Noble Militaries

[Ishmael]

"Excessive extraplanetary influence is even more vague. Historically, the Imperium has tolerated the use of force as an necessary outlet for built-up political and social pressure. In such cases, a short war is deemed preferable to continuing tension, sabotage, political agitation, etc. However, attempts by extraplanetary forces, such as offworld governments or large commercial interests, to seize control of a world's affairs is beyond the "safety valve" rationale.

"Assistance" is tolerated so long as it is deemed appropriate to the level of legitimate interest in the affairs of the world held by the extraplanetary organization. For example, the Imperium has often tolerated the provision by megacorporations of training cadre, arms, equipment, etc., on a limited scale, and even of training fully equipped striker units to local governments. However, when it has appeared that the primary burden for the conduct of the war has been carried by an extraplanetary power, the Imperium has intervened, claiming the power is using the misfortune of a local dispute as a pretext for aggression."

[MT:Imperial Encyclopedia, p. 28]

I think there is some evidence that this is propaganda and not the way the Imperium actual works.

If it can be assumed that the Imperium's worlds were generated by the standard UWP rules where government type is concerned, then how can the above be true when a shade over 10% of the worlds that can be rolled up have the government type '6', aka "captive governement"? This result is also skewed slightly towards larger populations with pop-6 having the best chance of being captive.
The word "captive" strongly implies a police or military occupation as captives are usually governed by coercion.

If a member world of the Imperium is the occupier, then the above quote is a fallacious bit of propaganda and opens the idea that the Imperium may allow tiny pocket empires as members because the Imperium hasn't stepped in to prevent or reverse "attempts by extraplanetary forces, such as offworld governments or large commercial interests, to seize control of a world's affairs"
If the Imperium itself is the occupier, then that suggests a fair amount of counterinsurgency actions as well as making the idea of autonomous rule for member worlds more of an illusion; do as we say, or the armed forces drop by until you decide to see reason. Is it possible that ~10% of the worlds and a slightly higher percent of the population are members of the Imperium against their will and are forced to join (wars of pacification)?

Naturally, Imperial Nobles act to oversee the worlds under their 'control' and to keep them under control using the armed forces at their disposal, when necessary, to ensure this happens.

I feel that Mike Wightman is absolutely correct.

But then, the Imperial family and local nobles often have shares in the megacorporations so its fairly obvious where their political loyalties will lie.

Keep in mind that megacorps will do their utmost to keep their stockholders happy and given that the Emperor is a major stockholder in most/nearly all megacorps, and the Imperial Family hold still more power in megacorps' boardroom, and that the Imperium is unabashedly imperialistic, it should be a no-brainer that Imperial policy heavily favors megacorps over member worlds.
The Imperium's goal to "protect interstellar trade, to encourage travel and commerce" favors the megacorps in that the megacorps, who exist to make money off of "interstellar trade and travel and commerce" and control the greatest majority (nearly 100%) of the market benefit directly as a result of this policy.
Expanding these markets was the primary purpose of the Pacification Campaigns which allowed the Sylean Federation to grow into the Third Imperium.

If the various 'captive' worlds are occupied by Imperial Forces in the form of counterinsurgency or police action deployments, then perhaps those Pacification Campaigns are on-going as governments and public opinions shift on member worlds.

 

[rancke]

I think there is some evidence that this is propaganda and not the way the Imperium actual works.

That's certainly possible, since an encyclopedia is viewpoint writing, but I don't see the evidence.

If it can be assumed that the Imperium's worlds were generated by the standard UWP rules where government type is concerned...

That seems to be the case where the sectors for which UWPs have been provided are concerned (A bit of a puzzler, actually, since it would appear that the presence or absence of the Imperium has absolutely no effect on the distribution of government types ).

I'm almost certain that one of the later books (or a JTAS article?) introduced the military junta as another government form that could result in a type 6 classification.

...then how can the above be true when a shade over 10% of the worlds that can be rolled up have the government type '6', aka "captive governement"? This result is also skewed slightly towards larger populations with pop-6 having the best chance of being captive.

There are peaceful ways to acquire ownership of neighboring worlds. Colonizing them when they are empty leaps to mind.

The word "captive" strongly implies a police or military occupation as captives are usually governed by coercion.

Captive government means "government by a leadership answerable to an outside group; a colony or conquered area." [TTB:85] I find it a lot stranger that so many low-population worlds aren't captive governments...

If a member world of the Imperium is the occupier, then the above quote is a fallacious bit of propaganda and opens the idea that the Imperium may allow tiny pocket empires as members because the Imperium hasn't stepped in to prevent or reverse "attempts by extraplanetary forces, such as offworld governments or large commercial interests, to seize control of a world's affairs".

No contradiction there if the worlds that control others acquired that control by means other than outright conquest.

Pocket empires that joined en bloc seems an excellent explanation for some of those ownerships.

If the Imperium itself is the occupier, then that suggests a fair amount of counterinsurgency actions as well as making the idea of autonomous rule for member worlds more of an illusion; do as we say, or the armed forces drop by until you decide to see reason.

That seems to me to go without saying. The Imperium would require its member worlds to toe the line (although it would be more tolerant of high-population worlds than mid and low population worlds).

Is it possible that ~10% of the worlds and a slightly higher percent of the population are members of the Imperium against their will and are forced to join (wars of pacification)?

I'm sure that practically every world in the Imperium has a political faction that champions leaving the Imperium, but I think that worlds where such factions are of concern to the Imperium must be a lot rarer. There are some canonical examples, though.

Naturally, Imperial Nobles act to oversee the worlds under their 'control' and to keep them under control using the armed forces at their disposal, when necessary, to ensure this happens.

Unless a world ruler is also its Imperial high noble (which is the case with some of the worlds we know of, such as Mora, but not the case with other worlds, such as Regina), an Imperial noble does not control the world they are assigned to. According to GT:Nobles they function more like ombudsmen for their worlds. (If you don't count Nobles, there is practically no evidence for what the average Imperial high noble does).

Keep in mind that megacorps will do their utmost to keep their stockholders happy and given that the Emperor is a major stockholder in most/nearly all megacorps, and the Imperial Family hold still more power in megacorps' boardroom, and that the Imperium is unabashedly imperialistic, it should be a no-brainer that Imperial policy heavily favors megacorps over member worlds.

Where do you get the idea that the Imperium is imperialistic? It has stayed at its current sized since the Civil War. Any expansion since then has been positively glacial. As an example, Margaret II mandated a special effort to open up District 268 in 941. In the 164 years between then an 1105, two worlds joined the Imperium (assuming that neither Mertactor nor Mille Falcs were already members in 941).

The Imperium's goal to "protect interstellar trade, to encourage travel and commerce" favors the megacorps in that the megacorps, who exist to make money off of "interstellar trade and travel and commerce" and control the greatest majority (nearly 100%) of the market benefit directly as a result of this policy.

The Imperium is in a position to favor megacorporations over lesser interstellar corporations, no argument there. But unless it actually does so secifically, the goal of promoting interstellar travel and commerce is just as beneficial for the smallest Imperially chartered company as for the largest megacorporation.

If the various 'captive' worlds are occupied by Imperial Forces in the form of counterinsurgency or police action deployments, then perhaps those Pacification Campaigns are on-going as governments and public opinions shift on member worlds.

Very few of the worlds with captive governments that we have further details about are occupied by Imperial forces. A few are, granted. But most are not.


Hans

 

[Ishmael]

That seems to be the case where the sectors for which UWPs have been provided are concerned (A bit of a puzzler, actually, since it would appear that the presence or absence of the Imperium has absolutely no effect on the distribution of government types ).

I'm almost certain that one of the later books (or a JTAS article?) introduced the military junta as another government form that could result in a type 6 classification.

I don't see how a junta could be considered a 'captive' gov.
The junta would be local and not an outside (another world) governing body. I'd call a junta a dictatorship or oligarchy. It would be listed by the IISS as such.

There are peaceful ways to acquire ownership of neighboring worlds. Colonizing them when they are empty leaps to mind.

I can see that ( prison world? but with police as occupation forces... not economically viable though ), but not for 10% of all possible worlds. Besides, once there are people there, they will form their own form of government, which will be the UWP for the resulting colony. "Captive" would be when the outside polity forces a government on them with outsiders as the leaders without regard to what the local population desires; that's why its called "captive".

Captive government means "government by a leadership answerable to an outside group; a colony or conquered area." [TTB:85] I find it a lot stranger that so many low-population worlds aren't captive governments...

I figure that the smaller worlds are the colonies and their government types are listed in the UWP as whatever they are, not what the sponsoring polity is. 'Captive' is skewed slightly towards larger populations which would wish to govern themselves and not have rule by outsiders forced upon them.

Where do you get the idea that the Imperium is imperialistic? It has stayed at its current sized since the Civil War. Any expansion since then has been positively glacial. As an example, Margaret II mandated a special effort to open up District 268 in 941. In the 164 years between then an 1105, two worlds joined the Imperium (assuming that neither Mertactor nor Mille Falcs were already members in 941).

Seems obvious to me.

Imperialism, as defined by the Dictionary of Human Geography, is "the creation and/or maintenance of an unequal economic, cultural, and territorial relationship, usually between states and often in the form of an empire, based on domination and subordination." Imperialism, as described by that work is primarily a Western undertaking that employs "expansionist, mercantilist policies".

Sounds like the Sylean Federation and the first 500-600 years of the Third Imperium to me. The entire Pacification Wars is also a tip-off given the stated reason for the expansion that occurred.

The term 'imperialism' should not be confused with ‘colonialism’ as it often is. Edward Said suggested that imperialism involves “the practice, the theory and the attitudes of a dominating metropolitan centre ruling a distant territory’”. He goes on to say colonialism refers to the “implanting of settlements on a distant territory”. Robert Young supports this thinking as he puts forward that imperialism operates from the center, it is a state policy, and is developed for ideological as well as financial reasons whereas colonialism is nothing more than development for settlement or commercial intentions.

Most member worlds were not settled, but were re-contacted after the long night.
If the worlds were accepted as equals and not as subordinates to a central power which keeps them subordinate, then why aren't tech levels consistent across the realm? Because the "maintenance of an unequal economic, cultural, and territorial relationship, usually between states and often in the form of an empire, based on domination and subordination." prevents most member worlds from advancing.

An imperial political structure is established and maintained.....as a coercive, hegemonic empire of indirect conquest and control with power (the perception that the emperor can physically enforce his desired goals)

Not all empires are created through direct military conquest...
and this seems to be the real reason for the Imperial Fleets.... the show of power to keep worlds in line.
After all, going against the Imperium is an immediate call for navy/marines to show up.
Nobles act as intermediaries between the world they are assigned to, and the Imperium. They put the Imperium's interests first ahead of the world's or citizens' interests. Nobles who do not put Imperial interests first may be considered treasonous, eh?

Very few of the worlds with captive governments that we have further details about are occupied by Imperial forces. A few are, granted. But most are not.

So, how many of those sort of worlds were detailed? Is it enough to demonstrate a trend? Given how very few worlds were officially described in canon out of the ~11,000 worlds that exist?

 

[Blue Ghost]

Plenty more, just not coming forth because they are entirely NOTU...

Share, dude

 

[rancke]

I can see that ( prison world? but with police as occupation forces... not economically viable though ), but not for 10% of all possible worlds.

So there are other explanations for other worlds. I could have overlooked one, but as far as I can recall, not a single world with government type 6 of which we have specific information is one that has been conquered by a neighboring world. Granted, the only worlds of which we have such additional information is in the Spinward Marches and the Solomani Rim, and I must confess that I haven't studied my copy of GT:Rim of Fire in any detail.

Besides, once there are people there, they will form their own form of government, which will be the UWP for the resulting colony. "Captive" would be when the outside polity forces a government on them with outsiders as the leaders without regard to what the local population desires; that's why its called "captive".

I don't know why it is called 'captive', but I do know what the defintion of a type 6 government is. I just quoted it in my previous post. I can't help it if you think it ought to be different. It isn't different. So, no, 'captive' would be when the government is answerable to an outside group; a colony or conquered area.

I figure that the smaller worlds are the colonies and their government types are listed in the UWP as whatever they are, not what the sponsoring polity is.

I figure that the original authors didn't consider the political ramifications of being a low-population world. For in-game explanations I mostly fall back on legal fictions and the occasional quirk of history (e.g. analogs of San Marino and Monaco).

'Captive' is skewed slightly towards larger populations which would wish to govern themselves and not have rule by outsiders forced upon them.

Quite likely, although not necessarily so in all cases. The point is, there's a big difference between a world that has a membership treaty with the Imperium that includes its ownership of a neighboring colony and a world with a membership treaty that does not mention any such colony. Especially if the neighboring world has its own membership treaty. In the first case, the Imperium would be committed to allowing the world to retain ownership of its colony, by force if necessary; in the second case the Imperium would be commitred to protecting the second world from conquest by the first (And vice versa, of course).

Bottom line, some worlds being owned by other worlds is not evidence that the Imperium has stood idly by while the owning world conquered the owned world.

Where do you get the idea that the Imperium is imperialistic? It has stayed at its current sized since the Civil War. Any expansion since then has been positively glacial. As an example, Margaret II mandated a special effort to open up District 268 in 941. In the 164 years between then an 1105, two worlds joined the Imperium (assuming that neither Mertactor nor Mille Falcs were already members in 941).

Seems obvious to me.

Quote:
Imperialism, as defined by the Dictionary of Human Geography, is "the creation and/or maintenance of an unequal economic, cultural, and territorial relationship, usually between states and often in the form of an empire, based on domination and subordination." Imperialism, as described by that work is primarily a Western undertaking that employs "expansionist, mercantilist policies".​

Sounds like the Sylean Federation and the first 500-600 years of the Third Imperium to me. The entire Pacification Wars is also a tip-off given the stated reason for the expansion that occurred.

Sounds like the the first 500-600 years of the Third Imperium to me too. So what? That was 500 years before the Classic Era. Sure, the Imperium used to be imperialistic, but it has not been imperialistic for 500 years now. You might as well accuse present-day Britain of being imperialistic based on its action in India centuries ago.

So the Imperium is not imperialistic any more, and hasn't been for centuries. It follows that its present-day policies are not shaped by imperialistic tendencies.

Most member worlds were not settled, but were re-contacted after the long night.

Thanks to the mess-up with First Survey, we have very little reliable information about the population levels of Milieu 0. If TPTB ever revisits Milieu 0, I sincerely hope they won't just use the vanilla world generation system to generate worlds but will take the time to regress the Classic Era UWPs in some reasonable way. But until and unless that happens, we really don't know.

If the worlds were accepted as equals and not as subordinates to a central power which keeps them subordinate, then why aren't tech levels consistent across the realm?

Since we don't really know how it is possible for a world to remain at a medium tech level when it has access to TL15 knowledge, it's impossible to say anything definite on that subject. It's certainly impossible to draw any solid inferences from it.

Because the "maintenance of an unequal economic, cultural, and territorial relationship, usually between states and often in the form of an empire, based on domination and subordination." prevents most member worlds from advancing.

That would be a lot more convincing if you had any direct evidence of that domination and subordination.

Very few of the worlds with captive governments that we have further details about are occupied by Imperial forces. A few are, granted. But most are not.

So, how many of those sort of worlds were detailed? Is it enough to demonstrate a trend? Given how very few worlds were officially described in canon out of the ~11,000 worlds that exist?

GT:Behind the Claw lists 39 worlds in the Spinward Marches with government type 6. 27 are owned by other worlds. Of the remaining 12, five have Imperial military governments and two are run by the Imperial Colonial Office.

I haven't looked through what Rim of Fire says about the worlds of the Solomani Rim.


Hans

 

[aramis]

Share, dude

You asked for it.

Generally, I consider any Army, Marine, Navy or Police Reward Noble to be elligible for a merc license as a form of fief-equivalent.


Likewise, IMTU, the "Imperial Army" does exist, but not as a higher-command system - there is no "Army High Command". The "high command" the Army answers to is the Marine High Command...

Fief-holders are allowed to raise troops from their fief-dwellers; these troops, along with Huscarles are the non-colonial units of the "Imperial Army" - they're about as standardized as their TL allows.

The default "Imperial Army Weapon" is the TL12 ACR. The default armor is the CES. Elites have Combat Armor. (Only the marines routinely field Battle Dress Armor in units larger than a platoon.) The default heavy weapon is a 4CM RAM GL.

Standard squad structure is "IAI12 Ref 1":
1 Sergeant (E5-E6). ACR. RadioComm Distant-12
1 Corporal E4. ACR. RadioComm Distant-12
1 Lance Corporal E3. ACR. RadioComm Distant-12
1 Comm Spec (E2-E3) with RadioComm Continental-1, and LaserComm Regional-12.
1 Laser Specialist (E2-E3) with Laser Rifle.
1-3 Grenadier (E2-E3) with ACR, Underbarrel 4CM RAM GL
0-1 Medic (E2-E3) with ACR, Medical Kit (1 per section)
3-6 Privates (E1-E2) with ACR.
0-1 Driver (E1-E3) with SMG.
0-1 G-Carrier, with HMG, VRF Gauss Gun, or Laser, LaserComm Continental-12, RadioComm Planetary-12

Standard Types:
Infantry, Leg: As above, all with CES, pack and provisions for 1 week, personal med kit, RadioComm Long-12 to Long-15. No G-Carrier. Most carry blade as utility weapon. NCO's may carry a saber.

Infantry, Lift:
As above, all with CES, pack and provisions for 1 week, personal med kit, RadioComm Long-12 to Long-15. Squad has G-Carrier. Most carry blade as utility weapon. NCO's may carry a saber.

Infantry, Bounce:
As above, all with Combat-12 or better Armor, pack and provisions for 1 week, personal medkit, RadioComm Distant-12, Grav belt. Comm Spec has RadioComm Continental-12. Most carry blade as utility weapon. NCO's may carry a saber.

Infantry, Heavy:
As above, all with Combat-12 or better armor, pack and provisions for 1 week, RadioComm long-12. G-Carrier if grav-mobile.

IAI-12 Ref 2 Section:
Two squads; one with an E6 Section Sergeant, one with an E5 Sergeant. The Section Sergeant is the Section NCOIC.

Standard Platoon IAI-12 Ref 3:
1 Lt (O1-O2)
1 PltSgt (E7)
1 PltCommo (E2-E4)
1 Armory Tech (E1-E3)
4 or 6 IAI-12r1 Squads organized into 2 or 3 sections of 2 squads each.

Above this, the
IAI-12r4 Company of 3-5 platoons, plus a staff squad of up to 12 staff, commanded by a Capt or Major, with a First Sergeant E-8, each with commo, batman, and clerk.
Ad-hoc Battalions of 2 companies, commanded by either
IAI-12r5 Regiment, commanded by a Colonel, with a Lietenant Colonel and a Sgt Major E9, each with commo, batman and clerk. Has a section or platoon of staff (admin, commo, medical) and a section or platoon of technical support (Mechanics and Armorers).
IAI-12r6 Brigade: Commanded by a Briagadier, has Brigade Sergeant Major (E9.1), 2-5 Regiments, "Brigade Colonel" as Exec, Company of support staff and mechaics. This is the "integral unit" for most fiefs - The individual enlists in a brigade, and serves until retirement... but may be "loaned" to higher headquarters units. Has an attached training company. May be overstrength on paper by up to 100%... the additional forces are not mobilized for IAI-12 purposes.

IAA-12r1 Armor Lance/Platoon.
20Td+ Vehicles: 1 as Platoon.
15Td-20Td vehicles: 2-3 vehicles as sections.
9-15Td Vehicles: 4-6 vehicles as squads, in sections of 2 vehicles
3-10Td Vehicles: 4-8 vehicles as squads, in sections of 2 vehicles.
0.2-4Td vehicles: 6-18 vehicles as fireteams, in squads of 2-3 vehicles, and sections of 2 squads.

All vehicles need to be equipped to RadioComm Long-12 or longer.

Commander is Lt (01-02), assisted by PltSgt. Each commands one vehicle; other squad-vehicles commanded by Sergeants or Section Sergeants.

IAA-12r2 Armor Squadron/Company
3-6 lances, plus Captain or Major and 1st Sergeant. Command vehicle is to have RadioComm Planetary-12 and LaserComm Planetary-12.

IAA-12r3 Armor Regiment.
Commanded by Colonel, assisted by Lt. Colonel and RSM. Has command lance of Colonel, Lt Col, RSM and an EW/Commo squad. Ad-hoc "Wings" (Battalions) of 2-3 squadrons may be used. 4-8 Squadrons.

IAA-12r4 Armor Brigade
Commanded by Brigadier, assisted by "Brigade Colonel" and Brigade Sgt Major. Command Lance comprised of Bdr, BCol, BSM, and EW squads/sections. Has a repair company or two additional. Has a training company.

Brigade Colonel is a post with distinctive insignia, but not a separate rank.
Since I use 1-3 small silver bursts for O1-O3, and 1-3 large gold for O4-O6 with silver epaulette edging, then large 4-point gold stars on large silver bursts with wider gold edging for O7+ , the Brigadier is the only gold star on silver burst in the Brigade... but the Brigade Colonel wears one of the following: Gold edged epaulette with no starburst; Gold Edged epaulette with silver star but no starburst; Gold edged epaulette with wreath; Silver edged epaulette with silver star; Silver edged epaulette with 4 gold starbursts; Silver and gold (alternating checks) edged epaulette with 3 gold starbursts.

Demi-Brigades are often used as ad-hoc field units. Often quite stably.

IAI-12 and IAA-12 are followed by about 60% of units. Other, more colorful, structures exist in many worlds armed forces, and are sometimes mirrored by fiefholders on world, or by the local noble's huscarles. Many simply upgrade weapons and commo.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Wow, that's an excellent piece of planning.

I have to admit that I always figured the official Imperial Army to be fielding ACRs, and not high-energy weapons for every grunt they fielded. That part of both OTU and GT does bother me. All the while the poor Zhos and the rest have to make do with LASERs or other percussion stuff.

My personal squad always looked like your standard WW2 infantry squad mish mashed with a Vietnam era squad; two SMGs, 4 - 7 riflemen, one officer, one sergeant, one heavy gunner. Each had the option of being a grenadier.

With noble units I imagine they could get quite creative as you just posted. It's late, and I have to take a three hour nap before getting up for work. More later.

 

[Gray Pennell]

Aramis my question is how is this used in your game? Do the players encounter these units regularly? Its kind of the same argument as the big ship.

I have seen my players react well to things like uniforms and insignia or painted ships. It gives the people in question an Identity that the players relate to the whole. Oh that Aslan has a Long Strider crew patch he must know Dr. Awae. Or oh no its the White Uniformed Trexalon Officers there goes the neighborhood. Now I have the unofficial Cobalt Accord that protects Ancient tech/sites. The main npc has slight of hand down pat. Hey Ronald has a "Gyros" oh wait its a Gauss Pistol. When they see the "Gyros" they know there is trouble. I never have to show the whole Trexalon force or Aslan ship they just know based on that few things.

 

[aramis]

Aramis my question is how is this used in your game? Do the players encounter these units regularly? Its kind of the same argument as the big ship.

I have seen my players react well to things like uniforms and insignia or painted ships. It gives the people in question an Identity that the players relate to the whole. Oh that Aslan has a Long Strider crew patch he must know Dr. Awae. Or oh no its the White Uniformed Trexalon Officers there goes the neighborhood. Now I have the unofficial Cobalt Accord that protects Ancient tech/sites. The main npc has slight of hand down pat. Hey Ronald has a "Gyros" oh wait its a Gauss Pistol. When they see the "Gyros" they know there is trouble. I never have to show the whole Trexalon force or Aslan ship they just know based on that few things.

I've run several "in service" games, and several occasions, players have had fiefs and wanted to raise units, plus I've run several merc games over the years. The IAI reference is the default expectation for army troops: ACR's, CES's, and integral G-Carriers. BIRs (Bounce Infantry) are a standard field deployment unit, and not uncommon as Ducal Huscarles.

Note that the ad-hoc nature of Battalions is intentional, and modeled after the 1860-1880 period US Regiments - but having them part of a larger brigade modeled after the UK regimental system.

Note also: This is, IMTU, the "Imperial Army" - in other words, there is no IA, just a bunch of standards and a requirement for member worlds to provide so many units that meet them.

Wypoc/Lanth, for example, meets their IA requirement with Police... since they have no "standing army"... (And their police combine army, police, fire, and EMS into a single unified command. End Result: The 3I considers the Wypoc police to BE the Wypoc Army, even tho Wypoc doesn't. In order to not be "reorganized" by Duke Regina or Count Lanth, they maintain some IAI-12 organized MP units.)

The "Brigadal system" means that Army Guys from different worlds will NOT have ever served in the same regiment, unless they got seconded to some noble's huscarles. Which immediately makes them "Special Snowflake" characters already. It usually also means that they now have a reason for their Soc5 soldier to know HE Baron Sir Sumbodi.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Aramis; so you have a GURPS like setup for your group. That's interesting.

Getting back to nobles; if a noble had governmental powers, then he would probably use contemporary convention and structure, as opposed to a troop of mechanized cavalry with him as the lone officer in command. Otherwise if his influence was only political, but with a clause that he could muster security, then his ability to raise an armed force would be limited.

But, if he did have power in concert, or in addition to, the local government, then things would be very interesting indeed. To me the 3I speaks of two systems operating side by side and overlapping one another, as you or someone else suggested earlier on. You have this privileged social class that has some kind of political and social clout, but to me it seems unclear as to how much pull they can exercise.

Let's say it's based on wealth; then it's pretty clearly defined, and a force mustered by noble would depend solely on his finances. If it was by reputation or some kind or ranking system where he can call upon lesser nobles (like knights) to bring forces to him, then we're talking something really interesting as all sorts of knights, like in the middle ages, would kick a group of armed men or money to said upper noble for the purposes of creating a force. That would be in tune with the historical regimental example you cited, which itself is founded upon the fuedal system.

I guess the reason I brought up this whole thread is because I've never seen it addressed here or elsewhere, or in any other gaming system save D&D where the social level is clearly a fuedal structure. I wonder if a 3I noble can pull together several squadrons of fighters to create some kind of fighter wing for some action on a world. During an invasion or some action of some kind, what is that noble's roll in the command structure?

Those are actually rhetorical questions. Again, I think the ambiguity is rich for adventure and story material. Can that knight pull rank over a platoon's captain and order a charge? Does Prince Gregory of Efate have authority to kick Major Baxter out of the command structure? I think it's rife with dramatic and story potential. Imagine a group of Imperial regulars guarding something, and Princess Jane comes marching in with her personal palace guard of three-hundred, all wearing the Imperial sunburst (hell, maybe them emplem's glittery pink or something), and she orders Colonel Wayne to stand down his forces, or to give command over to her, or she merely states that she's commandeering him and his troop for some humanitarian mission two jumps away on Boughne.

That's just my imagination at work. What actually happens is up to the players in question, and I don't think an official rule set is needed for this. I just think it's really vibrant area that makes the Imperium the Imperium.

 

[Carlobrand]

I've run several "in service" games, and several occasions, players have had fiefs and wanted to raise units, plus I've run several merc games over the years. The IAI reference is the default expectation for army troops: ACR's, CES's, and integral G-Carriers. BIRs (Bounce Infantry) are a standard field deployment unit, and not uncommon as Ducal Huscarles.

Note that the ad-hoc nature of Battalions is intentional, and modeled after the 1860-1880 period US Regiments - but having them part of a larger brigade modeled after the UK regimental system.

Note also: This is, IMTU, the "Imperial Army" - in other words, there is no IA, just a bunch of standards and a requirement for member worlds to provide so many units that meet them.

Wypoc/Lanth, for example, meets their IA requirement with Police... since they have no "standing army"... (And their police combine army, police, fire, and EMS into a single unified command. End Result: The 3I considers the Wypoc police to BE the Wypoc Army, even tho Wypoc doesn't. In order to not be "reorganized" by Duke Regina or Count Lanth, they maintain some IAI-12 organized MP units.)

The "Brigadal system" means that Army Guys from different worlds will NOT have ever served in the same regiment, unless they got seconded to some noble's huscarles. Which immediately makes them "Special Snowflake" characters already. It usually also means that they now have a reason for their Soc5 soldier to know HE Baron Sir Sumbodi.

I'm still a firm believer in the Imperial Army as a distinct and independent branch of service, but I'm curious as to how you're handling Wypoc. I was under the impression the UK regimental system didn't make big demands on every little thorpe and hamlet - a given regiment recruited from a region big enough to serve its needs, collectively including all the little thorpes and hamlets in that region. For the Traveller incarnation, if the world is too thinly populated (or, in this case, environmentally impaired) to raise a brigade in its own right, wouldn't they consolidate recruits under some larger organizational structure, for example allowing neighboring Dinomn or Rech to recruit there, or setting a reasonable recruitment quota for Wypoc and then merging the recruits into the IA brigades of one of the larger neighbors? Given the number of lightly populated worlds, allowing special arrangements is going to make for a smaller combat force and a bigger burden on worlds whose young men are actually heading into harms way, might make for some resentment.

 

[rancke]

Imagine a group of Imperial regulars guarding something, and Princess Jane comes marching in with her personal palace guard of three-hundred, all wearing the Imperial sunburst (hell, maybe them emplem's glittery pink or something), and she orders Colonel Wayne to stand down his forces, or to give command over to her, or she merely states that she's commandeering him and his troop for some humanitarian mission two jumps away on Boughne.

It depends on whether Princess Jane is also the Imperial high noble for the world. If she is, she has the authority to interfere in the normal chain of command and issue orders[*]. However, she will know that eventually she'll have to justify her action to the local duke or, ultimately, the Emperor, and if she doesn't have a really good reason, she could find herself stripped of her title.

[*] Her superior high nobles would have the authority to countermand those orders, though.​

If she's just an Imperial honor noble who happens to live on (or be visiting) the world, or if she's just a local non-Imperial noble, she has no authority whatsoever. As an analogy, imagine how the CO of a US Army base would react if the governor of the state the base was located in came marching with a National Guard unit and began issuing orders to him.


Hans

 

[aramis]

Wypoc's big enough to be demanded to supply a Company or two.

it's Pop 5 PM9 - 900,000 people. At 1/1000 people (a fairly doable rate) it should be able to support a military of 900 people AND a police AND a fire service of about the same. EMS also would be about the same... by combining them, it gives that 3600 man force some strategic reserve, and yet, allows them to make their war effort contribution in bodies rather than cash. Keeping in mind, an IAI-12 company is minimum 3 platoons of 52 plus a command squad of 12... 178 men... but usually more like 200-250 men. I figure the Imperium expects about 1/4 of the local forces to be deployable... and bases it upon a 1:4000 rate of the population. So one company is their expected "contribution"... it uses police ranks even tho' it's an IAI-12 formation. It's also the various local Critical Response Units... so it's not really a standing unit. It's a series of separate squads from across the planet's several domes.

The local Baron's Huscarles are a mere platoon... of elite CA-12 troops... but they're also the starport guards. He's also got a platoon of uniformed inspection personnel. He imports the armor (and tech training) from Regina/Regina. The Huscarles are likely to be left alone... and the inspection personnel are of a non-standard type, so are unlikely to be zip-yanked, even tho' they're liveried just like the BD troops when not in field uniform.

It's system navy, tho', is too small to be tapped - 8 Type T corvettes. 4 on station usually. All built at Regina. Mostly to haul customs inspectors.

 

[Blue Ghost]

It depends on whether Princess Jane is also the Imperial high noble for the world. If she is, she has the authority to interfere in the normal chain of command and issue orders[*]. However, she will know that eventually she'll have to justify her action to the local duke or, ultimately, the Emperor, and if she doesn't have a really good reason, she could find herself stripped of her title.

[*] Her superior high nobles would have the authority to countermand those orders, though.​

If she's just an Imperial honor noble who happens to live on (or be visiting) the world, or if she's just a local non-Imperial noble, she has no authority whatsoever. As an analogy, imagine how the CO of a US Army base would react if the governor of the state the base was located in came marching with a National Guard unit and began issuing orders to him.


Hans

And that, sir, is an adventure :file_22:

 

[Blue Ghost]

Another thought occurred to me; what if princess Jane, being a visiting noble, outranks the local nobility? Say there's unrest in the startown. Say some local lord, some lesser baron, is ignoring ... hell, I don't know ... the plight of homeless children who care for puppies on the streets of Hellsville. Say princess Jane is the daughter of a subsector duke. I can see her with her personal guard (say a six or eight man detachment from her palace guard back home) approaching the local huscarls, and pulling rank.

She arrests Duke Heartless, by having her guards seize him, and toss him in her ship's engineering fresher, where her engineering crew guard him. She then approaches Heartlesses huscarls, and comandeers them for a humanitarian mission to build and/or provide shelters for the 3 to 5 year olds who've been living on the streets with puppies.

Mobile barracks are setup, medics are pressed into service, and HQ is turned into an adoption agency, personally overseen by princess Jane.

Meanwhile, Baron Heartless stews in the fresher with well worn issues of Playbeing. Something about unclothed K'Kree and Vargr just don't do it for the lesser Baron who threatens charges once released. Princess Jane eventually orders the camp stricken once the last little boy or girl and their puppy is adopted by a loving family who also has a pony for said child on their farm.

I know that's kind of a silly example, but it makes one wonder if an off world noble with clout can throw their weight around. I wonder if a noble would clash with a noble, and what the outcome would be. To me this is another massively rich gray area that could go either way depending on the egos of the personae in question, and the willingness of their backers to go one way or another.

It could be that Baron Heartless orders Jane and her guards arrested and thrown in some high tech dungeon for a few months so he can clean up the startown for a royal inspection. It might be that the troops involved are torn. It may be that the legitimate local government tries to intervene, but it could be that either noble is too darn popular for the government to do anything about the "crisis".

I'll think of something a little more grounded a realistic later on.

Just flexing my imagination here.

 

[rancke]

Another thought occurred to me; what if princess Jane, being a visiting noble, outranks the local nobility?

Do you mean the local local nobility or the local Imperial nobility? In both cases the answer is the same: She's not in the same "chain of command". The local local nobility (aka the planetary nobility or the parochial nobility) don't have anything to do with the Imperial nobility (unless some of them wear two hats) and visiting Imperial nobles don't have any authority over local Imperial nobility.

Say there's unrest in the startown. Say some local lord, some lesser baron, is ignoring ... hell, I don't know ... the plight of homeless children who care for puppies on the streets of Hellsville. Say princess Jane is the daughter of a subsector duke. I can see her with her personal guard (say a six or eight man detachment from her palace guard back home) approaching the local huscarls, and pulling rank.

If she's the daughter of a duke, she not even a peer in her own right. She uses one of her parent's lesser titles as a matter of courtesy and is treated with all the deference due to that title, but that's all.

She arrests Duke Heartless, by having her guards seize him, and toss him in her ship's engineering fresher, where her engineering crew guard him.

That's kidnapping for a start. Also, "Duke" Heartless must be a local noble title, because an Imperial duke would have enough huscarles to prevent such a suicidal move on behalf of the Princess. She herself would be granted an audience with alacrity because of her social rank, but her guards would be entertained in some other part of the Duke's palace.

Actually, unless it's a really small population, any planetary ruler would have enough guards to prevent the princess from stepping in like that. To arrest a planetary ruler you need either a fleet in orbit or the impeccable legal authority that assures the ruler's henchmen that if they don't help you, there will be a fleet in orbit in a few months.

She then approaches Heartlesses huscarls, and comandeers them for a humanitarian mission to build and/or provide shelters for the 3 to 5 year olds who've been living on the streets with puppies.

She'd be much better off using her allowance to pay someone to do so. Or wheedling the Starport Director or the Imperial Legate to step in. Though they may rightly feel that doing so would be to violate the autonomy of a member world. The princess, as a private person, is much better placed to interfere, really.

I know that's kind of a silly example, but it makes one wonder if an off world noble with clout can throw their weight around. I wonder if a noble would clash with a noble, and what the outcome would be.

An off-world noble generally wouldn't have any clout (With the very powerful exception of the 'liege lords' of the world's high noble; the Countess of Rethe would have the authority to interfere with the official orders of the Marquis of Inthe).

The thing is, even the Marquis of Inthe can't just give any orders he wants. He is limited to stepping in if Imperial officials fail to do their duties or abuse their powers or if a crisis that affect the interests of the Imperium that the local officials can't handle arises.

It could be that Baron Heartless orders Jane and her guards arrested and thrown in some high tech dungeon for a few months so he can clean up the startown for a royal inspection.

He might, if his temper overrules his good sense. He'd be better off to order her off his world and press charges against her in an Imperial court. Or perhaps use her actions to wring some political advantage out of her doting father.

The misguided troops that didn't arrest the Princess from the start are probably going to spend the rest of their lives doing hard labor.


Hans

 

[Blue Ghost]

Rancke2; how dare you tear at my over the top example with logic.

Seriously, I think your counter begs the question of what protocol exists for nobles. I've never seen them addressed in the rules set. Then again I never bought Striker, so I was clueless as to how the real Imperial Army operates.

Also, I'm pretty much clueless as to how real nobility functions and functioned historically, so I have no idea as to what privileged person X can do to Y when visiting Z. To me it just all seems rather arbitrary. As you pointed out there's a hierarchy involved, but for the lay person it seems somewhat random or unstructured in its application. I think a really important noble might actually try a mini coups of sorts for a real emergency that was being ignored. It might turn into a potential small conflict, at which point the Imperium lets the nobles clash, or the local security forces step in to stem whatever it is that's happening.

To my eyes there seems to be a dependency on reputation. If a really popular noble visited a world in crisis, and the people knew that person, it would seem likely that they would flock to that person for assistance. In what capacity that noble could act would seem to be not only dependent on the actual ranking structure, but their willingness to do so as well.

 

[rancke]

Seriously, I think your counter begs the question of what protocol exists for nobles. I've never seen them addressed in the rules set.

Before GT:Nobles the available evidence was very scant and what there was was often pretty ambiguous. If you don't accept GT as valid evidence, there's very little other than the essay about nobles from Library Data N-Z and while it is (mostly) clear enough as far as it goes, it doesn't go very far.

So perhaps it would help if you try to think of some present-day (or 19th Century) Earth analogy such as the British Imperium. There are, of course, some pretty fundamental differences in the political setup, so one should be careful with the analogies, but sometimes they can be useful.

For example, the British government was dominated by noblemen. How would the Earl of Barsetshire, Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, have reacted if his superior in noble rank, the Duke of Dumbleton, had marched into his office and started giving him orders? How would the British government have reacted if the Duke had arrested the Earl and taken over his job? The job assigned to him by King and Parliament? (And how come the Duke didn't have a government post of his own? )

Also, I'm pretty much clueless as to how real nobility functions and functioned historically, so I have no idea as to what privileged person X can do to Y when visiting Z.

There's no one true way for nobility to act. I'm quite positive that Imperial nobles differ in several important ways from British nobles. And they differed from nobles in other times and places.

To me it just all seems rather arbitrary. As you pointed out there's a hierarchy involved, but for the lay person it seems somewhat random or unstructured in its application. I think a really important noble might actually try a mini coups of sorts for a real emergency that was being ignored.

Oh, quite probably. But what would the Imperium consider a real emergency? Strephon seems like a nice guy and almost certainly views the suffering of children and puppies with concern, but he has other concerns too. If he interferes with the internal affairs of a member world for a reason that doesn't affect the Imperium, how much does he scare the governments of the other 10,999 member worlds?


Hans

 

[DangerousThing]

I did notice that the visiting noblewoman was called "Princess' Jane. What are the daughters of the Emperor called?

Because I thought that was the only "Princess" position around other than local nobles. But again, I could be easily mistaken.

I do agree that her title *may* be a curtesy title, but it could also be a real title if the father is also "Prince" of something and he choose to give that title to his daughter.

And if she *is* the daughter of the Emperor, this becomes a much more thorny issue. Maybe she should't intervine but she might have enough clought to do so. Though putting the poor man in the fresher with *that* type of readig material for a couple of weeks might be going too far. :-0

 

[rancke]

I did notice that the visiting noblewoman was called "Princess' Jane. What are the daughters of the Emperor called?

Princesses. And the sons are princes. The heir to the throne adds a 'Grand' in front.

Because I thought that was the only "Princess" position around other than local nobles. But again, I could be easily mistaken.

It's the only Imperial princesses around, but the king of a world could have an Imperial title as well, such as baron or marquis or viscount or count or even duke, so his daughter would be a princess in addition to her courtesy Imperial title. If she was incognito she might be using her planetary title.

Basically, I didn't want to do any more quibbling about BG's post than I was already doing, so I just assumed some such situation.

I do agree that her title *may* be a courtesy title, but it could also be a real title if the father is also "Prince" of something and he choose to give that title to his daughter.

Yes, but it wouldn't be an Imperial title.

And if she *is* the daughter of the Emperor, this becomes a much more thorny issue. Maybe she should't intervine but she might have enough clought to do so. Though putting the poor man in the fresher with *that* type of readig material for a couple of weeks might be going too far. :-0

A close member of the Emperor's family is quite likely to carry an Imperial Warrant (unless the Emperor doesn't trust him or her with one). In which case said prince or princess has enormous authority and access to lots and lots of funds. And hopefully the discretion not to to use it for inappropriate purposes.


Hans