Maximum Viable Battleship Size

[flykiller]

so did we answer the question of Maximum Viable Battleship Size?

 

[Garnfellow]

so did we answer the question of Maximum Viable Battleship Size?

Yes, and this has been a great discussion. I am still curious if T4 or T5 changes any of these parameters.

 

[Condottiere]

Budget and industrial capacity would be bottlenecks.

The Imperium enjoys at least a tech level or two edge, so the chances are they build the battleship equivalents of LCSs at two hundred kay tonnes, but using the latest innovations of tech level fifteen.

Why? If they continuously keep building, it doesn't really make sense to have a small number of second rate ships of the line, when you can have a very large number of third raters, since you're likely to keep building above the rate of attrition.

 

[Whipsnade]

Yes, and this has been a great discussion. I am still curious if T4 or T5 changes any of these parameters.

T5 changed the parameters out of recognition with it's changes to how jump works.

If any object larger than the ship which just jumped manages to "sit" on that ship's jump entry point, the ship in jump is "pinned" in place and will exit jump space after the normal time at it's point of entry. A Beowulf can pin a scout/courier and be pinned in turn by a subsidized merchant who can be pinned by subsidized liner, etc., etc., etc., and the bigger battleship cam make it's enemy doesn't escape.

We now have a "reason" for those huge battleships. Not one that deals with weapons or damage, but one that deals with preventing enemy ships from escaping via jump space.

Regarding meson gun damage, we've two somewhat different explanations of such damage in canon. There's Striker's "Everything within this radius destroyed" explanation and HG2's "Roll this many times on these damage tables" explanation. The two are different and can only be reconciled in the vaguest manner.

Yes, if Striker's depiction of meson gun damage (which I quite enjoy) were applied to ship combat any ship hit would be turned into an expanding cloud of gravel. What works well in a miniature ground combat game, however, doesn't work as well in a paper & pencil ship combat game. All weapons in HG2 roll on damage tables so the meson gun does the same.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

A meson J only gets free crits on ships of size H and lower.

Yes, and that is another advantage for the Meson N. It will produce a few crits on 10 kT (size K) craft. The J gun will mostly produce Fuel Tanks Shattered that is trivially repairable. The crits are much more expensive and time consuming to repair.

 

[Whipsnade]

The J gun will mostly produce Fuel Tanks Shattered that is trivially repairable.

Roll a 9+ with a complete crew. It's the last bit that many people forget.

How many frozen watches will it take to re-crew a ship after a single meson spinal hit?

The crits are much more expensive and time consuming to repair.

True. You'll need time, money, and yard space.

"Repairing" the crew is another question.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

the "chance of being hit" is high enough that battles are resolved quickly. presuming tech 15 vs tech 15, if I recall a "properly designed ship" (size k, non-sphere/close hull, agility 6, meson screen 9) has 1/14 chance of being hit, its screen penetrated, and being removed from further combat-relevant consideration (crew gone, power plant gone, weapon gone, any or all - usually all).

larger ships mean 1) fewer spinal mounts overall and 2) size to-hit modifiers come into play. the smaller the ships the better, but too small and excessive vulnerability to missile salvos comes into play. the sweet spot is 12k to 20k dtons.

I agree this is the consequence of the system.

But there is no single best build.

If you build size K agility 6 meson riders they will lose to particle riders or even missile frigates. (A particle T will hit on 6+ and produce a single crit against armour 15.)

If you build planetoid hulls to be safe from particles, you lose to cheap meson sleds.

If you build fast riders (Ag 6), the enemy can build twice as many slow riders (Ag 0). At short range the slow riders have an advantage. And if you retreat to keep long range your disabled craft will be boarded and captured by the enemy, you will fight them in the next battle...

If the enemy skimps on secondary missile armaments, you need less armour, and can build smaller cheaper meson sleds.


If you are the Imperium you need to build a combination of different classes to prevent the enemy from taking advantage of the weaknesses of any specific build.

 

[Whipsnade]

I agree this is the consequence of the system.

HG2's resemblance to Rock, Paper, Scissors has been long commented on.

What many forget - and what you were wise enough point out - is that if you want to win a game of Rock, Paper, Scissors you show up with rocks and paper and scissors.

If you build fast riders (Ag 6), the enemy can build twice as many slow riders (Ag 0). At short range the slow riders have an advantage. And if you retreat to keep long range your disabled craft will be boarded and captured by the enemy, you will fight them in the next battle...

I'll have to disagree here. You're focusing too much on the Range Determination system and forgetting about the To Hit rolls. Look over Agility's role in whether or not a weapon hits.

Apart from battery ratings, Agility the most important factor in the To Hit determination. Computers provide a relative bonus and the size bonuses are small. While "giving away" Agility to your opponent does mean he's more likely to choose the range, it also means he's more likely to hit your ship(s) and hitting is what it's all about.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Roll a 9+ with a complete crew. It's the last bit that many people forget.

I was thinking shipyard repair. IIRC you cannot refuel a ship during combat, so patching the tanks doesn't do much.

How many frozen watches will it take to re-crew a ship after a single meson spinal hit?

Each roll on the Radiation table does 12/36 crew hits, each roll on the Internal Exp. does 3/36, so a Meson J does average 10 × (12 + 3)/36 ≈ 4,17 crew hits (+ another .16 from crits). You basically need a full extra crew in the frozen watch to recover from a meson hit.

True. You'll need time, money, and yard space.

"Repairing" the crew is another question.

I do not think there is much problem finding able bodies, the navy personnel requirements are much lower than today. The problem is to start training the extra crew 10 years before you need them. I guess a proper navy needs a lot of extra crew, so if you need 1000 gunners you have to train 5000 or 10000 gunners.

 

[Whipsnade]

I was thinking shipyard repair. IIRC you cannot refuel a ship during combat, so patching the tanks doesn't do much.

True. If you win or, more accurately, survive the battle you can worry about refueling then.

Each roll...

Check out my new thread detailing a single meson T hit. How does the equivalent of thirteen Crew-1 hits sound? You're going to need a frozen watch for the frozen watch.

I guess a proper navy needs a lot of extra crew, so if you need 1000 gunners you have to train 5000 or 10000 gunners.

Nothing but widgets, right? Just wrap 'em in plastic and keep them in warehouses until needed, huh? We're just going to low berth a couple hundred thousand people each year?

There's a reason why Logistics is separate from Personnel...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

HG2's resemblance to Rock, Paper, Scissors has been long commented on.

Yes, quite, and I think that is a big part of why we are still talking about this system 35 years and ~5 editions later.

I'll have to disagree here. You're focusing too much on the Range Determination system and forgetting about the To Hit rolls. Look over Agility's role in whether or not a weapon hits.

Apart from battery ratings, Agility the most important factor in the To Hit determination. Computers provide a relative bonus and the size bonuses are small. While "giving away" Agility to your opponent does mean he's more likely to choose the range, it also means he's more likely to hit your ship(s) and hitting is what it's all about.

Yes, agility is very good, but it is also very expensive. At TL15 we are talking about 17% + 6% + 6% + crew + purification ≈ 30% of the ship.

As a quick estimate a rider with Meson N, agility 6, and armour 15 is 10 kT and GCr 10. With agility 0 it is 6300 dT and GCr 6. With tenders included I still get 10 slow riders for 6 fast riders.

At short range a fast rider is hit on 4 + 6 [agility] - 2 [range] = 8+ (15/36), a slow rider is hit 4 - 2 = 2+ (autohit). Penetration is 7+ (21/36) for screen and 4+ (33/36) for configuration.
Slow rider firing: 15/36 × 21/36 × 33/36 ≈ 22,3% kill.
Fast rider firing: 36/36 × 21/36 × 33/36 ≈ 53,5% kill.
Slow squadron archives 10 × 22,3% ≈ 2.2 kills or 2,2 / 6 ≈ 36,7% of enemy force.
Fast squadron achieves 6 × 53,3% ≈ 3,2 kills or 3,2 / 10 ≈ 32% of enemy force.
The slow riders have a slight advantage at short range, but will be shot to pieces at long range.



A worse example is planetoids (to counter someone who is overfond of missiles):
A fast planetoid rider with Meson N, Ag 6, Armour 20 is 30 kT and GCr 20.
A slow planetoid rider with Meson N, Ag 0, Armour 20 is 12 kT and GCr 7.
With tenders I get about 26 slow riders for 10 fast riders.

At short range a fast rider is hit on 4 + 6 - 2 - 1 [size] = 7+ (21/36), a slow rider is hit 4 - 2 = 2+ (autohit). Penetration is 7+ (21/36) for screen and 6+ (26/36) for configuration.

Slow rider firing: 21/36 × 21/36 × 26/36 ≈ 24,6% kill.
Fast rider firing: 36/36 × 21/36 × 26/36 ≈ 42,1% kill.
Slow squadron archives 26 × 24,6% ≈ 6,4 kills or 6,4 / 10 ≈ 64% of enemy force.
Fast squadron achieves 10 × 42,1% ≈ 4,2 kills or 4,2 / 26 ≈ 16% of enemy force.
Here we simply cannot afford both the heavy armour and max agility, the slow riders win easily.


I agree that agility is very good, but it is not always automatically better. The devil is in the details.

 

[RandyB]

Nothing but widgets, right? Just wrap 'em in plastic and keep them in warehouses until needed, huh? We're just going to low berth a couple hundred thousand people each year?

There's a reason why Logistics is separate from Personnel...

I forget... what does TL15 cloning technology look like?

 

[robject]

What about T4 or T5 -- Do they change the viable sizes of battleships?

T5 hasn't defined spine rules yet, so that remains to be seen.

 

[flykiller]

Yes, agility is very good, but it is also very expensive.

winning is expensive. losing is more expensive.

But there is no single best build

if you want to win a game of Rock, Paper, Scissors you show up with rocks and paper and scissors

have to disagree. if you try to show up with everything you show up with not enough of anything. for better or for worse, the "single best build" must be attempted. like you said, battles are not ballet but barroom brawls, and trying to to choreograph a hybrid fleet would be an operational nightmare.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

have to disagree. if you try to show up with everything you show up with not enough of anything. for better or for worse, the "single best build" must be attempted. like you said, battles are not ballet but barroom brawls, and trying to to choreograph a hybrid fleet would be an operational nightmare.

Take a look at the tournament-winning fleet in JTAS#10. It has missile rocks, meson "riders", and particle "riders". It probably requires a better tactic than tossing everything you have into the line of battle and see what happens.

If you build your entire fleet around a single design, you invite the enemy to take advantage. E.g. if you build standard riders, the enemy will counter with particle spinals. If you build a few BatRons of particle-proof planetoids, that is much less attractive.

The "single best build" will become the "single worst build".

You do not need to mix every fleet, but you need to keep the enemy guessing.

 

[flykiller]

(shrug) wars aren't tournaments.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

(shrug) wars aren't tournaments.

Does a carrier group consist of a single "best build" ship class?

 

[Condottiere]

You go to war with what you have, not what you wished you had.

 

[mike wightman]

Something to remember about those tournament ships - they were capped at TLC.
As you advance through the TLs the nature of the 'best design' changes, which is one of the most overlooked, and best, features of HG.

 

[flykiller]

Does a carrier group consist of a single "best build" ship class?

nope. but traveller is not "sea-going navy in space".