Musings on the humble ACR

[nobby-w]

Doesn't Snapshot also have the same inference for the ACR? I can't remember off hand.

I can't remember. My copy of snapshot came to grief about 30 years ago, so it's a bit hazy.

My ACR thoughts; most of the players I ever gamed with preferred SMGs, autorifles, or some energy weapon variant. I always figured the ACR was probably the mainstay weapon for non ship's troops. [ . . . ]

If you're in 'lower tech' regions where the ambient tech level is (say) 10-13 then ACRs could be reasonably expected to be the mainstay of infantry on mid-tech forces. I did a TL12 'verse set as the second imperium was going tits-up, so the ambient tech is strictly TL10-12 (hence my love for mid tech kit), and positioned the ACR as a sort of ubiquitous infantry weapon like the AK. This could also reasonably apply to most outlying regions of the 3I where TL12-15 worlds are in a definite minority.

Higher tech forces could issue gauss rifles and more specialised kit like laser rifles - I also did second-gen TL11 laser weapons for my verse. The laser carbine is about on a par with the TL8-9 Book 1 kit, although a bit lighter and with more power capacity. This could reasonably be an infantry weapon. The laser rifle was envisaged as a heavier sniping weapon (much like the TL13 laser rifle in Striker) and there was a practical laser pistol that sat somewhere between a true handgun and a PDW at a weight of around 2kg.

 

[aramis]

Stats (Striker)
Not sure why, but the BBCode table renderer seems to want to put the CR's in the markup in before the table.

The CR's outside the TD tags go to the top of the table. Remove them from your table code, and the whitespace goes away.

 

[nobby-w]

The big innovations I can see are a thumb-scan lock, coupled to a grip contact safety, allowing the trigger to work. Maybe, just maybe, liquid binary propellant.

Without dipping too far into American gun politics, I can't see biometric locks being standard on anything issued to infantry. What happens if the battery goes flat or you need to pick up your mate's rifle?

Getting the chamber to seal without a case while remaining insensitive to dirt is a problem, and the complexity of the G11 in solving that problem is what sunk it. Binary propellants combine this with a high pressure propellant injection system, which would have the same sensitivity to dirt as the fuel injectors on a diesel engine. This is a major support and maintenance problem on a rifle intended to be used by squaddies in the field.

In practice, I think both caseless ammunition and binary propellants are a solution in search of a problem for small arms. The high ROF on a G11 was an interesting feature but caseless ammunition was a means to an end. Used for its own sake it offers some possibilities for weight and cost saving on ammunition but no compelling features that have tempted anybody to move from cased ammunition technology. Nobody really seems to care and I don't think there's been any serious R&D on it since the 1980s.

Binary propellants offer the possibility of a flatter pressure curve and higher velocity, but I don't think muzzle energy is viewed as a major issue either. This might change if (for example) radical improvements were made in body armour technology, although I think there's plenty of headroom in conventional ammunition tech before folks need to look to anything radically different.

 

[nobby-w]

The CR's outside the TD tags go to the top of the table. Remove them from your table code, and the whitespace goes away.

Is there any possibility of getting that fixed? It's quite an obstruction to making readable table source.

Also, is it possible to control the formatting of the table, for example making the cell borders invisible?

 

[mike wightman]

T:2300 did a much better job of describing the ACR , you should also take a look at T4's Emperor's Arsenal to see the developments in weapons tech.
Note also that MT canonized the ACR/accelerator rifle hybrid that is the Assault Rocket Launcher or ARL.

One of the first homebrew weapons I ever did for CT back in the day was the accelerator pistol from the Deathworld series - armour mods and damage of snub pistol but with the range of a revolver.

 

[nobby-w]

One of the first homebrew weapons I ever did for CT back in the day was the accelerator pistol from the Deathworld series - armour mods and damage of snub pistol but with the range of a revolver.

Funny you should say that. That was one of my first additions as well, and survives in my 'verses to this day because - let's face it - it's much cooler than a snub pistol ...

 

[aramis]

Is there any possibility of getting that fixed? It's quite an obstruction to making readable table source.

Your source doesn't need to remain readable. Just remove the CR's by replacing them with spaces or tabs.
And, while there are ways I could go about fixing it, the board's already got too much accumulated codebase alteration, and I'm not competent at PHP.

Any why does it do that? Specified behavior in HTML 1.0, heritable through to HTML5.0...

Also, is it possible to control the formatting of the table, for example making the cell borders invisible?

I could set up an alternate tag, but it's not worth the while. Seriously, from an administrative point of view, it's just too much of a security leak to allow user control, as it also allows for code injections. And an alternate noborder tag is one more thing to confuse people.

 

[infojunky]

So, proposed version....

TL	Pistol Type	Effective	Long	Extreme	Magazine	Weight	Cost/Ammo Cost
10	9mm ACP	1(3)+2	4(2)+1	10(0)+0	20	1000	400/10

Works by me....
Also It give a basis for a SMG and a none Automatic....

 

[Blue Ghost]

T:2300 did a much better job of describing the ACR , you should also take a look at T4's Emperor's Arsenal to see the developments in weapons tech.
Note also that MT canonized the ACR/accelerator rifle hybrid that is the Assault Rocket Launcher or ARL.

One of the first homebrew weapons I ever did for CT back in the day was the accelerator pistol from the Deathworld series - armour mods and damage of snub pistol but with the range of a revolver.

A few posts up I mentioned that T4 did the same. No doubt T4 borrowed heavily from 2300 (which I've never read nor played).

 

[Kaeto]

ACR

AMG

 

[nobby-w]

A few posts up I mentioned that T4 did the same. No doubt T4 borrowed heavily from 2300 (which I've never read nor played).

I did have 2300 back in the late Jurassic period - the 'verse was about equivalent to TL10 or so, but it didn't have the explicit concept of tech level as such. You could see a definite influence from the second Alien film, and the game had a bit more of a hard sci-fi feel than Traveller.

As I understand, the universe was built by running an empires game with various polities as the players - even New America from Twilight:2000 got a cameo role. They had a couple of interesting ideas for aliens, as well. However, the universe didn't quite gel for me and I never ran more than a couple of sessions of it.

At one point there was an effort to unify the game systems of Traveller, 2300AD and Twilight:2000 but these weren't really a commercial success.

If I was to venture an opinion, I'd say it wasn't really space opera-ish enough. You could play adventurers to a certain extent, but the 'verse was a bit inflexible. I do like settings with a more star wars-ish feel and parties of adventurers living on the margins of society around the frontier.

Starships like the Type S or Free Trader variants let a party rattle around in a sandbox 'verse, and the OTU has enough left up to the imagination that you can throw pretty much anything into the mix. I think the OTU is more of a role playing setting whereas 2300 felt more like a role playing game grafted onto a setting that was primarily focused on geopolitics.

 

[infojunky]

ACR

Honestly that is hard to argue against....

 

[nobby-w]

Honestly that is hard to argue against....

Fun factoid - the props are actually modified thompson submachineguns and the grenade launcher started life out as a shotgun. The styling was influenced by a shotgun called a SPAS-12. Most of the props didn't work but they made one or two working props.

 

[Blue Ghost]

I did have 2300 back in the late Jurassic period - the 'verse was about equivalent to TL10 or so, but it didn't have the explicit concept of tech level as such. You could see a definite influence from the second Alien film, and the game had a bit more of a hard sci-fi feel than Traveller.

As I understand, the universe was built by running an empires game with various polities as the players - even New America from Twilight:2000 got a cameo role. They had a couple of interesting ideas for aliens, as well. However, the universe didn't quite gel for me and I never ran more than a couple of sessions of it.

At one point there was an effort to unify the game systems of Traveller, 2300AD and Twilight:2000 but these weren't really a commercial success.

If I was to venture an opinion, I'd say it wasn't really space opera-ish enough. You could play adventurers to a certain extent, but the 'verse was a bit inflexible. I do like settings with a more star wars-ish feel and parties of adventurers living on the margins of society around the frontier.

Starships like the Type S or Free Trader variants let a party rattle around in a sandbox 'verse, and the OTU has enough left up to the imagination that you can throw pretty much anything into the mix. I think the OTU is more of a role playing setting whereas 2300 felt more like a role playing game grafted onto a setting that was primarily focused on geopolitics.

I always kind of wondered if there was a connection between 2000 and 2300, and I think after a while I assumed there was. I purchased one of the vehicle guides for 2300 because it had some cool monster tanks in the thing, which I thought would make good fodder for a regular Traveller session.

I can't recall if I ever bought the equipment book for the ACRish weapons in it ... thought I might have and lost it somewhere ... I just can't recall. But it did seem to me that 2300 was as you say "harder scifi" as opposed to Traveller's space opera setting.

I never got into it because I was already investing money into something like four different games at the time, not to mention the one offs. But, for the purposes of this thread, I do wish I had just as a tool inspiration, or perhaps to stat for my gaming group at the time.

 

[martletsquire]

Regarding cartridge ammunition vs weird variations such as caseless, or binary or whatever, well, look at it from the procurer's point.

You have a great rifle, firing a 7mm bullet in a cartridge. By standardizing all the pieces parts of the cartridge, you create a standard that is, well, universal. Some Imperial variation of SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute) or Imperial Small Arms Institute or whatever, specifies the following:

Casing: A durable casing, designed to hold bullet, propellant, and ignition source, meeting pressure requirements of (whatever) and (reloadable/not reloadable?) [So, in real life, some TL4 world could produce casings that meet the requirements of a TL10 world using brass/steel, while a TL15 world could produce ceramic/plastic casings, all which meet the specification standards for size, neck thickness, and capable of handling xyz pressure.]

Bullet: A projectile, of PDQ dimensions and shape, of MNO weight, with the following penetration/expansion capabilities.... [TL 4 makes some standard Ball or Full Metal Jacket bullets like you see today, while TL15 produces some weird composite/ceramic/plastic version with self-lubrication, micro-driving bands (those copper/brass bands on artillery shells that engage the rifling) and so forth]

Propellant: Ignitable Propellant that burns at some specific rate that produces a standardized pressure and weighs so much and is stable until ignited [TL4 world produces some nice smokeless powders, TL15 produces a gel that when injected into the casing and after the bullet is seated swells to fill the interior cavity perfectly, thus ensuring even burn with no settling for hundreds of years and capable of being fired after being submerged in liquid or in space for so many days.]

Ignition Source: A metal cap ignition source that when contacted by the striking system of the ACR causes a flare of whatever to ignite the propellant charge of the cartridge. Cap will meet following dimensions (that the cap fits into in the casing) [TL4 produces, well, primers like those on today's cartridges. TL15 produces some weird piezo-electric button that sends a surge of electricity into the propellant section of the casing, and is good for X number of strikes (for reloading?)]

Given the standardized weight and performances, some Depot out there could conceivably get components from a variety of manufacturers at a variety of TL levels and assemble a 'battle cartridge' from all these components. Or, more likely, some TL13 Merc outfit gets hired by some TL4 world and hires TL4 companies to produce equipment that can be used by the Mercs, from uniforms, belts, food, bedding, ammo, etc. (David Drake handled this in some of his "Hammer's Slammers" stories.)

Basically, once you get the cartridge, it is hard to improve on the basic idea. What does change with TL is power of the propellant, strength of materials, ease of manufacturing. Set the TL of the ACR at '10' and then we are at the same situation as if, say, I want to buy ammo for my Krag-Jorgensen rifle from the Spanish-American War (if I had one) or a Martini-Henry in .577. 'Ancient TL3/4 guns, modern TL8 ammo.

 

[Condottiere]

There's a neat trick, where you equip your military with an assault rifle whose bullet is slightly larger than (NATO) standard.

The rifle can fire (NATO) standard, though at the cost of slight inaccuracy, but standard assault rifles can't use the modified ammunition.

 

[Timerover51]

Given the standardized weight and performances, some Depot out there could conceivably get components from a variety of manufacturers at a variety of TL levels and assemble a 'battle cartridge' from all these components. Or, more likely, some TL13 Merc outfit gets hired by some TL4 world and hires TL4 companies to produce equipment that can be used by the Mercs, from uniforms, belts, food, bedding, ammo, etc. (David Drake handled this in some of his "Hammer's Slammers" stories.)Basically, once you get the cartridge, it is hard to improve on the basic idea.

I am not sure at all about trying to use Tech Level 4 ammunition in a Tech Level 13 ACR, because any weapon of that nature that is gas-operated requires a certain amount of gas pressure to operate the mechanism. Tech Level 4 is the cross-over between black powder and nitro-based powders, while Tech Level 13 might be using a specifically design powder for maximum output with minimum volume. There is a very wide range of powders used in current firearms, depending on the weapon, ranging from very fast burning powders for short-barrel handguns to slow burning powders for large-case heavy rifles. If you put a full-charge of automatic pistol cartridge powder into a .50 caliber machine gun case, you are going to blow up the gun.

What does change with TL is power of the propellant, strength of materials, ease of manufacturing. Set the TL of the ACR at '10' and then we are at the same situation as if, say, I want to buy ammo for my Krag-Jorgensen rifle from the Spanish-American War (if I had one) or a Martini-Henry in .577. 'Ancient TL3/4 guns, modern TL8 ammo.

As far as a know, the Krag .30-40 cartridge is still being loaded, but I am not sure about the Martini .577 cartridge, at least here. I would hesitate using anything but black powder in the Martini, as smokeless powder loads are going to need a fair-sized wad to keep the small amount of powder against the primer. The barrel strength of the early Martinis would be very questionable with smokeless powder loads. I am not sure when they transitioned from welded wrought iron barrels to steel barrels.

 

[kilemall]

One recent thought on the Gauss and possibly by extension ACR-

Since these rifles are stabilized against their higher recoil to maintain and/or improve their second/third round accuracy on the aimpoint, perhaps second/third hits should be considered to hit the same place.

For conventional resolution, that means you roll once and all rounds do that same exact damage.

For Striker, same damage level.

For my IMTU hit location, the hit location is the same for all rounds.

RIght now I'm thinking same hit/damage is more a Gauss-only thing to differentiate it's higher tech and ROF from the ACR, but you may want to use it for ACR IYTU.



Another point, the advent of near universal Cloth armor, the answer of Lasers and the resulting counter of Reflec 'armor' plus CES (kind of a jumpsuit Cloth+1) would drive the design of the ACR to provide an affordabe kinetic answer to increasing protection.

Striker definitely shows an arms race between guns and armor that doesn't reach a denouement until the advent of the P/FGMPs.

 

[Condottiere]

Usually you study the game mechanics to figure out the optimal firing solution.

As I recall, I held out for a burst fire of two rounds for ShadowRun, an automatic double tap that didn't incur a recoil penalty.

 

[martletsquire]

Timerover,

There are some smokeless powder replacements for black powder. Notably found in the muzzleloading community with those darned pellet powder guns.

Yes, there would be issues with TL incompatabilities, but if the product meets all the specifications, well, can't hurt to try, can it?

As to the Martini, well, it seems more TL3+, wouldn't quite put it at TL4-, so well, I used a bad example for a TL13 gun, but I do know someone who shoots one, and a Springfield Trapdoor. Cartridges are out there, and some reloading equipment. Using modern black powder (which some varieties burn cleaner with lots less waste (smoke) and fouling than traditional black powder) he even goes hunting with his Martini. For reenactment events, he likes regular smoky black powder, by the way.

Crazy things chemistry can do.

That's why I did the TL4-TL15 spread. If we extrapolate the future from today, there will be some dudes out from a TL15 there who are doing reenacting of the Vilani version of the Anglo-Zulu wars, or maybe the Crimean campaign, and using Vilani versions of the Martini built in their modern times that meet the specifications of the ancient Vilani Martini.

Undoubtedly there are some TL14 Solomani out there doing the Crimean reenactment thing. Maybe with an original Martini or two. I've seen stranger things (English Civil War reenactors using actual English Civil War artifacts during their fun games (and that's a 400-500 year gap between ECW and the reenactors.))

But, yeah, maybe I went too low in my TL example. Maybe TL5?