book 2, a type R would be J1 for a 1001-2000 Td hull.
the MD likewise doesn't give us a rating...

Even using drive Y gives us 235 tons of drives - only need 7 engineers.
Need 6 gunners - 1 per missile bay, 1 per PA bay, 1 per drop capsule launcher.
Need pilot, navigator, and medic, too, as well as command crew (CO, XO, 3×Admin ratings), and minimum crew of 10 per 1000 Td, so the 21 crew required by rating exceed the minimum.

Instead using Bk5-79 crewing and drives, 21*12=240+12=256 Td drives...
Command: 9... CO, XO, 2×clerk, 2×Nav, Medical Officer, Nurse, Comms.
Engineering: 6 ... 2 base plus 4 for drives, so 1 officer, 1 PO, and the rest ratings
Medical: No additional needed
GUnnery: 10... assuming 4×10Td bays that's 8; the Drop Capsule Launchers probably should count two turrets
Flight: 9 ... FCO, 4 pilots, four techs
Marine det: 24... 2 per 100 Td...

34 ship crew, 24 marines....

Looks awfully close to Bk5-79....

 

[aramis]

Why would there be? LBB1-3 is generally a game of a small band of civilian adventurers without much in the way of military or naval equipment, that came later in LBB4-5.

In part, because the inspiration was age of sail... and in the height of the age of sail, all 400+ years thereof, the difference between military and civilian was purely the armament carried, and it was also pretty close parity betwixt them.

In part, because LBB4-5 are released 2 years later than CT was initially designed, and the initial plan hadn't gotten that far when Bk2 was written - the Cruiser and Patrol were genuinely the military ships.

Mayday lists the following:

Scout, 100 ton starship. 2G. Modelll bis, 1 laser, 1 missile launcher, one lifeboat. Programs: L,T P2 MI, M, RF,AM M, J1, J2, N.
Courier, 100 ton starship, 2G. Modelll bis, 1 laser, 1 sandcaster, 1 lifeboat. Programs: C, T P3 M2, AM J2, N.
Escort,. 100 ton starship, 2G. Modeltf bis, 2 lasers. Programs: T, PI, P2 AE. RF M,Jl,N.
Free Trader, 200 ton starship. 1G. Model/l, 1 laser, 1 missfle launcher, 1 ship's boat. Programs: T, L, G AE, RF, AM M, J1, N.
Yacht, 200 ton starship, IG, ModelJ1 bis, 1 laser, 1 sandcaster. 1 shipas boat. Programs: T, L AE, AM M, J1, N.
Transport, 400 ton starship, T G, Modelll , 1 lifeboat. Programs: AE M, J1, N.
Armed Merchant, 400 ton starship, 1 G, Model12, 1 laser, 1 sandcaster, 1 lifeboat. Programs: T, L, P3,G MI, AE, RF,AM M, J1, N.
Destroyer, 400 ton starship, 2G, Model/2 bis, 2 lasers, 1 missile launcher, 1 sand caster, t ship's boat. Programs: T, C, G, PI, P3, P4, S1 MT, AE, RF M, J1, J2, M.
Colonial Cruiser, 800 ton starship, 2G, Model/3, 4 lasers, 1 missite launcher, 2 fighters, 1 lifeboat. Programs: C, T, G, PI, P2 MI, AE, RF, AM M, J1, J2, N.
Corsair, 400 ton starship, 2G, ModelJ2, 2 lasers, 1 missile launcher, 1 pinnace. Programs: alI.

Mayday is 1978... and using the Small Ship Universe paradigm.

 

[Spinward Flow]

The way I prefer to think about LBB2 drives is that they're "standard rating-1 drives" for specific hull sizes, but which offer higher ratings in smaller hulls.

LINK

The classic example of this is that of the A-Drive being rating 1 in a 200 ton form factor, but it's rating 2 in a 100 ton form factor.
Same deal with B-Drives (rating-1 @ 400 tons, rating-2 @ 200 tons, rating-3 @ 133 tons, rating-4 @ 100 tons).
Just keep iterating as the drive letters go up.

And as per LBB3.81 ... minimum tech levels for drives works out like so ...
A-D (4) = TL=9
E-H (4) = TL=10
J-K (2) = TL=11
L-N (3) = TL=12
P-Q (2) = TL=13
R-U (4) = TL=14
V-Z (5) = TL=15
... with higher tech levels being able to manufacture drives of "lower" tech levels (of course).

Any "wonky-ness" with the LBB2 drive letter/number table is simply a byproduct of using a table to present the information (introducing all kinds of granularity and rounding error issues) rather than a straight up formula like LBB5 (wisely) moved towards.

 

[Grav_Moped]

The way I prefer to think about LBB2 drives is that they're "standard rating-1 drives" for specific hull sizes, but which offer higher ratings in smaller hulls.

Not a bad approach.

Any "wonky-ness" with the LBB2 drive letter/number table is simply a byproduct of using a table to present the information (introducing all kinds of granularity and rounding error issues) rather than a straight up formula like LBB5 (wisely) moved towards.

Not quite, but pretty close.

I've gone at this before, but the only point (for the non-TL-15 drives) where the drive rating is not proportional to the (ordinal value of the) drive size and hull tonnage, rounded down, is Size J in 1000Td where a value of 0.9 is rounded up to 1. The TL-15 (W-Z) drives have performance bumps -- in some cases, significant ones, not just rounding up instead of down -- that seem to be in part because they ran out of room on the page (and/or ran out of letters) before they hit their desired performance levels in the 5000Td maximum hull size, and shoved what would have been the far right edge of the table into the 4 largest drive sizes and credited it to TL-15 specialness without mentioning they'd done so.

Using a table rather than a formula is a good solution to save your intended audience from needing to learn complicated math when you're actually underpinning the system with complicated math for game-shaping purposes. It's less necessary these days because calculators and spreadsheet programs are common (they weren't, back in the late '70s and early '80s).

 

[Grav_Moped]

With particle accelerators, a /fib computer, and black globes, it's presumably a LBB5'79 ship?

Looks awfully close to Bk5-79....

Typo, thanks. Meant '79 as opposed to '80. Apologies for the confusion -- especially to @aramis for causing you to go that far into it unnecessarily!

 

[AnotherDilbert]

In part, because the inspiration was age of sail... and in the height of the age of sail, all 400+ years thereof, the difference between military and civilian was purely the armament carried, and it was also pretty close parity betwixt them.

I'm no expert on sailing warships, but I was under the impression that warship hulls was much thicker than merchantmen hulls. In effect, warships were more heavily armoured (with wood) and used heavier guns to punch through the thick wooden hulls of enemy warships. Even in the early 17th century warship hulls could be 0.5-1 m thick in the waterline.

Something like this:
https://forum.game-labs.net/topic/2368-how-were-warships-hulls-made-thicker-to-take-more-punishment/


At the Battle of Pulo Aura (1804) it was considered noteworthy that ~15-20 East Indiamen drove off three warships (1 SOL and two (light?) frigates). The french frigates were slightly smaller than an East Indiaman, narrower, yet carried much heavier armament and more than twice the crew. Both carried a main battery of 18 pounders, whereas the much heavier SOL carried 36 pounders.

Doesn't sound like even a heavy armed merchantman was the equal of a light frigate...

Mayday lists the following:

Mayday has no Double Fire or computers larger than m/3, so the "Colonial Cruiser" is kind of maxed out. As four hits destroys a ship outright, I doubt you want much larger ships?

 

[Grav_Moped]

Mayday has no Double Fire or computers larger than m/3, so the "Colonial Cruiser" is kind of maxed out. As four hits destroys a ship outright, I doubt you want much larger ships?

In fairness, a Mod/3 will support a full suite of combat programs, so under LBB2 there's not much need for more (except in '81 where Mod/n >= Jn).

 

[Grav_Moped]

Also, on a completely unrelated tangent, the spaceship on the cover of Mayday appears to be a General Dynamics F-111 Aardvark with the wings removed.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

In fairness, a Mod/3 will support a full suite of combat programs, so under LBB2 there's not much need for more (except in '81 where Mod/n >= Jn).

In LBB2 a warship software loadout would be something like:

Space  Program
1      Target
1      Gunner Interact
2      Predict
1      Select
2      Multi-target
4      Double Fire
1      Launch
3      Maneuver/Evade
1      Return Fire
2      Anti-Missile
3      ECM

For a total of 21 in storage, and ~11 used in the same phase, so requiring a m/5 (12/25) as base-line.
A m/4 (8/15) would have to omit software like Double Fire and ECM.
A m/3 (5/9) would be highly constrained, especially in the Laser Fire Phase and Laser Return Fire Phase?

 

[Grav_Moped]

For a total of 21 in storage, and ~11 used in the same phase, so requiring a m/5 as base-line.
A m/4 would have to omit software like Double Fire and ECM.
A m/3 would be highly constrained, especially in the Laser Fire Phase?

Yeah. I'm not seeing it as quite that bad (I think programs are either in the CPU or they're in storage, so don't need to have storage space reserved when in CPU), but it's a fair point.

 

[Condottiere]

One primary difference between military, militarized, and civilian ships would be construction standards, since if you assume that the intention is to go into harm's way, you'd want the hull to withstand considerably more damage.

It's also a reason that some navies will loosen their requirements to buy an auxiliary ship built to civilian standards, due to the cheaper construction costs.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Yeah. I'm not seeing it as quite that bad (I think programs are either in the CPU or they're in storage, so don't need to have storage space reserved when in CPU), but it's a fair point.

Agreed, Storage isn't much of a problem, but CPU capacity is...

Ideally, you'd want to run this during the Laser Return Fire

Space  Program
1      Target
1      Gunner Interact
2      Predict
1      Select
2      Multi-target
4      Double Fire
1      Return Fire
2      Anti-Missile
3      ECM

for a total of 17 CPU required, so needing a maximum m/7 (20/50) computer, by pure coincidence I'm sure.