More Damage Thoughts

[Supplement Four]

Something else to ponder...

An AutoPistol or an AutoRifle does 3D damage.

Either of these weapons, hitting an average character with physical stats 777, only has a 16% chance of seriously wounding the target (rolling 14+ on 3D).

What that means is: 84% of the time, an AutoPistol or an AutoRifle will only inflict a Minor Wound on an average target (777).

So...does it seem that damage should be considered trauma given this?

If I pull out a .45 automatic pistol and shoot you with it, should you have an 84% chance of being completely healed, with no medical help, within 3 days?

More stuff why I'm starting to lean harder on the idea that Traveller wound damage should be judged on damage effects rather than the number of points inflicted.

 

[Supplement Four]

Something else to ponder...

An AutoPistol or an AutoRifle does 3D damage.

Either of these weapons, hitting an average character with physical stats 777, only has a 16% chance of seriously wounding the target (rolling 14+ on 3D).

What that means is: 84% of the time, an AutoPistol or an AutoRifle will only inflict a Minor Wound on an average target (777).

So...does it seem that damage should be considered trauma given this?

If I pull out a .45 automatic pistol and shoot you with it, should you have an 84% chance of being completely healed, with no medical help, within 3 days?

More stuff why I'm starting to lean harder on the idea that Traveller wound damage should be judged on damage effects rather than the number of points inflicted.

 

[aramis]

The issue, then, is why is damage rated so low?

One other thing...

It's not of need "completely healed" after three days. It is just no longer impairing after three days.

Which matches the effects of both the two times I've been hit with firearms, and many fencing injuries. Of course, one particular fencing injury, repeated small hits, none as bad as the worst single hit, resulted in a cracked rib, 6" tall 2" wide bruise (sub-Q bleed), and several weeks of impairment.

 

[aramis]

The issue, then, is why is damage rated so low?

One other thing...

It's not of need "completely healed" after three days. It is just no longer impairing after three days.

Which matches the effects of both the two times I've been hit with firearms, and many fencing injuries. Of course, one particular fencing injury, repeated small hits, none as bad as the worst single hit, resulted in a cracked rib, 6" tall 2" wide bruise (sub-Q bleed), and several weeks of impairment.

 

[Supplement Four]

OK, here's a thought....




Let's keep damage as trauma. Let's make it deadly. In fact, let's use the first blood rule every time a character is hit by gunfire (meaning that all damage is taken from a randomly chosen physical stat, and the damage is carried over to the next stat if the first one goes to zero).

If we do this (or something like it), damage in Traveller will be very realistic and deadly.

But, how do we play the game if damage is modeled with such reality?

What we'd have to do is MAKE IT HARDER TO HIT.

That's the key. Damage can be very, very realistic in Traveller. BUT, we've got to make it harder to hit. That way, most of the time, bullets will go flying around our heroes (the PCs) like they do in the movies without any of them getting hit.

If they do get hit, though, then it's going to be bad news. They're going to be shot in a realistic way.




How to pull this off....

We need some type of mechanic or modifier that makes it harder to hit.

Maybe the doulbles idea will work: All to-hit throws are performed just as detailed in the rules, BUT a shot will only hit if the total is 8+ AND the dice show doubles.

So, if you rolled 2D and got 6, 5, and all your DMs brought your total to 14, you'd MISS.

But, if you rolled 2D and got 5, 5, and all your DMs brought your total to 13, you'd HIT.

You can only hit when the dice show doubles AND result in a number that is 8+.




THINK of how quick this would be during a game! The player would throw his 2D, and if they weren't doubles, then nobody would worry about adding in modifiers...the shot would miss. You'd only start looking at an attack roll to hit if the throw were doubles.




If the doubles thing doesn't appeal, then we can also make it harder to hit by using some sort of other DM to the attack roll (one that would make it very hard to hit).

Maybe we could base this number on a character stat (DEX?).

We could do something like: give each character a base evasion number. It would be another DM needed to hit that character.

Or, we could use something like a Luck DM.

Whatever is chosed, the result is a DM that makes characters harder to hit.

This way, damage is REAL DAMAGE. It hurts. If your character gets shot, he'll be as incapciated from the wound as a real person would be in the real world.

The difference would be that we'd cut down on the likelyhood of the character getting hit.


Thoughts about this?

 

[Supplement Four]

OK, here's a thought....




Let's keep damage as trauma. Let's make it deadly. In fact, let's use the first blood rule every time a character is hit by gunfire (meaning that all damage is taken from a randomly chosen physical stat, and the damage is carried over to the next stat if the first one goes to zero).

If we do this (or something like it), damage in Traveller will be very realistic and deadly.

But, how do we play the game if damage is modeled with such reality?

What we'd have to do is MAKE IT HARDER TO HIT.

That's the key. Damage can be very, very realistic in Traveller. BUT, we've got to make it harder to hit. That way, most of the time, bullets will go flying around our heroes (the PCs) like they do in the movies without any of them getting hit.

If they do get hit, though, then it's going to be bad news. They're going to be shot in a realistic way.




How to pull this off....

We need some type of mechanic or modifier that makes it harder to hit.

Maybe the doulbles idea will work: All to-hit throws are performed just as detailed in the rules, BUT a shot will only hit if the total is 8+ AND the dice show doubles.

So, if you rolled 2D and got 6, 5, and all your DMs brought your total to 14, you'd MISS.

But, if you rolled 2D and got 5, 5, and all your DMs brought your total to 13, you'd HIT.

You can only hit when the dice show doubles AND result in a number that is 8+.




THINK of how quick this would be during a game! The player would throw his 2D, and if they weren't doubles, then nobody would worry about adding in modifiers...the shot would miss. You'd only start looking at an attack roll to hit if the throw were doubles.




If the doubles thing doesn't appeal, then we can also make it harder to hit by using some sort of other DM to the attack roll (one that would make it very hard to hit).

Maybe we could base this number on a character stat (DEX?).

We could do something like: give each character a base evasion number. It would be another DM needed to hit that character.

Or, we could use something like a Luck DM.

Whatever is chosed, the result is a DM that makes characters harder to hit.

This way, damage is REAL DAMAGE. It hurts. If your character gets shot, he'll be as incapciated from the wound as a real person would be in the real world.

The difference would be that we'd cut down on the likelyhood of the character getting hit.


Thoughts about this?

 

[mike wightman]

It's not reality though. People do survive being shot several times, there are quite a few cases of not even realising they've been shot.

Someone shot through the heart can have a good ten seconds to keep shooting back at you.

I think what is needed to realistically model damage is a greater range for the damage dice and either a degree of success rule or a hit location roll - the latter requires you come up with a hit location chart for each alien and animal too

I agree that the chance to hit should probably change - check out the statistics for police accuracy during shoot outs...

 

[mike wightman]

It's not reality though. People do survive being shot several times, there are quite a few cases of not even realising they've been shot.

Someone shot through the heart can have a good ten seconds to keep shooting back at you.

I think what is needed to realistically model damage is a greater range for the damage dice and either a degree of success rule or a hit location roll - the latter requires you come up with a hit location chart for each alien and animal too

I agree that the chance to hit should probably change - check out the statistics for police accuracy during shoot outs...

 

[flykiller]

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">TO HIT

By task system.

HIT LOCATION

2d6 LOCATION
----------------------
2 hand
3 lower arm
4 upper arm
5 head/neck
6 shoulder height
7 upper torso
8 lower torso
9 hip height
10 upper leg
11 lower leg
12 foot

Use and additional d6 to generate odd/even to determine left/right.

Implementing this allows the use of cover. If part of the body is
hit that is under cover then the hit has no effect. It also allows
the use of aspect. A prone person showing only his head, shoulders,
arms and hands must be hit in those locations or the hit has no
effect.

Weapon skill supplies a modifier. The shooter may add or subtract
his (weapon skill level-1) or less to adjust the final location roll
as he wishes.

DAMAGE

Weapon Local Damage Blood Loss

small pistol d6 d6
large pistol 2d6-1 2d6-1
small rifle 2d6-1 2d6-1
large rifle 3d6-2 3d6-2
shotgun 3d6-2 3d6-2
laser 4d6-3 0
plasma rifle 5d6-4 0
fusion rifle 6d6-5 0

Hit points are assumed to be the Endurance stat, with seven being
the average and most characters in the range of eight to ten. Each
body part on the Hit Location Chart is assumed to have hit points
equal to the Endurance stat. Blood hit points are a single number,
the Endurance stat, and are affected by any hit to the body anywhere.

Local Damage is rolled immediately and takes effect immediately.
When a body part location has taken Local Damage equal to its hit
points it is incapacitated and no longer functional. When it has
taken Local Damage equal to double to its hit points it is destroyed.

Blood Loss is rolled and then applied the succeeding turn after the
hit takes place, one hit point per turn until the total is reached or
someone takes action to stop the bleeding. A human that drops to
zero on Blood Loss becomes incapacitated, and if he drops to negative
Endurance or lower on Blood Loss he dies.

Location of the hit supplies modifiers. Hits to Head/Neck, Shoulder
Height, and Upper Torso do double Local Damage and Blood Loss. Hits
to Hand, Lower Arm, Lower Leg, and Foot do one-half Blood Loss.</pre>[/QUOTE]or a different approach to damage

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">DAMAGE

Damage has two portions, immediate damage and bleeding/shock. Both
are rolled for, and the damage points for both are applied to a
character's endurance characteristic.

IMMEDIATE DAMAGE is rolled once, using all applicable modifiers, and
is applied immediately. The meaning of the descriptors is left to the
referee. A critical hit in the hand is not the same as a critical hit
in the neck, but both may have a great effect on the character's
performance.

BLEEDING/SHOCK is rolled immediately, using all applicable modifiers
except those of time and treatment, and is applied at once.
BLEEDING/SHOCK then continues each following round, with all
applicable previous modifiers plus all applicable time and treatment
modifiers. Each modified roll except the first cannot result in
bleeding greater than that which ocurred in the previous round. If
greater bleeding is indicated, use the previous lesser value.
BLEEDING/SHOCK continues until a modfied result of 2- is obtained, at
which point it stops progressing.

Characters who are reduced to zero endurance points become
incapacitated. Characters which are reduced to the negative value of
their endurance are dead.

This system does not require a to-hit method, though modifiers for
such are included. Also, the referee may choose to ignore damage
points and run strictly with the verbal descriptions of the injuries,
and also to adjust the descriptors and modifiers as he sees fit.


IMMEDIATE DAMAGE BLEEDING/SHOCK

DIE ROLL DAMAGE POINTS DIE ROLL DAMAGE POINTS
------------------------------------------------------------
12+ critical 8 12+ massive 4
11 serious 4 11 serious 3
10 serious 4 10 moderate 2
9 serious 4 9 moderate 2
8 moderate 2 8 light 1
7 moderate 2 7 light 1
6 moderate 2 6 light 1
5 light 1 5 light 1
4 light 1 4 light 1
3 light 1 3 light 1
2- light 1 2- zero 0


DIE ROLL MODIFIERS
IMMEDIATE DAMAGE BLEEDING/SHOCK
MODIFIER TYPE MODIFIERS MODIFIERS
-----------------------------------------------------
AMMUNITION TYPE
.22 -2 -2
9mm -1 -1
shrapnel -1 -1
edged weapon -1 +1
.357 0 0
shotgun +1 +1
.50 +1 +1
larger +2 +2
energy weapon +2 0

HIT LOCATION
critical area +1 +1
extremity -1 -1

TIME AND TREATMENT MODIFIERS
per round passed -1
PC continues actions +2
PC halts actions, treats self -2
third party assists -1
each level of medical skill -1


DESIGN INTENT
The results of injuries often vary greatly. In any single assault a
man may die immediately, or slowly bleed to death, or may continue on
with only light wounds. Serious damage may not incapacitate, while a
seemingly minor wound may prove fatal over time. This system attempts
to span this wide range of possibilities using only 2d6 and CT stats.</pre>[/QUOTE]

 

[flykiller]

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">TO HIT

By task system.

HIT LOCATION

2d6 LOCATION
----------------------
2 hand
3 lower arm
4 upper arm
5 head/neck
6 shoulder height
7 upper torso
8 lower torso
9 hip height
10 upper leg
11 lower leg
12 foot

Use and additional d6 to generate odd/even to determine left/right.

Implementing this allows the use of cover. If part of the body is
hit that is under cover then the hit has no effect. It also allows
the use of aspect. A prone person showing only his head, shoulders,
arms and hands must be hit in those locations or the hit has no
effect.

Weapon skill supplies a modifier. The shooter may add or subtract
his (weapon skill level-1) or less to adjust the final location roll
as he wishes.

DAMAGE

Weapon Local Damage Blood Loss

small pistol d6 d6
large pistol 2d6-1 2d6-1
small rifle 2d6-1 2d6-1
large rifle 3d6-2 3d6-2
shotgun 3d6-2 3d6-2
laser 4d6-3 0
plasma rifle 5d6-4 0
fusion rifle 6d6-5 0

Hit points are assumed to be the Endurance stat, with seven being
the average and most characters in the range of eight to ten. Each
body part on the Hit Location Chart is assumed to have hit points
equal to the Endurance stat. Blood hit points are a single number,
the Endurance stat, and are affected by any hit to the body anywhere.

Local Damage is rolled immediately and takes effect immediately.
When a body part location has taken Local Damage equal to its hit
points it is incapacitated and no longer functional. When it has
taken Local Damage equal to double to its hit points it is destroyed.

Blood Loss is rolled and then applied the succeeding turn after the
hit takes place, one hit point per turn until the total is reached or
someone takes action to stop the bleeding. A human that drops to
zero on Blood Loss becomes incapacitated, and if he drops to negative
Endurance or lower on Blood Loss he dies.

Location of the hit supplies modifiers. Hits to Head/Neck, Shoulder
Height, and Upper Torso do double Local Damage and Blood Loss. Hits
to Hand, Lower Arm, Lower Leg, and Foot do one-half Blood Loss.</pre>[/QUOTE]or a different approach to damage

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">DAMAGE

Damage has two portions, immediate damage and bleeding/shock. Both
are rolled for, and the damage points for both are applied to a
character's endurance characteristic.

IMMEDIATE DAMAGE is rolled once, using all applicable modifiers, and
is applied immediately. The meaning of the descriptors is left to the
referee. A critical hit in the hand is not the same as a critical hit
in the neck, but both may have a great effect on the character's
performance.

BLEEDING/SHOCK is rolled immediately, using all applicable modifiers
except those of time and treatment, and is applied at once.
BLEEDING/SHOCK then continues each following round, with all
applicable previous modifiers plus all applicable time and treatment
modifiers. Each modified roll except the first cannot result in
bleeding greater than that which ocurred in the previous round. If
greater bleeding is indicated, use the previous lesser value.
BLEEDING/SHOCK continues until a modfied result of 2- is obtained, at
which point it stops progressing.

Characters who are reduced to zero endurance points become
incapacitated. Characters which are reduced to the negative value of
their endurance are dead.

This system does not require a to-hit method, though modifiers for
such are included. Also, the referee may choose to ignore damage
points and run strictly with the verbal descriptions of the injuries,
and also to adjust the descriptors and modifiers as he sees fit.


IMMEDIATE DAMAGE BLEEDING/SHOCK

DIE ROLL DAMAGE POINTS DIE ROLL DAMAGE POINTS
------------------------------------------------------------
12+ critical 8 12+ massive 4
11 serious 4 11 serious 3
10 serious 4 10 moderate 2
9 serious 4 9 moderate 2
8 moderate 2 8 light 1
7 moderate 2 7 light 1
6 moderate 2 6 light 1
5 light 1 5 light 1
4 light 1 4 light 1
3 light 1 3 light 1
2- light 1 2- zero 0


DIE ROLL MODIFIERS
IMMEDIATE DAMAGE BLEEDING/SHOCK
MODIFIER TYPE MODIFIERS MODIFIERS
-----------------------------------------------------
AMMUNITION TYPE
.22 -2 -2
9mm -1 -1
shrapnel -1 -1
edged weapon -1 +1
.357 0 0
shotgun +1 +1
.50 +1 +1
larger +2 +2
energy weapon +2 0

HIT LOCATION
critical area +1 +1
extremity -1 -1

TIME AND TREATMENT MODIFIERS
per round passed -1
PC continues actions +2
PC halts actions, treats self -2
third party assists -1
each level of medical skill -1


DESIGN INTENT
The results of injuries often vary greatly. In any single assault a
man may die immediately, or slowly bleed to death, or may continue on
with only light wounds. Serious damage may not incapacitate, while a
seemingly minor wound may prove fatal over time. This system attempts
to span this wide range of possibilities using only 2d6 and CT stats.</pre>[/QUOTE]

 

[Valarian]

Originally posted by Aramis:
Of course, one particular fencing injury, repeated small hits, none as bad as the worst single hit, resulted in a cracked rib, 6" tall 2" wide bruise (sub-Q bleed), and several weeks of impairment.

Who the hell do you fence against?
Are you using Point de Diable? Live blades?
I've been fencing for years and not suffered anything more than a few grazes and minor bruising.

 

[Valarian]

Originally posted by Aramis:
Of course, one particular fencing injury, repeated small hits, none as bad as the worst single hit, resulted in a cracked rib, 6" tall 2" wide bruise (sub-Q bleed), and several weeks of impairment.

Who the hell do you fence against?
Are you using Point de Diable? Live blades?
I've been fencing for years and not suffered anything more than a few grazes and minor bruising.

 

[atpollard]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
It's not reality though. People do survive being shot several times, there are quite a few cases of not even realising they've been shot.

Someone shot through the heart can have a good ten seconds to keep shooting back at you.

I think what is needed to realistically model damage is a greater range for the damage dice and either a degree of success rule or a hit location roll - the latter requires you come up with a hit location chart for each alien and animal too

I agree that the chance to hit should probably change - check out the statistics for police accuracy during shoot outs...

10 seconds is not very long. Just apply all damage at the end of the combat round and a "dead man" can still get in that one last shot.

Do you realize how infrequently anyone will hit by rolling doubles? A marksman with an easy shot (roll 8+) might hit on 4-4, 5-5, or 6-6 for a 1 in 12 chance of hitting. A hard shot could be as high as only 1 in 36 shots hitting. With this system you could abandon the damage rolls and just streamline it to a roll of 6-6 kills (or incapacitates) the target, everything else is either a miss or just a scratch.

It might be realistic, but is it fun?

 

[atpollard]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
It's not reality though. People do survive being shot several times, there are quite a few cases of not even realising they've been shot.

Someone shot through the heart can have a good ten seconds to keep shooting back at you.

I think what is needed to realistically model damage is a greater range for the damage dice and either a degree of success rule or a hit location roll - the latter requires you come up with a hit location chart for each alien and animal too

I agree that the chance to hit should probably change - check out the statistics for police accuracy during shoot outs...

10 seconds is not very long. Just apply all damage at the end of the combat round and a "dead man" can still get in that one last shot.

Do you realize how infrequently anyone will hit by rolling doubles? A marksman with an easy shot (roll 8+) might hit on 4-4, 5-5, or 6-6 for a 1 in 12 chance of hitting. A hard shot could be as high as only 1 in 36 shots hitting. With this system you could abandon the damage rolls and just streamline it to a roll of 6-6 kills (or incapacitates) the target, everything else is either a miss or just a scratch.

It might be realistic, but is it fun?

 

[atpollard]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
An AutoPistol or an AutoRifle does 3D damage.
Either of these weapons, hitting an average character with physical stats 777, only has a 16% chance of seriously wounding the target (rolling 14+ on 3D).
What that means is: 84% of the time, an AutoPistol or an AutoRifle will only inflict a Minor Wound on an average target (777).
So...does it seem that damage should be considered trauma given this?
If I pull out a .45 automatic pistol and shoot you with it, should you have an 84% chance of being completely healed, with no medical help, within 3 days?

Is it plausible to assume that 84% of the hits from a .45 automatic pistol would result in a grazing wound (possibly requiring stitches), a non vital puncture (through the leg, but not hitting arteries, veins or bone), or bruising through cloth armor. These are all minor wounds that do not require a trauma surgeon to survive, and the character is back on his feet in 3 days – over the counter drugs to speed minor healing and a standard first aid kit with antiseptic ointments and butterfly bandages can safely be assumed for a star faring culture.

The 16% chance of seriously wounding the target represents a shot to the chest, a broken bone, or a hit to an artery. That requires immediate trauma treatment from a trained professional plus a more serious recovery.

Do those chances sound that unreasonable?

[PS. Although I prefer simple rule systems and would probably lean towards removing clutter from the official rules rather that adding more “realistic” rules, I applaud your effort to think outside of the box. Keep on challenging every area of the rules – it can only make the game better.]

 

[atpollard]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
An AutoPistol or an AutoRifle does 3D damage.
Either of these weapons, hitting an average character with physical stats 777, only has a 16% chance of seriously wounding the target (rolling 14+ on 3D).
What that means is: 84% of the time, an AutoPistol or an AutoRifle will only inflict a Minor Wound on an average target (777).
So...does it seem that damage should be considered trauma given this?
If I pull out a .45 automatic pistol and shoot you with it, should you have an 84% chance of being completely healed, with no medical help, within 3 days?

Is it plausible to assume that 84% of the hits from a .45 automatic pistol would result in a grazing wound (possibly requiring stitches), a non vital puncture (through the leg, but not hitting arteries, veins or bone), or bruising through cloth armor. These are all minor wounds that do not require a trauma surgeon to survive, and the character is back on his feet in 3 days – over the counter drugs to speed minor healing and a standard first aid kit with antiseptic ointments and butterfly bandages can safely be assumed for a star faring culture.

The 16% chance of seriously wounding the target represents a shot to the chest, a broken bone, or a hit to an artery. That requires immediate trauma treatment from a trained professional plus a more serious recovery.

Do those chances sound that unreasonable?

[PS. Although I prefer simple rule systems and would probably lean towards removing clutter from the official rules rather that adding more “realistic” rules, I applaud your effort to think outside of the box. Keep on challenging every area of the rules – it can only make the game better.]

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by atpollard:
Do those chances sound that unreasonable?

Depends on your perspective. From a realist point of view, sure, they don't sound reasonable.

Under vanilla CT, I could, stand just a meter away from you, fire my .45 automatic pistol, and hit you...and have an 84% chance of wounding you so badly that a nurse could fix you up, good as new, in half an hour.

Yep, that's unreasonable if you're a realist looking for a "realistic" game.

On the other hand, if you're a gamer, that might not be that unreasonable at all...it's something you "give" in order to make the game playable. Characters stay alive. Everybody's happy.

It just depends on your point of view and how much "realism" you want in your game.

D&D hit points don't make a lot of sense in the real world either--but the system is fun if you want to be that super-hero fantasy character able to tackle hordes of goblins and orcs with your left hand.

[PS. Although I prefer simple rule systems and would probably lean towards removing clutter from the official rules rather that adding more “realistic” rules, I applaud your effort to think outside of the box. Keep on challenging every area of the rules – it can only make the game better.]

You understand that this thread is just meant as a "thinkbox" for those interested in participating to put their heads together and ponder "what if", right?

We're just brainstorming here. Talking out loud. Nobody's positing any real change to the rules here...we're just discussing possible ways to "fix" some perceived failings of CT.

Maybe something really neat will come out of the discussion.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by atpollard:
Do those chances sound that unreasonable?

Depends on your perspective. From a realist point of view, sure, they don't sound reasonable.

Under vanilla CT, I could, stand just a meter away from you, fire my .45 automatic pistol, and hit you...and have an 84% chance of wounding you so badly that a nurse could fix you up, good as new, in half an hour.

Yep, that's unreasonable if you're a realist looking for a "realistic" game.

On the other hand, if you're a gamer, that might not be that unreasonable at all...it's something you "give" in order to make the game playable. Characters stay alive. Everybody's happy.

It just depends on your point of view and how much "realism" you want in your game.

D&D hit points don't make a lot of sense in the real world either--but the system is fun if you want to be that super-hero fantasy character able to tackle hordes of goblins and orcs with your left hand.

[PS. Although I prefer simple rule systems and would probably lean towards removing clutter from the official rules rather that adding more “realistic” rules, I applaud your effort to think outside of the box. Keep on challenging every area of the rules – it can only make the game better.]

You understand that this thread is just meant as a "thinkbox" for those interested in participating to put their heads together and ponder "what if", right?

We're just brainstorming here. Talking out loud. Nobody's positing any real change to the rules here...we're just discussing possible ways to "fix" some perceived failings of CT.

Maybe something really neat will come out of the discussion.

 

[mike wightman]

And I ask again, have you ever seen the news video of the disgruntled client shooting at his lawyer outside of the courthouse?
He missed with every shot at a range of less than six feet.
Mind you, the lawyer was evading

 

[mike wightman]

And I ask again, have you ever seen the news video of the disgruntled client shooting at his lawyer outside of the courthouse?
He missed with every shot at a range of less than six feet.
Mind you, the lawyer was evading