Mongoose Mercenary

[aramis]

COTI is Hunter's board. I happen to have been the first volunteer in my "class" of mods, and worked with Hunter directly to rewrite the board rules. Andrew and I have worked to keep the board well moderated.

I receive no compensation of any kind.

My favored system is MegaTraveller.

MT, TNE, T4, GT, T20, and HT are all currently available via electronic means.
CT, GTIW, HT, and MGT are all available on paper.

MGT isn't the best of the lot. In terms of product quality, that is, hands down, GT/GTIW. Not that I care for GT a whit; neé, I despise GT. But the production quality is top-notch, and the editing excellent. And, while the content is excellent, I mildly dislike the GURPS 3R engine, and the GT3E rules were even worse; GTFT makes a lot of assumptions that are not directly supportable in canon.

But, for what it's worth, GT is consistently very well written (proper language, proper editing).

I'm a MegaTraveller fan-boy; have been since about 6 months after I got it.

Your implication, however, that the mods are putting forth an agenda against mongoose is a dangerous game; it feels like a personal attack. We're Traveller fans, and except for one, not in contact with MWM in any regular basis. Most of us are setting fans, at that; an area attacked openly on the Mongoose run board.

Don McKinney IS MWM's current mouthpiece, and is MWM's liaison with the T5 subscription area. Don's also a major MegaTraveller fan.

S4 isn't a mod. But he's a long time user, and tends to be polite in his posts. His review was informative for me; while I don't see eye to eye with him on a great many things, his reviews of product tend to be similar to my own.

As for GT:

Marc allowed GT to remain renewable, unlike the other licensees. I think that a solid business plan, despite my dislike of GT.

Remember: insinuations of inappropriate behavior by mods should be made in the Website Issues forums, not couched inside other threads. We do monitor each other. Hunter also acts on those.

Also: mild thread drift here is fairly tolerated. Always has been.

 

[mmbutter]

CT, GTIW, HT, and MGT are all available on paper.

Actually, a quick glance at the GURPS Traveller Products page will show that most of the GT products remain in print on paper.

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

"Your implication, however, that the mods are putting forth an agenda against mongoose is a dangerous game; it feels like a personal attack. We're Traveller fans, and except for one, not in contact with MWM in any regular basis. Most of us are setting fans, at that; an area attacked openly on the Mongoose run board."

Oh, my mistake then. It looked like from all of those posts that I read last night over in the T5 and Mongoose forum looked as if the Mods were sort of giving the wink to Mongoose Bashing. All of those people on other boards that don't want to come here, or "write it off" must be wrong.

"dangerous Game" ? "personal Attack"? "insinuation?"

Really Aramis? Really? You think I'm personally attacking you? Or playing games? Interesting. Because I'm really not.

You let me know what forum or sub forum that we should post this new topic on.

 

[Echo]

I'm not going to drop to the level of accusing mods about their motives - which is below the belt - but I would simply say, again, that this issue is not going to go away without strong and clear guidelines for conduct on this forum, from the moderators.

Players who are fans of this version of the game should not have to repeatedly justify why they like it, or deal with 'fanboy' labels, or be dragged into arguments with Martin Luther wannabies claiming their 'freedom of speech', or even simply being repeatedly told how much their version of the game sucks (that's what the other forums are for!). If you've actually gone to the trouble of creating a 'Mongoose Traveller' forum, then the people who'd actually like to post there deserve better. Besides, I simply cannot understand the motivation for people who prefer other versions of the game, to keep posting about how disappointed they are with it anyway. What is the point?

At the strictly commercial level, Mongoose Traveller is selling well, as an open-licence no less, and one that is mostly compatible with several prior editions. Surely then, there is scope for fans of other systems to see how their preferences can also tap into that market too? If they think they can do better than Mongoose, then go ahead and do so! However, most casual fans that I know, put a lot of stock in the behaviour of the fanbases that they choose to get involved with - in terms of it not being tribalised or cliquish, and not having protracted flame wars.

And I guess, that is all I've got to say about that.

 

[atpollard]

I think the editorial skills horse has been flogged to death. Time to move on.

Just out of curiosity, are pages 10 & 11 what you had in mind?

 

[Andrew Boulton]

Not quite, no.

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

Thank you, Echo, for echoing my thoughts exactly on this.

I am not "accusing" anyone of doing anything. I am reacting to a post on another board that says that people were being essentially harranged off of this site, and that turns out to be true.

I object to the adversarial tone of the moderation this case, with this "dangerous game" nonsense and "attacks" and "implications". This is a game forum, not a courtroom. I have done nothing wrong besides object in no uncertain terms to COTI's name being dragged thru the mud over nonsense.

If you guys are mods, and you have a forum section that has multiple versions of Traveller listed, does that not imply that all forms are taken here?

I could understand this version Tribalism if we were talking about a game that has vast, worldwide success, with legions of dedicated and casual players, but in this case, where products struggle for the most part to see the light of day, let alone get exposure outside of this community, this behavior is damn near brand suicide.

It shows a fundamental lack of respect, as well. Sort of like having someone over your house for dinner, and then telling them that they eat like a hog. What a fine example we set.

 

[Supplement Four]

It shows a fundamental lack of respect, as well.

Actually, all it shows is that not everyone is enamored with Mongoose Traveller. There are people who don't like the game and are disappointed in what Mongoose did with it.

I feel that many Mongoose Traveller supporters are engaged in reverse censorship. Their posts (and yours, so far) come across as, "Hey, I LOVE MGT, and if YOU don't like MGT, then YOU must be an idiot, because the game is so GOOD, and I LOVE it so much, and, and...".

It's OK to like MGT. It's not a crime.

By the same token, it's OK to not like MGT. That's not a crime either.

 

[tbeard1999]

I will address the 800-pound gorilla in the room then.

Tbeard, you wouldn't work for another game company or something would you?

Uh, no. I'm a Texas attorney specializing in representing family business owners in tax planning and merger/acquisitions. Do a fair amount of business litigation and a lot of business structuring work.

I am an amateur game designer--my "Fistful of TOWs" modern miniature wargame rules have been well-received. I've released a number of free miniatures rules over the last decade and most have been well regarded as far as I can tell. I am also a "systems wonk" and love to tinker with games.

While I'd love to be a professional game designer, I don't think I could take the pay cut...

I'm a bit confused. Didn't you playtest the Core book or something? I am not sure why you are working overtime to convince people that it sucks so much.

My name was included in the playtest list, presuambly because I emailed my MGT criticisms to Mongoose as they requested on their forum. I have no official involvement in MGT.

I guess I'm "working overtime to convince people" for the same reason you are...

Plus, it keeps me out the bars.

You should note, however, that I have not universally condemned everything MGT. Perhaps you missed it, but I made a fairly spirited defense of Mongoose's fair use policy, logo policy and OGL awhile back. I have freely acknowledged that I like some systems in MGT (starship design, character generation). I've praised Mongoose for its generousity in allowing players to use its intellectual property. I applauded Mongoose when they admitted mistakes and corrected them. rather than ignoring them or denying them.

Of course, I do think that Mercenary is an embarrassment, but even there, I think that I've defended my position competently

Can I ask a favor? If you have a review of a product, could you please write one, even a negative one, and put it in COTI's "Reviews" section, rather than doing whatever this is? It will dust off some cobwebs in the section, and maybe even encourage other people to write other reviews.

I'll consider it. However, I don't tend to write a definitive "review". Rather, I post initial impressions, then followup as I become more familiar with the material.

I ask because of this post:

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=37117&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30

To sum up, people are starting to think that we're a bunch of jerks over here, and that is hurting this website's image. Part of COTI's funding is from private sources, and some people have even begun to pull out over this.

Well, I am blissfully unconcerned with the opinion of the MGT forum and will exert precisely NO effort to change their opinion. As I see it, the loudest whiners at the Mongoose forum exemplify the qualities that they condemn COTI for.

I am not asking you as a moderator, or anything like that. I am asking you as a member that is on the fence about paying to help support this community. To "buy" the COTI product. And this sort of thing is making it a pretty hard sell.

I'm sorry, but I must refuse. It sounds to me like you're trying to surreptitiously quash criticism of MGT and I will not assist you in doing so. If COTI is going to become a MGT fan site, then it needs to do so openly.

 

[tbeard1999]

as

You might as well try to catch space itself. They won't listen.

Allen

In my opinion, "they" won't listen for the simple reason that MGT fans have not been able to make the case that the game is a particularly well-designed product.

I have made numerous specific critiques of the game and for the most part, the response of MGT fans is to whine that I am somehow irrationally biased against the game. Perhaps you guys would do better to actually respond to the arguments made, rather than complain about bias. Because at the end of the day, a factual assertion stands on its own.

And you might also consider *not* reacting emotionally to *every* criticism of MGT. At the very least, it opens you to the same criticism you so easily level at those you disagree with.

Just a thought.

 

[tbeard1999]

I'm not going to drop to the level of accusing mods about their motives - which is below the belt - but I would simply say, again, that this issue is not going to go away without strong and clear guidelines for conduct on this forum, from the moderators.

Players who are fans of this version of the game should not have to repeatedly justify why they like it, or deal with 'fanboy' labels, or be dragged into arguments with Martin Luther wannabies claiming their 'freedom of speech', or even simply being repeatedly told how much their version of the game sucks (that's what the other forums are for!). If you've actually gone to the trouble of creating a 'Mongoose Traveller' forum, then the people who'd actually like to post there deserve better.

So...what you want is a forum in which criticism of MGT is not tolerated?

 

[Echo]

And so, once again, we get the 'Rights of Man' speeches.

Like I say, nothing is going to change on this forum as it is, and that is why it is becoming controversial elsewhere, why users are leaving, and why nothing progressive ever gets discussed here.

 

[tbeard1999]

So...what you want is a forum in which criticism of MGT is not tolerated?

And so, once again, we get the 'Rights of Man' speeches.

Like I say, nothing is going to change on this forum as it is, and that is why it is becoming controversial elsewhere, why users are leaving, and why nothing progressive ever gets discussed here.

Actually, all I wanted was a clarification of what you are asking for. Your answer implies that yes, you would like to ban criticism of MGT. Is this an accurate summary of your position? If not, please clarify.

 

[Echo]

I'm not in court now, Ty, and I couldn't give a toss whether you want clarification or not.

What I've said is what I've said, and if you want to interpret that for your own means of pushing another argument, then I will refer you to an answer given to a taxman some eons ago.

 

[Border Reiver]

As the thread starter I cannot help but feel this has strayed along way from my intent which was an initial review of Mercenary.

I'll stand by my guns and say that Mercenary is sadly lacking in some areas, not bad in others. Not really the book I was expecting (generic or not) and I'll continue to say that the playtesters must have been sleeping when they put together the weapons and equipment section, they are utter pants. It is still a handy book for those playing MGT.

Now we've heard a defence of it and other criticisms but now the thread has once more devolved into a proMGT versus antiMGT slugfest and I'm sick to death of it!

Take your crap off my thread or I'll request it closed.

 

[aramis]

And so, once again, we get the 'Rights of Man' speeches.

Like I say, nothing is going to change on this forum as it is, and that is why it is becoming controversial elsewhere, why users are leaving, and why nothing progressive ever gets discussed here.

Several of those disaffected users were being dinged for inappropriate posts, and are upset about it, but citing false reasons.

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

No one is talking about rights, censorship, or anything like that. At least I'm not.

All I am asking is that a return to a bit of self-governance. And respect that is shown to anyone that prefers a particular version of Traveller.

I myself have had some beefs with many Traveller liscencee products, content wise, quality wise, cost wise, and any wise you care to name, but I hope that I've never gone so far as to say "Don't buy it" to anything that is furthering interest in Traveller.

It should be up to the prospective buyer's judgement as to what is good or not. Maybe they dont like MGT, but in discovering MGT, get into T20, GT, and on. What's the diff?

Clearly, this issue can only be settled with Striker!

 

[tbeard1999]

No one is talking about rights, censorship, or anything like that. At least I'm not.

All I am asking is that a return to a bit of self-governance. And respect that is shown to anyone that prefers a particular version of Traveller.

I myself have had some beefs with many Traveller liscencee products, content wise, quality wise, cost wise, and any wise you care to name, but I hope that I've never gone so far as to say "Don't buy it" to anything that is furthering interest in Traveller.

It should be up to the prospective buyer's judgement as to what is good or not. Maybe they dont like MGT, but in discovering MGT, get into T20, GT, and on. What's the diff?

Clearly, this issue can only be settled with Striker!

Maybe so. I don't have a problem with an appeal to civility, but I am troubled by the fact that you apparently equate blunt criticism of a product with uncivil personal attacks against those who like that product. Please confirm if you intended to imply that.

Myself, I think that it is ridiculous to equate "this product is crap" with "you are an idiot for liking this product". Seems to me that the first should be allowed as a legitimate (if coarse) critique, especially if the poster backs that statement up with evidence tending to prove that it is crap. The second statement, of course, is uncivil and should be prohibited.

But what troubles me is that some folks seem to be trying to bootstrap legitimate criticism of a product into personal attacks on folks who like the product.

 

[atpollard]

As the thread starter I cannot help but feel this has strayed along way from my intent which was an initial review of Mercenary.

I'll stand by my guns and say that Mercenary is sadly lacking in some areas, not bad in others. Not really the book I was expecting (generic or not) and I'll continue to say that the playtesters must have been sleeping when they put together the weapons and equipment section, they are utter pants. It is still a handy book for those playing MGT.

Now we've heard a defence of it and other criticisms but now the thread has once more devolved into a proMGT versus antiMGT slugfest and I'm sick to death of it!

Take your crap off my thread or I'll request it closed.

A Good try.

 

[Allensh]

In my opinion, "they" won't listen for the simple reason that MGT fans have not been able to make the case that the game is a particularly well-designed product.

I have made numerous specific critiques of the game and for the most part, the response of MGT fans is to whine that I am somehow irrationally biased against the game. Perhaps you guys would do better to actually respond to the arguments made, rather than complain about bias. Because at the end of the day, a factual assertion stands on its own.

And you might also consider *not* reacting emotionally to *every* criticism of MGT. At the very least, it opens you to the same criticism you so easily level at those you disagree with.

Just a thought.

I am so sick of this.

I am NOT TRYING TO QUASH CRITICISM OF ANYTHING!! I merely felt that in the Mongoose Traveller section, one should be free to discuss the game in threads that are not set up for critcism without having Supplement Four in particular come swooping in and making asinine comments and engaging in threadcrapping. There is a place and appropriate threads where criticism of stuff can occur. I also feel that insulting posts made by people who have not actually read the book in question at the time said posts were made and therefore are basically inflammatory and ignorant statements designed to denigrate people who might have positive things to say about a product (this refers to the thread on 760 patrons...and a comment which in my opinion disproves Aramis's characterization of S4 as "polite) are wrong and should stop.

The real problem here is the "you're trying to silence my criticism!" tactic that is being used to justify threadcrapping and nastiness. It is disingenuous at best. And I don't think "best" applies here.

Allen