AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
The Cyclone is a short range littoral patrol craft? That would be more like an SDB?
A Gazelle is a long range deep-space capable ship, something like a long range deep-sea capable ship?
Ok, What is the Role of a close Escort?
- Thread starter infojunky
- Start date
A Gazelle is a long range deep-space capable ship, something like a long range deep-sea capable ship?
This brings up an interesting question.
Simply, is the computer DM in HG representative of the computers contribution to the process?
It's pretty much a "game changer", and very powerful DM. But, to be blunt, does the computer an battelship is carrying really give it that much of an edge over the computer of a, say, Escort ship?
Seems a bit overpowered.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
It's so important that it's an implicit TL bonus. Any well-designed warship will have the maximum computer available, even heavy fighters.
So, a TL-15 ship (m/9) will have a DM+1 when shooting at a TL-14 ship (m/8), and the TL-14 ship get a DM-1. That is a huge advantage.
Hence, it's not about the size of the ship...
I was unclear. I was distinguishing between LBB5 first and second editions for the Gazelle, not between LBB2 and LBB5 (either edition).
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kilemall
SOC-14 5K
It’s not economically realistic or viable and can’t take serious hits especially with LBB5 critical hits. Anybody putting a 400 ton vessel against anything even slightly larger has just created a majorly expensive coffin.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
An agility 6 400t ship has a defensive DM of 7, everything is at a penalty of 7 to hit it.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
Kilemall is of course correct. A Zho with a good computer and a missile bay can hit and the result is an orgy of size crits.
But we can counter that with a bit of armour, size 4 plus armour 10 will prevent size crits from factor 9 batteries. So we must have armour 10...
But we can counter that with a bit of armour, size 4 plus armour 10 will prevent size crits from factor 9 batteries. So we must have armour 10...
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
Fortunately the extra armour makes the ship safe from computer radiation damage from nukes, so we can dispense with the fib computer, freeing up almost enough space for the armour.
The result is a better and cheaper ship! Thanks, kilemall.
Just for Spinward Flow I rounded the power plant up to 40 EP for a rating of 10. It now has an EP in reserve for another laser or something.
It now has no extra space for passengers, no medical low berth, and less cargo. Very cramped...
It's now fairly pointless to fire bays at it, it would only disable a missile turret or so. It would take 12 weapon hits to disable it, taking 13 nuke hits, the result of firing 78 missile bays at it. After all that it would lose its weapons (that could be repaired) and some fuel.
More worryingly there is a 1/36 chance of a M-drive hit, a single point of armour more would prevent that...
The result is a better and cheaper ship! Thanks, kilemall.
Just for Spinward Flow I rounded the power plant up to 40 EP for a rating of 10. It now has an EP in reserve for another laser or something.
It now has no extra space for passengers, no medical low berth, and less cargo. Very cramped...
Code:
CE-4146A92-A30000-25003-0 MCr 406 400 Dton
bearing 3 11 2 Crew=10
batteries 3 11 2 TL=15
Cargo=4 Fuel=200 EP=40 Agility=6
Dual Occupancy 4 507
USP # Dton Cost
Hull, Streamlined Custom 4 400
Configuration Needle/Wedge 1 48
Scoops Streamlined 0
Armour 10 A 44 57
Jump Drive 4 1 20 80
Manoeuvre D M 6 1 23 48
Power Plant 10 1 40 120
Fuel, #J, #weeks J-4, 4 weeks 4 40
Purifier 1 3 0
Bridge 1 20 2
Computer m/9 9 1 13 140
Staterooms 4 16 2
Staterooms, Half 6 12 2
Cargo 4
Demountable Tanks J-4 1 160 0
Triple Turret Missile 3 2 2 5
Mixed Turret Full 1 1
Weapon Pulse 2 1 1
Weapon Sand 3 2 1
Mixed Turret Full 1 2
Weapon Fusion 5 1 2
Weapon Sand 3 1 0
Nominal Cost MCr 507,04 Sum: 4 507
Class Cost MCr 106,48 Valid ≥0 ≥0
Ship Cost MCr 405,63
Crew & High 0 Crew Bridge 2
Passengers Mid 0 10 Engineers 3
Low 0 Gunners 4
Extra SR 0 Frozen Service 1
# Frozen W 0 0 Flight 0
Marines 0 Marines 0It's now fairly pointless to fire bays at it, it would only disable a missile turret or so. It would take 12 weapon hits to disable it, taking 13 nuke hits, the result of firing 78 missile bays at it. After all that it would lose its weapons (that could be repaired) and some fuel.
More worryingly there is a 1/36 chance of a M-drive hit, a single point of armour more would prevent that...
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AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
Iteration 4:
Armour 11 (adds MCr 10 for a single point of armour).
Remove power reserve.
Rebalance the armament to three triple missile and a mixed double fusion/sandcaster turret. Saves a laser, hence an EP, and increases offensive punch. The sandcasters were useless against bays (basically the only thing that can hit it) anyway.
It takes 11 weapon hits to shell it, requiring on average 13.6 nuke hits, so firing 82 bays at it. Let's hope the enemy has something more exiting to fire at...
Armour 11 (adds MCr 10 for a single point of armour).
Remove power reserve.
Rebalance the armament to three triple missile and a mixed double fusion/sandcaster turret. Saves a laser, hence an EP, and increases offensive punch. The sandcasters were useless against bays (basically the only thing that can hit it) anyway.
Code:
CE-4146992-B30000-05003-0 MCr 410 400 Dton
bearing 1 1 3 Crew=10
batteries 1 1 3 TL=15
Cargo=4 Fuel=198 EP=38 Agility=6
Dual Occupancy 4 512
USP # Dton Cost
Hull, Streamlined Custom 4 400
Configuration Needle/Wedge 1 48
Scoops Streamlined 0
Armour 11 B 48 67
Jump Drive 4 1 20 80
Manoeuvre D M 6 1 23 48
Power Plant 9 1 38 114
Fuel, #J, #weeks J-4, 4 weeks 4 38
Purifier 1 3 0
Bridge 1 20 2
Computer m/9 9 1 13 140
Staterooms 4 16 2
Staterooms, Half 6 12 2
Cargo 4
Demountable Tanks J-4 1 160 0
Triple Turret Missile 3 3 3 7
Mixed Turret Full 1 2
Weapon Fusion 5 1 2
Weapon Sand 3 1 0
Nominal Cost MCr 512,29 Sum: 4 512
Class Cost MCr 107,58 Valid ≥0 ≥0
Ship Cost MCr 409,83
Crew & High 0 Crew Bridge 2
Passengers Mid 0 10 Engineers 3
Low 0 Gunners 4
Extra SR 0 Frozen Service 1
# Frozen W 0 0 Flight 0
Marines 0 Marines 0It takes 11 weapon hits to shell it, requiring on average 13.6 nuke hits, so firing 82 bays at it. Let's hope the enemy has something more exiting to fire at...
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
To be fair, anything under 1000 tons featuring J4, M6/A6 is going to be cramped for space, no matter what you do ... especially if you add armor into the mix.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
Oh, yes. I'm rather amazed that we can do it at all.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
Since we have already quite a lot of armour, why not go full hog with max armour?
I can't find anything non-essential to remove, so sadly I have to make the ship larger to fit more stuff.
520 Dt, Armour 15, MCr 550 (the armour is now the most expensive component)
An extra missile turret.
Free space down to 2 Dt...
It takes 12 weapon damage to shell it, requiring 36 nuke hits, so firing 216 Zho missile bays...
Basically it takes a particle spinal to destroy it. Not bad for 500 Dt...
I can't find anything non-essential to remove, so sadly I have to make the ship larger to fit more stuff.
520 Dt, Armour 15, MCr 550 (the armour is now the most expensive component)
An extra missile turret.
Free space down to 2 Dt...
Code:
CE-5146892-F30000-05003-0 MCr 546 520 Dton
bearing 1 1 4 Crew=12
batteries 1 1 4 TL=15
Cargo=2 Fuel=253,2 EP=45,2 Agility=6
Dual Occupancy 3 682
USP # Dton Cost
Hull, Streamlined Custom 5 520
Configuration Needle/Wedge 1 62
Scoops Streamlined 1
Armour 15 F 83 150
Jump Drive 4 1 26 104
Manoeuvre D T 6 1 35 72
Power Plant 8 1 45 136
Fuel, #J, #weeks J-4, 4 weeks 4 45
Purifier 1 4 0
Bridge 1 20 3
Computer m/9 9 1 13 140
Staterooms 4 16 2
Staterooms, Half 8 16 2
Cargo 3
Demountable Tanks J-4 1 208 0
Triple Turret Missile 3 4 4 9
Mixed Turret Full 1 2
Weapon Fusion 5 1 2
Weapon Sand 3 1 0
Nominal Cost MCr 682,38 Sum: 3 682
Class Cost MCr 143,30 Valid ≥0 ≥0
Ship Cost MCr 545,90
Crew & High 0 Crew Bridge 2
Passengers Mid 0 12 Engineers 4
Low 0 Gunners 5
Extra SR 0 Frozen Service 1
# Frozen W 0 0 Flight 0
Marines 0 Marines 0It takes 12 weapon damage to shell it, requiring 36 nuke hits, so firing 216 Zho missile bays...
Basically it takes a particle spinal to destroy it. Not bad for 500 Dt...
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
Well that’s another LBB5 oversight, the indestructible small ship that absorbs capital damage because the build rules goes straight percentage and does not deal in volume vs surface effects.
Glad I could help prod the creation of the only rational design to actually perform a fleet level function. Expensive as heck, but maybe justifiable for wartime when crew training and ship replacement is at a premium.
Of course it is the halving of the armor volume use at TL15 that makes this work.
Oh, a black globe version while we are busy ruining the naval budget.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
Bonded Superdense armor is TL=14-15.
It's the TL=15 fusion power plant that is the real limiting factor on tonnage.
Although ... you might be able to get away with TL=14 for that 520 ton design if you increase the displacement up to 600 tons and drop the armor factor back down to Armor: 14. Of course, doing that would give you 2 more turrets (and gunners) to play with and account for ...
3 missile batteries, not 4.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
Four missile turrets and a mixed fusion/sandcaster turret for a total of five turrets in a 520 Dt ship.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
Not quite, that is 16 Dton over budget. We have to decrease armour to 11 to make it fit...
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
Expensive, yes, but less so than a GCr 2 missile-bay-armed frigate.
It allows us to be in four times as many places for the same budget...
Compared to a MCr 300 Gazelle, that is basically a door-stop in combat power, it's not very expensive.
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AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
That is a staple of LBB5 combat and always has been: the 1000 Dt rock rider with a single bay and max armour. It can basically only be killed by spinals, cfr. Eurisko.
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
I designed those the first day I started making ships. Wasn’t the rock one but everything else.
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kilemall
SOC-14 5K
I think it's pretty close.
Now keep in mind a battleship in CT terms is something like 3000-5000 tons. Say it's 3000 tons and 10 triple lasers, 10 triple missiles and 10 triple sandcasters, that's enough firepower to lay on 30 laser hits, 30 missiles with a potential of 3-180 hits, and lay on a sand shield that no laser or missile can get through. More missile hits if you use the supplement to up warheads, neutralize ECM or do kinetic impacts.
The advanced evasion programs can readily get you to -5DM, the to-hit Predict program can get you +4 and Gunner Interact adds Gunnery skill for likely typical +6 (which +1 or more total DM increases range to hit from 500,000km to 900,000 km), ECM kills a slew of missiles that are not improved, and double-fire/return fire can TRIPLE output, not to mention allow for anti-missile fire. Plus that often overlooked program, Select Fire, which allows for disabling specific systems.
Different combat systems with nominally the same hardware and differing software costs, but by and large I could see justifying the HG difference.
