Noble Militaries
- Thread starter Blue Ghost
- Start date
I disagree. I like to think of the Imperium as having a bit of a feudal tinge to it. I think knights, as in the days of yore on Earth, would be required to raise a certain amount of troop strength, and then bring that to a conflict or potential hot spot. It may have more of a bureaucratic tone in terms of implementing that type of policy, but I think the idea still very much in line with how the Imperium works.
I think some sectors (or rather subsectors) would frown upon knights with armed entourages, or even full scale private armed forces and/or units and/or armies, but the concept of a noble having his own armed force seems to gybe perfectly with the Imperium concept. I think more covetous governments would ask Sir Reginald to keep his "Reggies' Own Huscarles" lightly armed when on the street, or perhaps make them keep their uniforms at home, but Sir Reginald, being Sir Reginald, will insist on keeping his boys under his employ.
I think some sectors (or rather subsectors) would frown upon knights with armed entourages, or even full scale private armed forces and/or units and/or armies, but the concept of a noble having his own armed force seems to gybe perfectly with the Imperium concept. I think more covetous governments would ask Sir Reginald to keep his "Reggies' Own Huscarles" lightly armed when on the street, or perhaps make them keep their uniforms at home, but Sir Reginald, being Sir Reginald, will insist on keeping his boys under his employ.
Rigel Stardin
SOC-13
Look at the Knight Templar as an example on how an order of Knights could become troublesome for the Imperium. Whether or not it was a power/wealth grab by the French King or they had gotten to bold for their iron pants, the case stands as what could happen if such an organization decided to stand against the emperor. Therefore, I suggest they would use caution when it comes to granting such rights to a Knight.
Now it might be possible that once a person is granted Knighthood, he may be expected to serve in the Noble's household guard or be called upon by the Noble to do certain favors for him. During wartime he maybe able to raise his own unit or be given command of a unit. The Problem with raising his own unit, men's loyality would be to the knight and not the Noble or Emperor eventhou they swore an oath to the contrary. A group of disgruntled war veterans with the backing of a Knight would have to be dealt with one way or another.
With the number of people who have been bestowed Knighthood, I would have to think it is an honorary title with little or no real authority...
Now it might be possible that once a person is granted Knighthood, he may be expected to serve in the Noble's household guard or be called upon by the Noble to do certain favors for him. During wartime he maybe able to raise his own unit or be given command of a unit. The Problem with raising his own unit, men's loyality would be to the knight and not the Noble or Emperor eventhou they swore an oath to the contrary. A group of disgruntled war veterans with the backing of a Knight would have to be dealt with one way or another.
With the number of people who have been bestowed Knighthood, I would have to think it is an honorary title with little or no real authority...
Gray Pennell
SOC-12
Though I like the idea of nobles having forces to many knights can spoil the soup so it really depends on the number of knights that will decide things. A low number like one per system than they could have their own. More than that then I would see them being part of the next up noble. The difference between the Knights of the Middle Ages or the Equestrian class of Rome/Greece. You can also make paying for troop up as part of a nobles demand instead of direct troops.
Note that IMTU, only the various world's nobles and other "enofficed" nobles may have huscarles.
So Duke Nobo from Regina, Adm, Ret., has no right nor privilege to huscarles. Duke Norris, however, has (canonical) huscarles; the 4518th LIR. (I think he also has another regiment of Huscarles, too. IMTU, he does.)
Now, IMTU, the Subsector dukes often have imperial permission to have a "court duke" functionary - who is often a non-landed marquis or duke, sometimes the ducal heir, and sometimes a lesser ranked landed noble from in-system. Said Court Dukes also raise a regiment of Huscarles.
But the important thing about huscarles and fiefs: IMTU, they are the permanent units of the Imperial Army. There is no unified Army service - if you served in the Imperial army, you served as a member of a loaned unit from a planetary army, as a member of a unit raised on some enfeoffed nobleman's fief's military, or as a member of a Huscarles unit.
So Duke Nobo from Regina, Adm, Ret., has no right nor privilege to huscarles. Duke Norris, however, has (canonical) huscarles; the 4518th LIR. (I think he also has another regiment of Huscarles, too. IMTU, he does.)
Now, IMTU, the Subsector dukes often have imperial permission to have a "court duke" functionary - who is often a non-landed marquis or duke, sometimes the ducal heir, and sometimes a lesser ranked landed noble from in-system. Said Court Dukes also raise a regiment of Huscarles.
But the important thing about huscarles and fiefs: IMTU, they are the permanent units of the Imperial Army. There is no unified Army service - if you served in the Imperial army, you served as a member of a loaned unit from a planetary army, as a member of a unit raised on some enfeoffed nobleman's fief's military, or as a member of a Huscarles unit.
We are discussing the 3rd Imperium however, not the US, West Germany, Finland, the UK, Denmark, Australia, modern day civilized nation-X.
The 3I has mercenary outfits running within its borders, and a good chunk of the member worlds are left to their own devices. I think the Imperial Army exists, and is stationed on a good number of worlds as one of the hands of the Emperor, but we've also got lots of mercenary tickets going on for those inclined to sign on.
If private mercenary units exist, then would it not make sense that nobles might purchase into an armed force?
The 3I has mercenary outfits running within its borders, and a good chunk of the member worlds are left to their own devices. I think the Imperial Army exists, and is stationed on a good number of worlds as one of the hands of the Emperor, but we've also got lots of mercenary tickets going on for those inclined to sign on.
If private mercenary units exist, then would it not make sense that nobles might purchase into an armed force?
Old_Dr_Skull
SOC-10
And of course, both noble army units and mercenaries make for a better role-playing game with more opportunities for player-level action.
So imagine a scenario where a megacorporation has taken over a world against the population's will with a large mercenary army.
They appeal to an off world noble who has the forces to break that army.
Meanwhile the Imperial Army does nothing because the invasion/occupation was sanctioned by the the moot/Emperor or local authority.
Said noble takes up the cause, musters his forces, invades, and frees up the world in question. All the while the Imperial Army and local general or marshal watch, waiting for orders as to whether they should interfere or not.
It's an interesting dynamic.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
And the noble has just made an enemy of the mega corporation...
Rigel Stardin
SOC-13
Having Private Armies tends to put you on the Radar no matter what sort of government you have. I have seen it on the news, read it in the papers about 3rd world countries and even corporations who have private armies. Politicians fear these "mercenary units" and private armies because they are usually the ones without the weapons. The same is going to apply to the Imperium.
Nobles with large forces are going to be looked at more carefully than those who don't. Unless that noble is sancitioned by the Court to 'own' such a force. Then we are looking at the Emperor being personally involved with the premission.
Your standard Mercenary Ticket is going to be a legal document pertaining to the useage of weapons and equipment akin to a permit to carry a firearm. The only time the Imperium is going to get involved is they are used on a world important to the Imperium or if they are engage Imperium Forces and finally during an investigation into the activities of the unit after war crimes have been committed. Otherwise it is up to the local government to regulate mercenary units.
Remember: History is always written by the Victor.
Blue Ghost commented: "The 3I has mercenary outfits running within its borders, and a good chunk of the member worlds are left to their own devices."
He seems to be suggesting a federation style system where member worlds give up their rights to offworld activities, trade and defense in return for the right to self govern it's population, which would make the Imperial Army a very large force. If the Imperium is based on feudal system, each world would have a lord controling it and the right to raise his own army to defend the Emperor's holdings on said world.
The UWP suggest that the Imperium is federation based on a Feudal style government. Thus making the Nobles responsible for large swaths of stars and maintaining the Imperium interest in them. This opens a whole new can of worms because if the Nobles must maintain these large territories for the Emperor not only would they have large armies but vast intelligence agencies under their direct command in order to watch for discontent among the planets within their sector/quadrant...
Nobles with large forces are going to be looked at more carefully than those who don't. Unless that noble is sancitioned by the Court to 'own' such a force. Then we are looking at the Emperor being personally involved with the premission.
Your standard Mercenary Ticket is going to be a legal document pertaining to the useage of weapons and equipment akin to a permit to carry a firearm. The only time the Imperium is going to get involved is they are used on a world important to the Imperium or if they are engage Imperium Forces and finally during an investigation into the activities of the unit after war crimes have been committed. Otherwise it is up to the local government to regulate mercenary units.
Remember: History is always written by the Victor.
Blue Ghost commented: "The 3I has mercenary outfits running within its borders, and a good chunk of the member worlds are left to their own devices."
He seems to be suggesting a federation style system where member worlds give up their rights to offworld activities, trade and defense in return for the right to self govern it's population, which would make the Imperial Army a very large force. If the Imperium is based on feudal system, each world would have a lord controling it and the right to raise his own army to defend the Emperor's holdings on said world.
The UWP suggest that the Imperium is federation based on a Feudal style government. Thus making the Nobles responsible for large swaths of stars and maintaining the Imperium interest in them. This opens a whole new can of worms because if the Nobles must maintain these large territories for the Emperor not only would they have large armies but vast intelligence agencies under their direct command in order to watch for discontent among the planets within their sector/quadrant...
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Gray Pennell
SOC-12
It doesnt have to be that large there are many worlds with low pops.
The mercenary unit might also be sent to a boarder world to install a pocket govt that then ask for Imps to come in. Smaller worlds may or may not object and use their own force. Picture Central America Banana Wars. Imperium wont doing anything official so its all small scale stuff. Thats what my Marquis Hussars are for. Though they are a good anti pirate unit too.
True, and it could be the noble who's power hungry, and the corporation that comes in to administer egalitarianism at the point of a muzzle and bayonet.
From the available evidence, the Imperium will interfere on behalf of the member world if any offworld group interferes with excessive offworld forces.
Hans
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
You mean apart from all the times it doesn't?
There are countless amber zones, short adventures, merc tickets where off world forces - usually backed by megacorps - are subverting the Imperial recognised government.
The only slight get out in your statement is the use of excessive force - but how do you define that exactly?
If you want to take over a world and are going to use private security contractors or your in house internal security division to do it by force you make sure that force is up to the job, which means overwhelming which could be interpreted as excessive buy the defenders while the Imperium looks the other way.
But then, the Imperial family and local nobles often have shares in the megacorporations so its fairly obvious where their political loyalties will lie.
There are countless amber zones, short adventures, merc tickets where off world forces - usually backed by megacorps - are subverting the Imperial recognised government.
The only slight get out in your statement is the use of excessive force - but how do you define that exactly?
If you want to take over a world and are going to use private security contractors or your in house internal security division to do it by force you make sure that force is up to the job, which means overwhelming which could be interpreted as excessive buy the defenders while the Imperium looks the other way.
But then, the Imperial family and local nobles often have shares in the megacorporations so its fairly obvious where their political loyalties will lie.
The Imperium recognizes a member government until it changes, then it recognizes the next one. What government a member world chooses to have is, after all, an internal affair. Name three adventures, AZs, or merc tickets where the offworld organization is going for an outright takeover. There are numerous tickets where mercenary forces paid by offworld corporations are backing one local faction against the other. And practically every time the excuse for the small size of the forces involved is that the Imperium is preventing the corporation from furnishing more than that.
It's not a slight out, it's a crucial point. See below.
You don't define it exactly. The Imperium (presumably the local duke mostly) decides what is and what isn't too much.
"Excessive extraplanetary influence is even more vague. Historically, the Imperium has tolerated the use of force as an necessary outlet for built-up political and social pressure. In such cases, a short war is deemed preferable to continuing tension, sabotage, political agitation, etc. However, attempts by extraplanetary forces, such as offworld governments or large commercial interests, to seize control of a world's affairs is beyond the "safety valve" rationale.
"Assistance" is tolerated so long as it is deemed appropriate to the level of legitimate interest in the affairs of the world held by the extraplanetary organization. For example, the Imperium has often tolerated the provision by megacorporations of training cadre, arms, equipment, etc., on a limited scale, and even of training fully equipped striker units to local governments. However, when it has appeared that the primary burden for the conduct of the war has been carried by an extraplanetary power, the Imperium has intervened, claiming the power is using the misfortune of a local dispute as a pretext for aggression."
"Assistance" is tolerated so long as it is deemed appropriate to the level of legitimate interest in the affairs of the world held by the extraplanetary organization. For example, the Imperium has often tolerated the provision by megacorporations of training cadre, arms, equipment, etc., on a limited scale, and even of training fully equipped striker units to local governments. However, when it has appeared that the primary burden for the conduct of the war has been carried by an extraplanetary power, the Imperium has intervened, claiming the power is using the misfortune of a local dispute as a pretext for aggression."
[MT:Imperial Encyclopedia, p. 28]
Any situation that would potentially lead to the world being effectively run from offworld would certainly be on the wrong side of the divide.
A local duke could collude with a megacorporation to look the other way, but I expect that this has been proven counterproductive. Presumably the ultimate result when one of the Emperor's hatchet-men arrive armed with an unlimited Imperial Warrant would be that the duke was replaced, the world was restored to local interests, and the megacorporation dleat a severe slap over the fingers.
[Hmm... that stirs a vague idea. As a result of some such shenanigans, a megacorporate subsector subsidiary gets confiscated and turned into a separate company, with all stock (except the Emperor's Share, of course) turned over to local interests. There ought to be some adventure potential there.]
I've seen that logic expressed countless times, but it appears from the preponderance of the available evidence to be in error. The Imperium (which effectively means the Imperial family and the local dukes) do curb the activities of the megacorporations. Regardless of their financial interests in those corporations they appear to have countervailing reasons that override them. Perhaps they feel an even greater interest in keeping the member worlds sweet.
Hans
If some private company got uppity or too big for its britches by taking over some world, say a lightly to moderately populated one, for the purposes of forestation, mining or what have you, and that activity severely interfered with the locals, then the locals would appeal to the Imperium.
If the the local Imperial bureaucrats shrugged at it, and the local baron was in cahoots with whatever company was involved, then the locals might try to raise their own army or appeal to a noble of character.
When all else has failed the noble will take matters into his own hands, and "act on behalf of the Imperium" as his status allows.
If the the local Imperial bureaucrats shrugged at it, and the local baron was in cahoots with whatever company was involved, then the locals might try to raise their own army or appeal to a noble of character.
When all else has failed the noble will take matters into his own hands, and "act on behalf of the Imperium" as his status allows.
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
Oops. Of course, you don't have to be a noble to tick off a megacorp and have it chasing you for ages - well one division of it, anyway. Then, when you righteously off the guy who's after you, and their successor agrees it was a righteous kill, they decide to keep pursuing you anyway because you're obviously a threat..........
Since when are the politicians unarmed? They typically control the force within a polity. What scares them is their opponents are no longer unarmed.
One way is spelled N-U-K-E.
I think that's kind of how Traveller was meant to be implimented, aside from its "genericness". It's own established setting has a mixture of bureaucratic options mixed with elitism and a stratified social structure, with an ironic kind of egalitarianism mixed in.
The mixture of worlds and societies makes (and made) for very complicated relations. How much sway does a noble have over a something like, oh, say, ... Efate's Department of Motor Vehicles? Can Sir John waltz in, underage, then demand from Jane Smith who makes Efate's minimum wage sitting behind the counter, that she issue a driver's license because of his name alone? Possibly, but possibly not.
Can Sir John, at the age of sixteen, command a platoon of men as in the days of yore when teenagers of noble birth led small armies? I guess it would depend on the world and situation. I would think unless said noble showed exceeding competence any military commander worth his salt would dismiss Sir John.
My point here being that, in my opinion at least, there's a huge swath of gray that's been loosely addressed here and there, but never really directly delineated by the rules, and purposefully so because you need to have someone with ego and sway to throw their weight about when push comes to shove. Nobles can be like that.
I think a noble who has a cause to defend or take up, would use what power he had to see things come out to his desired outcome. He may ask that loyal platoon of marines or army soldiers that served under him to follow him to backwater world X, and let his presence be known. Or, he may for a simple lift ... for his brigade of heavily armed dragoons to some frontier outpost :grin:
Not to repeat myself here, but I think this is the magic of this game system where you can create unique scenarios where say a major has to square off with a knight or lesser baron over the command of his company of men. Who has the upper hand? Who has more sway? Who has official clout? I think that's the genius of the ambiguity of nobles, and them potentially having their own armed forces.
No more comments?
Plenty more, just not coming forth because they are entirely NOTU...
