Well I think Friehaven is partly non-ethnically German. Have a look at Randy's article about it at the Tirane Sourcebook...
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~dheb/Tirane/Frei/FreiDemographics.htm
I'm glad you like it.
That's true, but the whole Bavarian colonial project really hit hard times when Bavaria was absorbed into Germany. I think that the Germans were lucky that Neubayern, unlike Garten, didn't have an active nationalism of its own.
One thing that I plan on including in the expansion/review of Freihafen is a description of how Freihafen's independence got recognized. For the Third Battle of Alpha Centauri, I'm relying heavily on the Ten Day War, Slovenia's war of independence, where nimble and media-savvy separatists staged unexpected assaults on incoming federal troops and were able to secure international mediation that let ultimately to Slovenia's independence.
Manchuria, hegemon of the Chinese Arm
- Thread starter rfmcdpei
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ryanrulz37
SOC-7
I'm glad you like it.
I did Randy, you've been a bit quite of late. Top of the morning to you. S.
One thing that I plan on including in the expansion/review of Freihafen is a description of how Freihafen's independence got recognized. For the Third Battle of Alpha Centauri, I'm relying heavily on the Ten Day War, Slovenia's war of independence, where nimble and media-savvy separatists staged unexpected assaults on incoming federal troops and were able to secure international mediation that let ultimately to Slovenia's independence.
Look forward to it. Was never than comfortable with the Austroslovenia.
epicenter00
SOC-13
TBH, I've never liked how Germany's colonies all splinter off in 2320. It was probably one of the points of 2320 I most sharply differed with Colin's vision on. It, again, felt too much like history playing itself out again. Britain and France hold onto their colonies reasonably well. German colonialism? Hey, guess what? It fails again, just like in the early 20th century. Too predictable for my tastes.
ryanrulz37 - I'm sort of curious, why don't you like Austroslovenia?
ryanrulz37 - I'm sort of curious, why don't you like Austroslovenia?
ryanrulz37
SOC-7
Well its sort of the fusion of a Germanic and Slavic culture and the whole Yugoslav thing that bugs me a bit. Croatia and Serbia become independent after Yugoslavia breaks up post 2TK but then Slovenia joins with Austria. I suppose the Austrians wanted access to the sea which they haven't had since 1918 and Slovenia is one of the Western Slavic nations, but for me it sort of goes gainst the usual splinter of modern country theme in 2300AD. Baluchistan, Kurdistan, Flanders, Catalonia, the China, India and USSR splinter, Texas leaving America, Tasmania and Northern Queensland leaving Australia etc. But then you have the opposite with Indochina, Indonesia, UAR, Scandinavian Union, Mexico, Inca Republic, Azania etc.
Some work but others don't when you look at it with a bit of realism. Just find Austroslovenia a weird one in a European context.
general_tiu
SOC-8
Hmm. Austro-Slovenia is kind of like of a republican version of Austria-Hungary in the old days.
I don't think the Austrians and Slovenes mix that much despite having some common history.
I don't think the Austrians and Slovenes mix that much despite having some common history.
Maybe GDW considered the long standing contacts between Austria and Slovenia, that are present even today in the Austrian state of Carinthia?
I don't know if GDW did. At least it gives some context to Austrovenia. Austrovenia ranks with the many nations briefly discussed in sourcebook. We know they are the place of origin of a weapon manufacturer in the setting (Stracher) but not much more. Has anyone used Austrovenia in their games?
I created a thread on Austrovenia for those who want to discuss it with me. Seems confusing to do it in a thread about Manchuria, doesn't it?
So too would Germany going all militaristic. I didn't actually consider the past-future thing at all. I looked at the present colonies, and tried to figure out the trends associated with them. Germany has already shown itself to be weak in regards to Dunkelheim, and then later Hochbaden. Freihafen was bound to go it's own way, given it's size and wealth, and similarly so for Nibelungen. Nibelungen is practically a Core world. With those four out of the way, Germany really has very little left. Heidelsheimat is ethnically Bavarian, and would see the German governmetns weakness as an ideal time to go it's own way. The loss of Hochbaden was a devastating blow to German pride and prestige. Rather than pour more energy into the colonies, the need was there to consolidate at home.
I was referring to the Slovenian War of Independence in 1991, our history. My mistake.
Peter Schutze
SOC-12
>German colonialism? Hey, guess what? It fails again, just like in the early 20th century. Too predictable for my tastes.
I thought the reason 20th C colonialism failed for germany was because the british and french took them all off germany ? Oh and helped japan conquer and expropriate the german colony in china
Im not aware of colonialism itself being a failure .... in fact namibians still had a nostalgic fondness for Germany when my sister was there in the late 90s
Personally I dont see a big issue with mature german colonies becoming independent from germany's or the colony's PoV although I would normally expect them to stay fairly closely tied to the fatherland bavaria vs germany issues aside
I thought the reason 20th C colonialism failed for germany was because the british and french took them all off germany ? Oh and helped japan conquer and expropriate the german colony in china
Im not aware of colonialism itself being a failure .... in fact namibians still had a nostalgic fondness for Germany when my sister was there in the late 90s
Personally I dont see a big issue with mature german colonies becoming independent from germany's or the colony's PoV although I would normally expect them to stay fairly closely tied to the fatherland bavaria vs germany issues aside
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Germany colonialism failed due to a number of factors. The German failure to crack down on Dunkelheim, the loss of Hochbaden, the independence of Friehafen, the expense of the Kafer War, political turmoil at home in the wake of the war of German Reunification. Al the signs were there in 2300, perhaps due to the inbuilt historical parallels.
I tried to make the point in reference to Manchuria that the only reason they were not ranked as a Tier 1 nation was political maneuvering by France. Manchuria's navy is smaller, the army is bigger, and they have more colonies, but lower income per colony. Technology level is slightly lower in Manchuria, and commonly available technology is likewise lower. The colonies also tend to have quite low levels of technology, which is the rationale used to rank Manchuria at Tier 2. Objectively, Manchuria should be Tier 1, and France Tier 2. The current host of nations at tier 2 should be Tier 3, and so on down the list, changing the number of tiers from 4 to 5.
IIRC, historically German colonies were relatively well governed, albeit with a smaller immigrant base than the British or French colonies. Granted they had less time to grow as colonies before being taken by the British/French/Japanese. A look at the German Southern African Colonies are a case in point for well governed, well planned, but poorly staffed colonies.
Peter Schutze
SOC-12
Ok this has me confused.
>German colonialism? Hey, guess what? It fails again, just like in the early 20th century
maybe its a misunderstanding of the term failure ?
I would regard the **eager** support of the locals to stop the entente powers of WW1 taking tsing tao, german east africa or namibia as highlighting the **success** of german colonialism .... other colonies like rabaul made an administrative decision not to strenuously resist conquest but even then the occupations usually did not go smoothly
>Al the signs were there in 2300, perhaps due to the inbuilt historical parallels
how could there be inbuilt parallels ?
nothing happens to the 2320 german colonies matches anything in the pre-WW1 german colonies. there was no opportunity for the real world german colonies to reach the stage they do in 2320
If they had the time to grow, they would probably have been given dominion status like Britain was doing for her bigger colonies or statehood like 2320 USA does with Ellis
none of the real world german colonies were blasted to oblivion like hochbaden. several 2320 colonies passively decide to be independent ..... unlike every historical german colony which was physically conquered and then expropriated by foreign powers to add to their own collection of colonies. None were willingly surrendered or traded away etc by Germany and none of them had ever asked for independence
I personally believe that the british commonwealth / dominion system should have been the 2320 outcome for both the german and british colonies ....
becoming basically independent but still very respectful towards the mother country perhaps with friehafen and crater being the disrespectful children (to parallel south africa or zimbabwe in the 1960s and 70s) .... its not as if colonial maturity = more self government is a new trend for 2320
>German colonialism? Hey, guess what? It fails again, just like in the early 20th century
maybe its a misunderstanding of the term failure ?
I would regard the **eager** support of the locals to stop the entente powers of WW1 taking tsing tao, german east africa or namibia as highlighting the **success** of german colonialism .... other colonies like rabaul made an administrative decision not to strenuously resist conquest but even then the occupations usually did not go smoothly
>Al the signs were there in 2300, perhaps due to the inbuilt historical parallels
how could there be inbuilt parallels ?
nothing happens to the 2320 german colonies matches anything in the pre-WW1 german colonies. there was no opportunity for the real world german colonies to reach the stage they do in 2320
If they had the time to grow, they would probably have been given dominion status like Britain was doing for her bigger colonies or statehood like 2320 USA does with Ellis
none of the real world german colonies were blasted to oblivion like hochbaden. several 2320 colonies passively decide to be independent ..... unlike every historical german colony which was physically conquered and then expropriated by foreign powers to add to their own collection of colonies. None were willingly surrendered or traded away etc by Germany and none of them had ever asked for independence
I personally believe that the british commonwealth / dominion system should have been the 2320 outcome for both the german and british colonies ....
becoming basically independent but still very respectful towards the mother country perhaps with friehafen and crater being the disrespectful children (to parallel south africa or zimbabwe in the 1960s and 70s) .... its not as if colonial maturity = more self government is a new trend for 2320
epicenter00
SOC-13
I can't speak for anyone else, but what I meant was that it fails - Germany fails to become a significant colonial power. I am not saying that the Germans did anything wrong - only that their bid to become a significant colonial power compared to France or Great Britain fails.
I agree with Peter, to consign the German colonies to oblivion is just not supported on a historical basis. In fact I consider the German Empire to have been more successful than the French in the short term that there was actually A German Empire. The German Empire cannot in anyway be considered a failure. Now if it was spun as the result of tensions of the Reunification of Germany, and the various German states not cooperating on the Colonial worlds, then perhaps that would, to me, be more logical in the long run. IMHO one of the worst mistakes of the many mistakes made after WWI was the confiscation of the German Colonial Empire by the rapacious Allies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_colonial_empire
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_colonial_empire
The German response to colonial unrest in 2300/2320 virtually guarantees their eventual, though amicable, independence. Add to that the additional stressor of Bavarian colonies being dictated to buy a non-Bavarian gov't, and the German colonies cannot last in their present (2300AD) form. The Kafer War would have just made thing worse, though the strong, and occasionally genocidal, efforts of the German fleet would have endeared them to the colonies.
Historically, German colonies were well run (like clockwork, perhaps?), but suffered froma lack of manpower and material support. A similar situation in 2300AD leads to a similar conclusion, though this time it is independence movements rather than other countries that lead the colonies astray.
Historically, German colonies were well run (like clockwork, perhaps?), but suffered froma lack of manpower and material support. A similar situation in 2300AD leads to a similar conclusion, though this time it is independence movements rather than other countries that lead the colonies astray.
You have a point, although I think that some colonies will remain loyal to Germany out of fear of France or the other nations. The ones that had the Kafer war bang on them, will most likely (with the exception of BCV-IV) want German protection from the Evil Kafers. I still think the Germans would have learned from the lessons of prior times in regards to colonies.
If anything, the former Bavarian colonies will be pro-France, and France would be more than happy to provide them support against Germany.
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