LBB2 trading Tech modifiers
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far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Yes. Wait, I mean No. I think. No, not No, or Yes. I don't know. What was the question...
This bit continues to screw me up. I've always thought it was simple...
"add (or subtract) difference between origin and destination"
...sounds like a simple math puzzle:
"Origin TL +/- (DM) = Destination TL"
So Origin TL 10 and Destination TL 5 solves as DM= -5 since:
10 - 5 = 5 is true.
But I've seen it solved the other way around as often so I've never been sure I've got it right. It's the way I do it though.
So my answer(1) would be there are fewer people and less freight going to high TL worlds. Personally I seen no real reason for a TL DM. It seems to me you'd have different types of people and freight going one way than the other but I'm not sure the numbers would be significantly different on the scale we're talking about for Free-Traders
(1) but don't take that as being at all correct
This bit continues to screw me up. I've always thought it was simple...
"add (or subtract) difference between origin and destination"
...sounds like a simple math puzzle:
"Origin TL +/- (DM) = Destination TL"
So Origin TL 10 and Destination TL 5 solves as DM= -5 since:
10 - 5 = 5 is true.
But I've seen it solved the other way around as often so I've never been sure I've got it right. It's the way I do it though.
So my answer(1) would be there are fewer people and less freight going to high TL worlds. Personally I seen no real reason for a TL DM. It seems to me you'd have different types of people and freight going one way than the other but I'm not sure the numbers would be significantly different on the scale we're talking about for Free-Traders
(1) but don't take that as being at all correct
Mind you, I'm just doing this in a show all work fashion so that people can either agree with me or disagree with me, and then show me WHY they disagree with me - it isn't to say "Silly people, I'm right, so you must be wrong!"
So bear with me as I show all work.
Situation:
Ship is at a TL 10 world Pop 6 world, with a single jump destination planned to a TL 15 Pop 7 world.
Pop 6 origin means that you look at the High Passenger list for the Pop 6 world, which states 3D-2D.
DMS for Destination world, translates this into:
3d-2d+ Pop modifier +Zone Modifier + Tech Modifier
The pop modifier is zero because the pop of the origin world is not 4 or less, nor is it 8+.
The Zone modifier is zero because the destination is neither amber nor red
The Tech Modifier is listed as being equal to the Difference (subtraction) between Origin and Destination TL values. Since Origin is listed first and Destination is listed last, order of operations would be to subtract the second listed item from the first listed item in order to get the difference between the two.
TL 10 minus TL 15 = -5
3d-2d+0 (pop modifier) + 0 (Zone modifier) + -5 TL modifier =
(assuming a roll of 10 for the 3d6 roll and a roll of a 7 for the 2d6 roll)
10-7+0+-5 or 10-12 or -2
Now, had it been a TL 10 world and a TL 5 destination world, we'd see it work like this:
3d-2d+0+0+(10-5) or 3d-2d+0+0+5
That however, is just from the days of translating word problems into math from when I had to do math tests in grade school.
So bear with me as I show all work.
Situation:
Ship is at a TL 10 world Pop 6 world, with a single jump destination planned to a TL 15 Pop 7 world.
Pop 6 origin means that you look at the High Passenger list for the Pop 6 world, which states 3D-2D.
DMS for Destination world, translates this into:
3d-2d+ Pop modifier +Zone Modifier + Tech Modifier
The pop modifier is zero because the pop of the origin world is not 4 or less, nor is it 8+.
The Zone modifier is zero because the destination is neither amber nor red
The Tech Modifier is listed as being equal to the Difference (subtraction) between Origin and Destination TL values. Since Origin is listed first and Destination is listed last, order of operations would be to subtract the second listed item from the first listed item in order to get the difference between the two.
TL 10 minus TL 15 = -5
3d-2d+0 (pop modifier) + 0 (Zone modifier) + -5 TL modifier =
(assuming a roll of 10 for the 3d6 roll and a roll of a 7 for the 2d6 roll)
10-7+0+-5 or 10-12 or -2
Now, had it been a TL 10 world and a TL 5 destination world, we'd see it work like this:
3d-2d+0+0+(10-5) or 3d-2d+0+0+5
That however, is just from the days of translating word problems into math from when I had to do math tests in grade school.
I would look at it slightly differently and say:
People go to where they have reason to go, and return back to home unless where they are going will be their new home.
If you're at any given world, and you have to take a voyage, what will be your reasons to take the voyage?
A) One way trip away from current world. Passenger needs to avoid the law, or perhaps make a new start on a different world (emmigration comes to mind).
B) Passenger needs to arrive at new world to take possession of a non-movable good, such as land inherited from a dead rich uncle.
C) Passenger is a travelling salesman who needs to go to target world, but return someday.
D) Passenger is a tourist, who wants to visit a world, but needs to return someday.
Now, a while back, I mentioned (Maybe at the TML, or perhaps GURPS TRAVELLER at the JTAS online, or perhaps even here) that it makes more sense financially speaking, to spend your terms in the Imperial military, and then find a lower tech world to settle down on where your retirement funds will last longer. Why? Because if the cost of the meal is the same relative to the TL - ie, a meal costs 2 credits whether on a TL 9 world using TL 9 currency, or on a TL 12 world using TL 12 currency, then using TL 12 currency to purchase a single 2 credit meal means that the real value of that meal is cheaper because TL 12 currency is worth more than TL 9 currency. If all "retirement" funds are disbursed at the highest TL currency value, then it is worth more at the lower tech worlds.
In any event, CT does not go into details such as immigration laws, etc - which is a detail that the GM's must provide. One thing is for sure. In American History, captains who were taking on passengers from Europe and other various places, were required to vet their passengers qualifications to see if they would or could qualify for immigration into the United States. At Ellis Island (and other entry points later on), immigrants were required to pass a physical or be turned away, at the ship captain's expense of returning them to their port of origin. Imagine if you will, being a ship's captain in a Traveller Universe, where a paying passenger wishes to leave the ship and exit beyond the territoriality line only to discover that they can't.
What are the laws involved there? Does the person have to reside within Star Town until such a time as they can be deported back to their home world? Who pays for the deportation? When a passenger runs out of funds at a star town, how do they get food and shelter? These are details that are not in the Traveller books, and require the GM to determine for their own game worlds (if they even bother with such circumstances).
Well, enough on that. Me? I think the TL modifiers for passengers should either be muted (made to have a lesser impact) or they should be done away with entirely. That's just an opinion however...
DM = Source TL - Destination TL.
TL 10 source, TL 4 Destination: 10-4= (+6)
TL 4 source, TL 10 Destination: 4-10= (-6)
For some strange reason, the primative culture wants to buy the 'cure for cancer' drugs more than the advanced culture wants to buy pewter forks.
For some strange reason, the primative culture has more openings for engineers from the advanced culture, than the advanced culture has openings for skilled herdsmen from the primitive world.
TL 10 source, TL 4 Destination: 10-4= (+6)
TL 4 source, TL 10 Destination: 4-10= (-6)
For some strange reason, the primative culture wants to buy the 'cure for cancer' drugs more than the advanced culture wants to buy pewter forks.
For some strange reason, the primative culture has more openings for engineers from the advanced culture, than the advanced culture has openings for skilled herdsmen from the primitive world.
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far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Or...
For some strange reason the advanced culture doesn't want the cheap labour produced items and raw materials of the primitive culture.
For some strange reason the advanced culture isn't a magnet for immigration from the primitive culture looking to improve their lot in life.
You know, like the real world
Again though, I think it goes both ways about equally, just with different reasons. A TL DM simply seems wrong.
Though I would argue that a primitive society isn't going to be able to use and maintain advanced society wonders, unless they are attracting a lot of those engineers and the infrastructure and then their TL changes
But an advanced society can certainly gain by using it's purchasing power to good advantage over the primitive society without affecting either TL significantly or requiring people to move, though the contact is going to make going to the advanced society a huge temptation to the primitives.
Gents,
The TL DM regarding immigration is plausible. Remember, the US is the exception, not the rule, in this regard. I'll point you to "illegal migrant" camps ranging from the French side of the Chunnel, to Spain's slices of land in Morroco, to islands off Australia's sunny shores.
While anyone with the money can travel between starports, getting across the extrality line may be something else entirely.
I can easily see a TL15 world strongly discouraging TL5 or lower migrants. Such people won't have the skills or even the skills to learn the skills a TL15 economy would require. All they and their children will do is create a permanent underclass living perpetually on the dole.
Of course, there will be exceptions.
Regards,
Bill
The TL DM regarding immigration is plausible. Remember, the US is the exception, not the rule, in this regard. I'll point you to "illegal migrant" camps ranging from the French side of the Chunnel, to Spain's slices of land in Morroco, to islands off Australia's sunny shores.
While anyone with the money can travel between starports, getting across the extrality line may be something else entirely.
I can easily see a TL15 world strongly discouraging TL5 or lower migrants. Such people won't have the skills or even the skills to learn the skills a TL15 economy would require. All they and their children will do is create a permanent underclass living perpetually on the dole.
Of course, there will be exceptions.
Regards,
Bill
No argument from me about TL mods being odd, but HAL hit the nail on the head ... "difference between origin and destination" does mean "Origin TL minus Destination TL" in math parlance.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Pardon?
Are you saying DMs are to apply to each die rolled? So a 2D6 roll with a DM+1 is not "D6+D6+1" but "(D6+1)+(D6+1)"?
I don't think so. Any DM is applied once to the roll no matter how many dice are involved. At least that's the way I'd always understood it.
LBB1, pg7:
Die Modifier (abbreviated DM): A number to be applied to a die roll before it is
used. Die modifiers are preceded by a sign which indicates whether the number is to be added to or subtracted from the die roll. Thus +4 would be added to the die roll while -2 would be subtracted.
Die singular, dice plural yep it's for each (D+/-DM, D+/-DM) not (2D+DM) !!!
Die Modifier (abbreviated DM): A number to be applied to a die roll before it is
used. Die modifiers are preceded by a sign which indicates whether the number is to be added to or subtracted from the die roll. Thus +4 would be added to the die roll while -2 would be subtracted.
Die singular, dice plural yep it's for each (D+/-DM, D+/-DM) not (2D+DM) !!!
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
But your interpretation is contradicted by every (iirc) example of DM use in the books.
LBB1 pg 9 Enlistment roll example, a single DM applied to a 2D6 roll.
LBB1 pg 26-7 Char gen example, the whole workup shows single DM applied to 2D6 rolls throughout.
I'm sure there's more. I've not heard anyone else apply it to each die*. Granted it reads that way but the examples make it clear the language of the rule is poorly stated.
* not clearly stated anyway, though it could explain several "issues" some have mentioned at times
LBB1 pg 9 Enlistment roll example, a single DM applied to a 2D6 roll.
LBB1 pg 26-7 Char gen example, the whole workup shows single DM applied to 2D6 rolls throughout.
I'm sure there's more. I've not heard anyone else apply it to each die*. Granted it reads that way but the examples make it clear the language of the rule is poorly stated.
* not clearly stated anyway, though it could explain several "issues" some have mentioned at times
Um, I think you misunderstood. It's for the die roll. For example, a DM for the to-hit roll in combat is applied to the DIE ROLL not to each die of the two dice roll for 8+. Otherwise the DM would effectively be doubled.
Another example, on the Passenger table in Book 2 a positive DM would be both good and bad: 2D-1D to you would mean the your liason/admin skill would penalize you by adding to the subtracting die.
I love it! Beautiful logic.
You do realize that grammatically 'Die' is singular because it is modifying the singular object 'roll' or 'modifier'.
One might say "Roll the Die" (meaning one) or "Roll the Dice" (meaning more than one), but "the die roll" means ONE roll of one or more die/dice.
"The dice roll" would be gramaticly incorrect as the object in a sentence.
Look at the examples where the roll and modifiers are used to confirm the author's intent.
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Character Generation Example, Book 1, pg.26. Clearly shows the use of DMs.
Maccat, I think you might need a re-do with any adventures you have ran...
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
...but don't sweat it. There's more than a few examples of other rule interpretations going wrong, I've done it myself. Just consider your past exploits heroic
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Nope, at least I don't think there are any DMs to the lot size rolls
Do note though (some seem to miss) that the number of lots you roll is that, the number of lots. And each of those lots is then diced for lot size and that is multiplied by the number of tons depending on the type of freight. So rolling (with DM) 5 major, 3 minor, and 1 incidental cargo lots means:
5 lots of 1D6 each x10 tons (up to 300tons)
3 lots of 1D6 each x5 tons (up to 150tons)
1 lot of 1D6 x1 ton (up to 6tons)
Do note though (some seem to miss) that the number of lots you roll is that, the number of lots. And each of those lots is then diced for lot size and that is multiplied by the number of tons depending on the type of freight. So rolling (with DM) 5 major, 3 minor, and 1 incidental cargo lots means:
5 lots of 1D6 each x10 tons (up to 300tons)
3 lots of 1D6 each x5 tons (up to 150tons)
1 lot of 1D6 x1 ton (up to 6tons)
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