More Damage Thoughts
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Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
But Sig...you're confusing the attack roll with the damage roll.Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
And I ask again, have you ever seen the news video of the disgruntled client shooting at his lawyer outside of the courthouse?
He missed with every shot at a range of less than six feet.
Mind you, the lawyer was evading
We're not talking about how hard it is to hit someone, or whether that's realistic. We're speaking about what happens to a person once he is shot.
My example above was: If I stood just a meter in front of you with a .45 automatic pistol, fired it, and hit. The "hit" part is assumed.
If I do hit, there's an 84% chance (using vanilla CT) that you'll be A-OK, good as new, in half an hour once a nurse looks at you.
That's the part we're discussing here: Get shot with a .45 autopistol....able to be good as new in 30 minutes...not realistic.
Therefore, all damage in CT isn't trauma (meaning, eventhough the dice showed I hit in the above exampe, we can assume, for reality's sake, that I missed, and the damage applied to you was "fatigue" damage)...
...or, we can play around with the idea that all damage in CT IS trauma, and use some sort of DM to make it real hard to hit (in order to keep PCs alive). The DM could be a mechanic, like the doubles idea on the attack throw, or it could be a DM like a base evasion modifier for every character or a base luck modifier.
In any case, we're trying to explain how, when a character in CT is shot by a .45 automatic, MOST of the time the character is fully healed, as if he hadn't been shot, in just 30 minutes.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
But Sig...you're confusing the attack roll with the damage roll.Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
And I ask again, have you ever seen the news video of the disgruntled client shooting at his lawyer outside of the courthouse?
He missed with every shot at a range of less than six feet.
Mind you, the lawyer was evading
We're not talking about how hard it is to hit someone, or whether that's realistic. We're speaking about what happens to a person once he is shot.
My example above was: If I stood just a meter in front of you with a .45 automatic pistol, fired it, and hit. The "hit" part is assumed.
If I do hit, there's an 84% chance (using vanilla CT) that you'll be A-OK, good as new, in half an hour once a nurse looks at you.
That's the part we're discussing here: Get shot with a .45 autopistol....able to be good as new in 30 minutes...not realistic.
Therefore, all damage in CT isn't trauma (meaning, eventhough the dice showed I hit in the above exampe, we can assume, for reality's sake, that I missed, and the damage applied to you was "fatigue" damage)...
...or, we can play around with the idea that all damage in CT IS trauma, and use some sort of DM to make it real hard to hit (in order to keep PCs alive). The DM could be a mechanic, like the doubles idea on the attack throw, or it could be a DM like a base evasion modifier for every character or a base luck modifier.
In any case, we're trying to explain how, when a character in CT is shot by a .45 automatic, MOST of the time the character is fully healed, as if he hadn't been shot, in just 30 minutes.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
BTW, we've got a guy who comes on Tuesdays, down at the office, to shine shoes. His name is Mike.
A few months ago, Mike's son was car jacked. He was shot four times. It was touch-n-go there for a bit, but today, something like 4+ months later, Mike's son is going to be completely OK. Completely healed with no ill effects.
Shot 4 times and no long-term effects. Very lucky dude.
Then, compare this to this cop I knew that lived down the street from me when I was growing up. He kicked open the door on a police raid of a crack house, both hands on his shotgun. The whacked-out-of-his-mind junky on the other side of the door fired a few shots through the door as it was being kicked in.
When this policeman I knew (his name was Ronnie) went through the threshold, a single bullet caught him on his left hand, right where he gripped the shotgun's pump action, taking off his second and third finger. The bullet ran down the length of the shotgun, entering Ronnie's right arm just below his right hand wrist.
The bullet then traveled down the length of Ronnie's arm, internally, before exiting just above his right elbow.
I knew Ronnie when I was in junior high school, and I had wondered how he lost those fingers and why his right arm didn't work so good (permanent DEX injury). He and my parents got to be good friends, and I learned the story that I related to you above.
My point being: In either case (the dude shot 4 times and competely healed, and Ronnie, shot once, with a permanent injury), neither of them was good as new, with "full hit points" inside of 30 minutes once a nurse with medic-1 check 'em out.
And, I doubt that 84% of gunshot victims in real life are up and about, as if they handn't been shot, in 30 minutes....even if the wound sustained is just a flesh wound.
A few months ago, Mike's son was car jacked. He was shot four times. It was touch-n-go there for a bit, but today, something like 4+ months later, Mike's son is going to be completely OK. Completely healed with no ill effects.
Shot 4 times and no long-term effects. Very lucky dude.
Then, compare this to this cop I knew that lived down the street from me when I was growing up. He kicked open the door on a police raid of a crack house, both hands on his shotgun. The whacked-out-of-his-mind junky on the other side of the door fired a few shots through the door as it was being kicked in.
When this policeman I knew (his name was Ronnie) went through the threshold, a single bullet caught him on his left hand, right where he gripped the shotgun's pump action, taking off his second and third finger. The bullet ran down the length of the shotgun, entering Ronnie's right arm just below his right hand wrist.
The bullet then traveled down the length of Ronnie's arm, internally, before exiting just above his right elbow.
I knew Ronnie when I was in junior high school, and I had wondered how he lost those fingers and why his right arm didn't work so good (permanent DEX injury). He and my parents got to be good friends, and I learned the story that I related to you above.
My point being: In either case (the dude shot 4 times and competely healed, and Ronnie, shot once, with a permanent injury), neither of them was good as new, with "full hit points" inside of 30 minutes once a nurse with medic-1 check 'em out.
And, I doubt that 84% of gunshot victims in real life are up and about, as if they handn't been shot, in 30 minutes....even if the wound sustained is just a flesh wound.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
BTW, we've got a guy who comes on Tuesdays, down at the office, to shine shoes. His name is Mike.
A few months ago, Mike's son was car jacked. He was shot four times. It was touch-n-go there for a bit, but today, something like 4+ months later, Mike's son is going to be completely OK. Completely healed with no ill effects.
Shot 4 times and no long-term effects. Very lucky dude.
Then, compare this to this cop I knew that lived down the street from me when I was growing up. He kicked open the door on a police raid of a crack house, both hands on his shotgun. The whacked-out-of-his-mind junky on the other side of the door fired a few shots through the door as it was being kicked in.
When this policeman I knew (his name was Ronnie) went through the threshold, a single bullet caught him on his left hand, right where he gripped the shotgun's pump action, taking off his second and third finger. The bullet ran down the length of the shotgun, entering Ronnie's right arm just below his right hand wrist.
The bullet then traveled down the length of Ronnie's arm, internally, before exiting just above his right elbow.
I knew Ronnie when I was in junior high school, and I had wondered how he lost those fingers and why his right arm didn't work so good (permanent DEX injury). He and my parents got to be good friends, and I learned the story that I related to you above.
My point being: In either case (the dude shot 4 times and competely healed, and Ronnie, shot once, with a permanent injury), neither of them was good as new, with "full hit points" inside of 30 minutes once a nurse with medic-1 check 'em out.
And, I doubt that 84% of gunshot victims in real life are up and about, as if they handn't been shot, in 30 minutes....even if the wound sustained is just a flesh wound.
A few months ago, Mike's son was car jacked. He was shot four times. It was touch-n-go there for a bit, but today, something like 4+ months later, Mike's son is going to be completely OK. Completely healed with no ill effects.
Shot 4 times and no long-term effects. Very lucky dude.
Then, compare this to this cop I knew that lived down the street from me when I was growing up. He kicked open the door on a police raid of a crack house, both hands on his shotgun. The whacked-out-of-his-mind junky on the other side of the door fired a few shots through the door as it was being kicked in.
When this policeman I knew (his name was Ronnie) went through the threshold, a single bullet caught him on his left hand, right where he gripped the shotgun's pump action, taking off his second and third finger. The bullet ran down the length of the shotgun, entering Ronnie's right arm just below his right hand wrist.
The bullet then traveled down the length of Ronnie's arm, internally, before exiting just above his right elbow.
I knew Ronnie when I was in junior high school, and I had wondered how he lost those fingers and why his right arm didn't work so good (permanent DEX injury). He and my parents got to be good friends, and I learned the story that I related to you above.
My point being: In either case (the dude shot 4 times and competely healed, and Ronnie, shot once, with a permanent injury), neither of them was good as new, with "full hit points" inside of 30 minutes once a nurse with medic-1 check 'em out.
And, I doubt that 84% of gunshot victims in real life are up and about, as if they handn't been shot, in 30 minutes....even if the wound sustained is just a flesh wound.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Which is why the damge spread needs to be adjusted somehow.
A .45 through the heart or major artery will be a mortal wound, a hit to the brain is likely to be fatal.
A hit to muscle tissue or bone is going to cause a range of damage but is unlikely to be mortal, and then there are grazing shots.
Perhaps hit location rolls and exceptional success (or degree of success) are the only way to model this quickly and accurately.
The only trouble with hit location tables is coming up with one for every alien, animal, and possibly even plant
A .45 through the heart or major artery will be a mortal wound, a hit to the brain is likely to be fatal.
A hit to muscle tissue or bone is going to cause a range of damage but is unlikely to be mortal, and then there are grazing shots.
Perhaps hit location rolls and exceptional success (or degree of success) are the only way to model this quickly and accurately.
The only trouble with hit location tables is coming up with one for every alien, animal, and possibly even plant
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Which is why the damge spread needs to be adjusted somehow.
A .45 through the heart or major artery will be a mortal wound, a hit to the brain is likely to be fatal.
A hit to muscle tissue or bone is going to cause a range of damage but is unlikely to be mortal, and then there are grazing shots.
Perhaps hit location rolls and exceptional success (or degree of success) are the only way to model this quickly and accurately.
The only trouble with hit location tables is coming up with one for every alien, animal, and possibly even plant
A .45 through the heart or major artery will be a mortal wound, a hit to the brain is likely to be fatal.
A hit to muscle tissue or bone is going to cause a range of damage but is unlikely to be mortal, and then there are grazing shots.
Perhaps hit location rolls and exceptional success (or degree of success) are the only way to model this quickly and accurately.
The only trouble with hit location tables is coming up with one for every alien, animal, and possibly even plant
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
We could: Adjust damage, making it more realistic. But, if we do this, we need to balance playability (simple gaming), and we would need to make it harder to hit...otherwise combat would be too dangerous.
Or, we could: Leave damage the way it is, but assume that, when a CT character is "hit", he's not really "shot" unless two stats go to zero. Any other result of no stat at zero or one stat at zero means that the character is winded, taking fatigue damage...whatever, and the "hit" really represents a near miss.
Option #2 here is how I've been doing it in my game. I judge what really happened (whether the character was actually shot) by the damage applied to him. If two stats went to zero, then, yeah, the dude was shot. If the dice showed a hit was obtained, but no stats went to zero--that that wasn't a realy hit. It was a near miss.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
We could: Adjust damage, making it more realistic. But, if we do this, we need to balance playability (simple gaming), and we would need to make it harder to hit...otherwise combat would be too dangerous.
Or, we could: Leave damage the way it is, but assume that, when a CT character is "hit", he's not really "shot" unless two stats go to zero. Any other result of no stat at zero or one stat at zero means that the character is winded, taking fatigue damage...whatever, and the "hit" really represents a near miss.
Option #2 here is how I've been doing it in my game. I judge what really happened (whether the character was actually shot) by the damage applied to him. If two stats went to zero, then, yeah, the dude was shot. If the dice showed a hit was obtained, but no stats went to zero--that that wasn't a realy hit. It was a near miss.
Perhaps that is where the GM must decide what is best for the story ...
I have refrained from killing off PCs only to keep the game and the fun going. Sniper bullets have missed and grenades have been duds just as starships have narrowly missed space debris or bureaucrats have been particularly susceptible to bribes.
I'm not sure why every little detail must be tabulated. Leaving something up to the GM is what makes this game fun.
I have refrained from killing off PCs only to keep the game and the fun going. Sniper bullets have missed and grenades have been duds just as starships have narrowly missed space debris or bureaucrats have been particularly susceptible to bribes.
I'm not sure why every little detail must be tabulated. Leaving something up to the GM is what makes this game fun.
Perhaps that is where the GM must decide what is best for the story ...
I have refrained from killing off PCs only to keep the game and the fun going. Sniper bullets have missed and grenades have been duds just as starships have narrowly missed space debris or bureaucrats have been particularly susceptible to bribes.
I'm not sure why every little detail must be tabulated. Leaving something up to the GM is what makes this game fun.
I have refrained from killing off PCs only to keep the game and the fun going. Sniper bullets have missed and grenades have been duds just as starships have narrowly missed space debris or bureaucrats have been particularly susceptible to bribes.
I'm not sure why every little detail must be tabulated. Leaving something up to the GM is what makes this game fun.
Actually, to focus even sharper, the real issue is probably the 30 minutes. Many gun shot wounds require very little treatment. If the bullet did not shatter a bone, cut a major artery, or damage an internal organ, then typical treatment is:
You remove the bullet if it didn’t already exit.
You control bleeding.
You close the hole.
It heals slowly.
That would represent the healing for a typical muscular shot to the arm or leg, a grazing wound on the skull, or a shoulder or chest wound that hits no major organs (minor chest wounds are rare but they do happen – I saw one on Trauma, Life in the ER). So the real problem is the 30 minute recovery for minor trauma. (I assume that you would not feel better if the character was shot by a 9mm automatic, saw a MEDIC-4 and was good as new in 30 minutes).
I know that there are real life surgeries that use a type of glue to close wounds instead of stitches or staples. Does anyone know of any animal that can heal a cut in 30 minutes? If so than it is plausible that the typical Traveller first aid kit includes an ointment that will bind the soft tissue together and accelerate healing from 3 weeks to 30 minutes (a transgenic rapid healing compound -sp?). If no known animal is capable of such rapid healing, then you are correct that the 30 minute healing is either implausible ‘handwavium’ or not physical trauma.
Actually, to focus even sharper, the real issue is probably the 30 minutes. Many gun shot wounds require very little treatment. If the bullet did not shatter a bone, cut a major artery, or damage an internal organ, then typical treatment is:
You remove the bullet if it didn’t already exit.
You control bleeding.
You close the hole.
It heals slowly.
That would represent the healing for a typical muscular shot to the arm or leg, a grazing wound on the skull, or a shoulder or chest wound that hits no major organs (minor chest wounds are rare but they do happen – I saw one on Trauma, Life in the ER). So the real problem is the 30 minute recovery for minor trauma. (I assume that you would not feel better if the character was shot by a 9mm automatic, saw a MEDIC-4 and was good as new in 30 minutes).
I know that there are real life surgeries that use a type of glue to close wounds instead of stitches or staples. Does anyone know of any animal that can heal a cut in 30 minutes? If so than it is plausible that the typical Traveller first aid kit includes an ointment that will bind the soft tissue together and accelerate healing from 3 weeks to 30 minutes (a transgenic rapid healing compound -sp?). If no known animal is capable of such rapid healing, then you are correct that the 30 minute healing is either implausible ‘handwavium’ or not physical trauma.
Who the hell do you fence against?
Are you using Point de Diable? Live blades?
I've been fencing for years and not suffered anything more than a few grazes and minor bruising. </font>[/QUOTE]SCA Heavy Rapier. Rebated practical rapier, with fowling blunts on tips. Take a lunge, and you opponent doesn't relax the grip, and voilá, instant bruise, possible broken rib.
Rules under which I fight can be found at westkingdom.org.
Me, I use a Hanwei 36" practical rapier, and a 40" Solingen oval schlaeger,
Who the hell do you fence against?
Are you using Point de Diable? Live blades?
I've been fencing for years and not suffered anything more than a few grazes and minor bruising. </font>[/QUOTE]SCA Heavy Rapier. Rebated practical rapier, with fowling blunts on tips. Take a lunge, and you opponent doesn't relax the grip, and voilá, instant bruise, possible broken rib.
Rules under which I fight can be found at westkingdom.org.
Me, I use a Hanwei 36" practical rapier, and a 40" Solingen oval schlaeger,
From Wikipedia (and confirmed from other sources):
So the skin on a salamander will heal over a severed limb in 12 hours and re-grow the limb in about one to three months. It is at least plausible to glue the skin together with a compound that will heal the cut closed. Thirty minutes might be a little too fast, but a few hours is not unreasonable.
From Wikipedia (and confirmed from other sources):
So the skin on a salamander will heal over a severed limb in 12 hours and re-grow the limb in about one to three months. It is at least plausible to glue the skin together with a compound that will heal the cut closed. Thirty minutes might be a little too fast, but a few hours is not unreasonable.
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