General Military ship tonnage versus polity size/affluence?

[gchuck]

Is there a rule(of thumb?) related to the size of the ships a polity is trying to produce? Assuming a Class A starport.
Where it's highly unlikely that a polity consisting of 4-10 systems is going to have the capacity(fiscal/industrial) to produce a Tigress, and it's support mechanisms. Does anyone else have guidelines on this?

 

[Carlobrand]

Well, Striker has some rough rules to determine a world's income and contribution to the budget, as does Trillion Credit Squadron. They arrive at it differently, but it should give you a reasonable number to work with. That will give you a budget. It's not written in stone though; factors like how badly you need the fleet might affect the budget.

Shipyard capacity is governed by the population on a given world, at least in TCS, and it would make sense that a world with more people available to be the workforce and otherwise work in industries supporting the port would be able to build more and larger craft. If you've got a high-pop world in the polity, you may find you can build bigger craft than you need, at least in terms of a balanced fleet and having enough small ships to support the big ones.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

No guidelines, no railroads. Do what you want.

A small polity might have more battle squadrons, a large sprawling might have more cruiser squadrons?

 

[atpollard]

No guidelines, no railroads. Do what you want.

A small polity might have more battle squadrons, a large sprawling might have more cruiser squadrons?

That's a half-truth [since the OP is not edition specific]. Some books in some versions have data on Gross Product and no "polity" [which implies NON-Imperium] can build fleets whose annual maintenance exceeds its Gross Product. So there are guidelines on TOTAL BUDGET.

However, within that budget, you are 100% correct that they could have 1 big ship to defend all their worlds or a massive fleet of 100 dTon warships ... the rules are agnostic on fleet composition.

 

[Condottiere]

Depends on how unfriendly your neighbourhood is, and if there is an arms race.

If you knew what the gross domestic product is, you could allocate two percent to the military, on average.

 

[atpollard]

If you knew what the gross domestic product is, you could allocate two percent to the military, on average.

Look HERE (Traveller Map) for Average per capita GDP

 

[atpollard]

Does anyone else have guidelines on this?

Yup, but not me ...

I'm conceptualizing this notion in the context of CT (because CT is what I know), but the formulation works just as well for other editions of Traveller (I presume).

---

It always felt a little bit ... hinky ... that type A and B starports had "no meaningful upper limits" placed on the hull sizes that they could construct in CT.

• LBB2 limited craft to 5000 tons because that was the limit of the design system.
• LBB5 limited craft to 1,000,000 tons because that was the limit of the design system ... although computer model tech level requirements effectively put an upper limit on hull sizes via a kind of back door.

But other than that ... it's basically "build anything, anywhere" with no meaningful guidance regarding the "limits" of shipyard construction capabilities, other than tech level (via backdoor methodology, and sometimes not even that!).

---

What I propose is:

1. Worlds with Population: 0-6 (Non-industrial trade code), USP hull sizes are limited to the UWP population code.
   • Population: 2 world can construct up to Hull Size: 2 (200-299 tons) craft.
2. Worlds with Population: 7-A that are not Industrialized, USP hull sizes are limited to UWP tech level code.
   • Tech Level: C world can construct up to Hull Size: C (3000-3999 tons) craft.
3. Worlds with the Industrialized trade code are limited to Hull Size: Y (1,000,000 tons)

Point being that only the highest population Industrialized worlds are capable of constructing Big Ship Universe stuff (20k ton cruisers up through 500k ton dreadnoughts and the like). Meanwhile, on the lower end, there is a better grasp on the construction capacities of non-industrial shipyards limited to Small Ship Universe stuff that will mostly be classified as ACS.

With such a guideline in place, if I want to know "how big of a starship" a location such as Paya/Aramis/Spinward Marches is capable of constructing, I can simply look at the UWP (A655241-9) and note that although the mainworld has a type A starport, the Population: 2 will limit the construction capability there to Hull Size: 2 (200-299 tons) and TL=9 ... so if I want to build something 300+ tons in size, I'm going to need to take my business someplace other than Paya to get the job done.

For ACS market segments, this then gives a reasonable sliding scale for the expectations of "what can be built where" on the low end, while simultaneously emphasizing the importance of industrialized worlds (especially the higher tech industrialized ones!) on the upper end of the BCS.

So using the Spinward Marches as an example of how this plays out ... Glisten, Rhylanor, Mora and Trin all have type A starports and TL=F ... but only Glisten, Mora and Trin are industrialized worlds, Rhylanor is not.

So even though Rhylanor can build TL=F starships, the shipyard facilities at Rhylanor would be limited to a maximum Hull Size: F (6000-6999 tons), which is still "plenty" of any LBB2 design and most commercial shipping designs but doesn't reach all the way up really big LBB5 stuff.

However, any "big iron" Imperial Navy construction of cruisers up through dreadnoughts would have to come from Glisten, Mora or Trin as industrialized TL=F shipyards within the Spinward Marches sector.

Such a distinction in limitations then helps give ... added texture ... to the kinds of market segments that various type A/B starports can support when it comes to construction capacity, along with a better idea of the relative importance of industrialized worlds in the web of interstellar trade and military services.

---

Thoughts?
If enough people support this idea, I'll cross-post this into the House Rules forum for preservation ... but right now I'm more interested in knowing what people think.

Enjoy.

 

[Marcatlas]

Is there a rule(of thumb?) related to the size of the ships a polity is trying to produce? Assuming a Class A starport.
Where it's highly unlikely that a polity consisting of 4-10 systems is going to have the capacity(fiscal/industrial) to produce a Tigress, and it's support mechanisms. Does anyone else have guidelines on this?

Nope. Look at early 20th century warships. Small countries produced battle wagons like the largest countries made. Like Chile.

 

[Condottiere]

They ordered them from the Great Powers.

But when the rubber hit the road, a lot found that they couldn't afford them.

 

[kilemall]

Nope. Look at early 20th century warships. Small countries produced battle wagons like the largest countries made. Like Chile.

In most cases they bought British, including Chile/Peru’s Huascsr.

 

[atpollard]

But when the rubber hit the road, a lot found that they couldn't afford them.

I bet repossessing a Battleship requires a special individual ... now THERE is a Traveller Adventure.

 

[Marcatlas]

I bet repossessing a Battleship requires a special individual ... now THERE is a Traveller Adventure.

Exactly! But, countries constantly spend money on things they cannot afford. So, not relevant to the question asked.

 

[Garnfellow]

Is there a rule(of thumb?) related to the size of the ships a polity is trying to produce? Assuming a Class A starport.
Where it's highly unlikely that a polity consisting of 4-10 systems is going to have the capacity(fiscal/industrial) to produce a Tigress, and it's support mechanisms. Does anyone else have guidelines on this?

There are some guidelines in T5 for determining the average common TL and maximum TL of a region like a subsector. If I remember correctly, one is based on the TL of the most important world and the other is the highest TL industrial world. The TL helps set available ships, including tonnage if you use CT's computer limitations.

I used these T5 guidelines when writing about the small polities in the Buffer for The Deep and The Dark. As guidelines go, they seemed reasonable.

As others have noted, a polity can always choose or be forced to import higher TL goods like starships, but probably at higher cost.

 

[gchuck]

Pretty much confirms my feelings.

So clouds of 100-500dton gunboats for the 'minnows' on the map it is!

 

[whartung]

Depends on the use case.

I mean, locally, smaller countries tend to not need deep water navies simply because they're not playing that game. They're not going to go up again the major powers, so they stick with smaller vessels that are not just cheaper, but perform admirably for local border control, customs, and, perhaps, fishing patrols.

Big ships are built not just to carry larger systems, but to handle deep, hostile, open ocean.

Of course, in space, it's all deep and hostile. But you can have craft that are a) not jump worthy (that's part of it), and b) craft that aren't designed for "5 year missions", but designed to patrol and work in a local, "populated" star system. If you always have a rescue ship 1 day away, you don't need to stock up for 30 days. Things like that.

The real point of discrimination is simply the threat you are building up to protect against. If it's 1000 dTon raiding Corsairs, funding a 300KdTon battle ship probably not appropriate.

The threat defines the navy, hampered by the budget available.

 

[Spinward Flow]

So clouds of 100-500dton gunboats for the 'minnows' on the map it is!

Still currently thinking that the 1000-1999 (hull code: A, which is the "biggest" -1DM to hit under LBB5.80) armed with a bay weapon (50 or 100 tons) and some turret batteries makes for a really decent military frigate that can be a threat to anything that's too small for a spinal mount.

At 1800 tons displacement, you could have:

• 1x particle accelerator bay = 1 battery ("the big gun")
• 2x triple sandcaster turrets = 1 battery
• 2x triple beam laser turrets = 1 battery
• 2x dual fusion gun turrets = 1 battery
• 2x triple missile turrets = 1 battery

And that's your TL=12+ military frigate design (eligible for a nuclear dampener and a meson screen) that can do everything from "show the flag" to gunboat diplomacy.

Not too shabby, even if I do say so myself ...

 

[kilemall]

Still currently thinking that the 1000-1999 (hull code: A, which is the "biggest" -1DM to hit under LBB5.80) armed with a bay weapon (50 or 100 tons) and some turret batteries makes for a really decent military frigate that can be a threat to anything that's too small for a spinal mount.

At 1800 tons displacement, you could have:

• 1x particle accelerator bay = 1 battery ("the big gun")
• 2x triple sandcaster turrets = 1 battery
• 2x triple beam laser turrets = 1 battery
• 2x dual fusion gun turrets = 1 battery
• 2x triple missile turrets = 1 battery

And that's your TL=12+ military frigate design (eligible for a nuclear dampener and a meson screen) that can do everything from "show the flag" to gunboat diplomacy.

Not too shabby, even if I do say so myself ...

600 more tons then Kininur, so let’s not forget black globe and marine gig/drop intervention/boarding force.

 

[Spinward Flow]

600 more tons then Kininur

True, but the Kinunir was limited by LBB2.77 design rules. That meant that Z-drives were the biggest option, and when Z=24 (because the letters I and O get dropped to avoid confusion with the numbers 1 and 0) ... when every letter equals code: 1 @ 200 tons (where have I seen that argued before? ), you wind up with Z= code: 1 @ 4800 tons = code: 4 @ 1200 tons ... and as we all know, the Kinunir was a J4/4G @ 1200 tons of starship in LBB A1 (pre-model/8 and 9 computers).

so let’s not forget black globe

Traveller "canonically" has been at pains to point out that black globes aren't something the Third Imperium was capable of "manufacturing" (from scratch). Instead, the few black globes "in circulation" are basically "finds" from Ancient Sites recovered and refurbished into working condition. My point being that there isn't exactly an assembly line somewhere cranking out black globes at industrialized scales and rates.

In light of that, the notion that TWENTY black globes would be "wasted" on the "failure of a design" represented by the Kinunir class is kind of extraordinary, in retrospective hindsight.

and marine gig/drop intervention/boarding force.

Jump capsules are a "nice idea" ... until you start thinking in terms of "useful numbers of troops" and the kind of logistical support they're going to NEED if you want them to operate longer than a few hours. They're basically "orbital paratroopers" (more or less), which makes logistical support really problematic (for the troops!) if they drop and the parent ship can't get back to them. In terms of beachhead/securing a landing zone perimeter, which is a very short term mission, jump troop capsules make for a compelling option.

However, I honestly think that in some ways you're better off with "troop transport" small craft combined with armed small craft fighter cover/escorts (such as my 20 ton Box and Escort Fighter designs that I've been researching).

The Kinunir had 35 marines for a 1200 ton starship.
1200/35 = 3 marines per 102.85 tons of starship

If you have an 1800 ton starship, 3 marines per 100 tons computes out to 54 marines.
Platoon (41) + Squad (9) + Fire Team (4) = 54

11x 20 ton Stateroom Boxes would be sufficient to provide a single occupancy stateroom for up to 55 marines.
6x 20 ton Stateroom Boxes would provide 50 double occupancy (barracks) staterooms and 5 single occupancy (officer) staterooms for up to 55 marines.

Can do 40 ton streamlined hull orbital shuttle small craft that have a 22 ton internal hangar bay for loading 1x 20 ton Box into and you've got your surface to orbit capability for being able to deposit a basecamp on a world surface. Add extra Cargo Boxes loaded with vehicles and expeditionary supplies and you're good to go for establishing a pathfinder outpost.

220 tons of internal hangar bay space on the starship will net you:

• 1x 20 ton Escort Fighter
• 1x 40 ton Orbital Transfer Shuttle
• 6x 20 ton Stateroom Boxes for 55 marines
• 2x 20 ton Cargo Boxes for vehicles and consumables

Not a bad bargain, all things considered.
Jump capsules would cost extra tonnage (of course), as would additional Cargo Boxes for an increased number of vehicles and consumables.

Still 220/1800=12.22% of the overall displacement budget of an 1800 ton starship, yielding a "deployable reinforced platoon basecamp" option for a military frigate. For "small operations" that's enough to do something "useful" with as far as mission tasking is concerned ... especially if the mission is to "drop off" the basecamp and then deploy the starship elsewhere, leaving the troops behind with enough supplies to last them for a while.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Nope. Look at early 20th century warships. Small countries produced battle wagons like the largest countries made. Like Chile.

While they do have indigneous shipbuiding capability, most of Chile's big ships and submarines were sourced from Europe. (Also true historically.)

 

[Grav_Moped]

"failure of a design" represented by the Kinunir class

It's only really a "failure" under LBB5'80 (as with the AHLs). It's decent under the '79 rules that didn't track EP or agility (and had limited computer options), especially in a setting where it's expected that ships above 2000Td aren't going to have maxed-out performance. That is, a small-ship universe that was mostly LBB2 with LBB5 for the exceptions at the 5-12KTd "high end". Remember, as written, Kinunirs were capital ships!

Mind you, that's not even the setting implied by LBB5'79 RAW. It was, however, the OTU at that point in its publication history.

This is a problem with all of the rules version changes, and separate from the problem of LBB2 ships not being properly optimized for their roles (Types T and C not built to support Double-Fire as a case in point).