Interesting, does anybody have any thoughts on the much Cinematized modified Baretta-22 (fulll-auto) or a Glock? Are full auto pistols worth anything?
Perfect PC Sidearm
- Thread starter Father Fletch
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The Glock 18 is worth it only if you use the 30 round magazine made for it, and that's still just the same as 2 of the standard 15rd mags. Autofire capable, yes, but it doesn't have a burst mode so it is all or nothing as you hold down the trigger and the cyclic rate is high enough you'll empty the mag in a couple of seconds. So maybe if you had a snail drum with a lot of rounds?
Same with the modded Beretta, which does exist but not as you see it in Robocop. It has a little snap down minigrip for the front of the frame but otherwise looks like an M9. It's the 93R.
I think if you want something concealable ('cuz a magazine hanging another 6 inches out of the bottom of your Glock or Beretta isn't any easier to conceal), then just go for something like an HK MP5K PDW. The thing is barely longer than it's 30 rd magazine with the stock folded, has selectable (depending on model) 1, 2, 3, 4, or full auto modes...and with a single point sling and the 15rd mag you can carry it under your arm with no more trouble concealing it than you would a Colt Python. And HK makes a shoulder holster with pouches for two more mags on the offside. They also make a briefcase to carry and fire it from if you need that sort of thing.
The advantage of a PDW or SMG over a autofire-pistol in even the same caliber is better stability = accuracy= engaging the target from a little longer range, and the other factors inherent in using a weapon designed for a purpose that the other one really isn't made for, but has it as a kinda cool option.
Keklas Rekobah
SOC-14 1K
No ... I was thinking more along the lines of the "Seven-Shot Six-Shooter" ... or maybe Dirty Harry's own revolver...
One of the best movie lines of all time.Harry Calahan said:
(Sorry for the derail.)
So that would be my favorite: A handgun that either delivers more rounds, or one with rounds that do more damage.
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BlackBat242
SOC-14 1K
What about a "six-shooter" that fires 12 rounds?
A high-tech version of this?
Walch Navy Model Revolver 12 Shot Cylinder 36 Caliber
It has 6 chambers in the cylinder, but the loads are stacked two deep.
Pulling the right trigger drops the right hammer onto the outer cap, which fires through a tube into the powder load of the front shot.
Pulling the left trigger drops the left hammer onto the inner cap, which fires through a short hole into the powder load of the rear shot.
A modern version would use electrical firing of caseless ammo, and would sequentially fire the ammo, thus eliminating the major weakness of the Walch design... accidentally firing the rear shot without having first fired the front one!*
Caseless ammunition
* hard for a right-handed person, because of the staggered triggers, but firing the pistol left-handed was much touchier, as the trigger finger sometimes pulled both triggers at the same time!
A high-tech version of this?
Walch Navy Model Revolver 12 Shot Cylinder 36 Caliber
It has 6 chambers in the cylinder, but the loads are stacked two deep.
Pulling the right trigger drops the right hammer onto the outer cap, which fires through a tube into the powder load of the front shot.
Pulling the left trigger drops the left hammer onto the inner cap, which fires through a short hole into the powder load of the rear shot.
A modern version would use electrical firing of caseless ammo, and would sequentially fire the ammo, thus eliminating the major weakness of the Walch design... accidentally firing the rear shot without having first fired the front one!*
Caseless ammunition
* hard for a right-handed person, because of the staggered triggers, but firing the pistol left-handed was much touchier, as the trigger finger sometimes pulled both triggers at the same time!
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I think my favorite gun is the one RH uses in "I Come In Peace."
My group has allways called it a fully-auto gauss pistol, firing explosive needles. Only game thats come close to simulating it was the Cyberpunk 2020s Hardwired suppliment, and in that case the slivers were usually moisture detonated so they would get the AP effect and go through armor before going BOOM. Also, when they didnt get through the armor, if the guy removing the slivers from his armor wasnt wearing gloves, the sweat from his hands would cause them to detonate. Nasty gun.
Not a round to use in a fog though....
My group has allways called it a fully-auto gauss pistol, firing explosive needles. Only game thats come close to simulating it was the Cyberpunk 2020s Hardwired suppliment, and in that case the slivers were usually moisture detonated so they would get the AP effect and go through armor before going BOOM. Also, when they didnt get through the armor, if the guy removing the slivers from his armor wasnt wearing gloves, the sweat from his hands would cause them to detonate. Nasty gun.
Not a round to use in a fog though....
bromdenlong
SOC-12
Sabredog:
I am only familiar with CT, in which snubs do not use gyrojet or rocket rounds.
I understand HEAP rounds, but they'd be just as good in standard slugthrowers.
In CT OTU, small arms have a very hard time punching through bulkheads, and basically can't breach outer hull at all. Damaging computers, powerplants, drives, etc., seems to be left up to referees.
I am only familiar with CT, in which snubs do not use gyrojet or rocket rounds.
I understand HEAP rounds, but they'd be just as good in standard slugthrowers.
In CT OTU, small arms have a very hard time punching through bulkheads, and basically can't breach outer hull at all. Damaging computers, powerplants, drives, etc., seems to be left up to referees.
Gray Lensman
SOC-13
My Sidearms
I want TWO Gauss pistols, two body pistols (as hold outs) and as many blades (throwing and not) as I can carry/conceal. :devil:
musta voted for gauss pistol ya think
I want TWO Gauss pistols, two body pistols (as hold outs) and as many blades (throwing and not) as I can carry/conceal. :devil:
musta voted for gauss pistol ya think
I want TWO Gauss pistols, two body pistols (as hold outs) and as many blades (throwing and not) as I can carry/conceal. :devil:
musta voted for gauss pistol ya think
Don't forget a cheap "drop gun", just in case.
Yeah, I just saw that last night in Book 4. Funny how you play a game so long that the details that don't make sense get melded together with your own ideas until you'll fight to the death that the "real" rule is the one you imagine.
Still and all, the snub gun is still a good choice for zero-G when you consider that Traveller didn't have a laser or gauss pistol until Striker came out (unless you consider anything that was in JTAS as official canon). Now that is the best 0-G handgun, and with the bump up it gets for being an energy weapon when figuring damage it's pretty deadly.
BTW: while I don't use the OTU I know a sidearm is unlikely to breach a bulkhead, but the interior walls separating staterooms, etc., that are between the bulkheaded compartments are not too difficult to breach and high powered slugthrowers might be considered too hazardous on a liner for regular security duty. If a real gun battle breaks out I'm sure that not only would the security guys swap out the tranq mags for the HEAP loads, their buddies would be running for the gun lockers with the shotguns and accelerator rifles.
bromdenlong
SOC-12
Hyphen -
In CT (again, the only system I'm familiar with), a single set of range bands is used to rate the accuracy of all small arms. If memory serves, Close is contact to 2m, Short is 3m to 5m, and Medium is 6m to 50m. In CT, according to Mercenary and Snapshot, snubs are good to 50m. Off the top of my head, I'd think 10m or 15m would be more like it, but even 25m is a vast improvement in realism. In CT, the range bands are universal, however.
Different range bands for each weapon/ammo combo doesn't seem like it would slow down play much, if at all, but I haven't tried it. Can anyone with experience with this please comment?
Since HEAP rounds penetrate armor better than standard slugs, and HEAP and HE both do more damage than standard slugs, then why would snubs be doing less damage to equipment or bulkheads than standard slugthrowers? They should be doing more damage, so why are they a better shipboard weapon? And if you're not using HE/HEAP, then what good is it except as a tranq or taser gun?
Well, OK, IF you give them SHORTER RANGE than standard pistols, that short range wouldn't mean much on ship, especially a smaller ship. You'd have a light, low-recoil zero-g weapon that did plenty of damage out to sufficient range. If the claim of lesser damage to gear is dropped, then I'll buy it as a possibly better shipboard weapon, but not as a better all- around sidearm. I want something that's reasonably good in more open spaces.
(Note: Hyphen, I'm not saying you claimed lesser wall and equipment damage, but others have, and I think CT canon may as well.)
In CT (again, the only system I'm familiar with), a single set of range bands is used to rate the accuracy of all small arms. If memory serves, Close is contact to 2m, Short is 3m to 5m, and Medium is 6m to 50m. In CT, according to Mercenary and Snapshot, snubs are good to 50m. Off the top of my head, I'd think 10m or 15m would be more like it, but even 25m is a vast improvement in realism. In CT, the range bands are universal, however.
Different range bands for each weapon/ammo combo doesn't seem like it would slow down play much, if at all, but I haven't tried it. Can anyone with experience with this please comment?
Since HEAP rounds penetrate armor better than standard slugs, and HEAP and HE both do more damage than standard slugs, then why would snubs be doing less damage to equipment or bulkheads than standard slugthrowers? They should be doing more damage, so why are they a better shipboard weapon? And if you're not using HE/HEAP, then what good is it except as a tranq or taser gun?
Well, OK, IF you give them SHORTER RANGE than standard pistols, that short range wouldn't mean much on ship, especially a smaller ship. You'd have a light, low-recoil zero-g weapon that did plenty of damage out to sufficient range. If the claim of lesser damage to gear is dropped, then I'll buy it as a possibly better shipboard weapon, but not as a better all- around sidearm. I want something that's reasonably good in more open spaces.
(Note: Hyphen, I'm not saying you claimed lesser wall and equipment damage, but others have, and I think CT canon may as well.)
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Paperweights?
Like the .50 Desert Eagle they will be da bomb for the Pimp or drug dealer who needs to impress the ladies. Pity you can't chrome plate the Glock, but the Beretta has room for lots of gold, weeping madonnas, and gang-fitti.
I like Gray Lensman's idea but I'm taking it to a higher level: I'm duct taping two gauss pistols together and carrying two of them for the New York Reload.
And I'm adding a bayonet to the body pistols so I can carry even more knives.
Oooh, ooh! Here's something I wrote up for my CyberPunk campaign a long time ago....I'll just use this:
Lansing Fletcher "Zipgun"
Gauss weapon tech firing 4mm needle rounds embedded in 60rd plastic tape contained in factory sealed drum. Magazine mounts in front of trigger guard on dovetail groove. Polymer construction. Drum style mag carries high discharge capacitors to power weapon. Fires 20 round bursts as tape is pulled through the chamber by a ratchet drive. Rounds that fail to "fire" are just pulled through so the weapon will not jam. Zero recoil, allows engaging three targets per burst with 2 chances to hit each.
Sometime I gotta write the stats to that and a bunch of other weapons I made for that campaign into CT figures.
Ah-ha! Found where I thought they were gyro-jets: it was a gun I made for CyberPunk using the snub as inspiration.
"Fabrique Nationale Gyro
Also known as the "whizzbang" or "frump gun" the gyro autopistol fires an electrically primed 20mm gyrojet round with either an HE, flechette, or HEAP warhead. The flechettes are rapid dissolving tranquilizers that while designed for use by Peace Enforcers have become the favorite among organ-legger "meatmen" since they don't harm the "merchandise.
No moving parts, high signature, and requires a lot of cleaning, but nonetheless a highly effective handgun when you need a high powered load but a lightweight pistol with low recoil."
Mystery solved - I'm just getting old and it's all blurring together.
POW. "OOF. Oooh... can you get me a Tums or something for this? Somebody? I got such a stomachache..."
I think at least part of the reason why most pistols don't have the HEAP rounds, and why they might be more effective in snub pistols, is the size of the rounds. Snub pistols fire 1cm rounds, whereas I think CT revolvers and auto pistols are in the vicinity of 7mm. Quite a difference, which allows more exlposive power.
bromdenlong
SOC-12
Travlar:
In CT, the standard for autopistols and revolvers is 9mm Luger/Parabellum/NATO (.355 inch) or .357 magnum (.357 inch). 1cm/10mm is .40 caliber. The snub round isn't that monstrous. It's smaller than .45acp or .45 Colt or .44 special.
For a 9mm bullet to hold the same amount of explosive, it just needs to be a little longer than the 10mm explosive bullet. The 9mm Luger case is pretty small, so packing in a longer bullet is more problematic, but I just can't see it being a problem for the .357 magnum.
I think it would be pretty chinchy and uptight of a ref to not allow autopistols and revolvers to use HE and HEAP based on 1mm of diameter, especially given that .40 caliber autopistols are so common now, as are .45 autos and .44 and .45 revolvers.
For that matter, body pistols are based on .38 special and .380 auto, which have the same bullet diameters as the .357 and 9mm respectively, so they should be able to use HE/HEAP rounds too.
In CT, the standard for autopistols and revolvers is 9mm Luger/Parabellum/NATO (.355 inch) or .357 magnum (.357 inch). 1cm/10mm is .40 caliber. The snub round isn't that monstrous. It's smaller than .45acp or .45 Colt or .44 special.
For a 9mm bullet to hold the same amount of explosive, it just needs to be a little longer than the 10mm explosive bullet. The 9mm Luger case is pretty small, so packing in a longer bullet is more problematic, but I just can't see it being a problem for the .357 magnum.
I think it would be pretty chinchy and uptight of a ref to not allow autopistols and revolvers to use HE and HEAP based on 1mm of diameter, especially given that .40 caliber autopistols are so common now, as are .45 autos and .44 and .45 revolvers.
For that matter, body pistols are based on .38 special and .380 auto, which have the same bullet diameters as the .357 and 9mm respectively, so they should be able to use HE/HEAP rounds too.
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One major reason is velocity. High velocity HE rounds of small arm size are less likely to detonate because of the need for the round to be strong enough to not be damaged (or pre-detonated) when fired. It's artillery 101.
So a lower velocity round can have a less heavy casing which also allows for more explosive material which makes it worth doing in the first place. A 9mm HST round from my Glock is going to do more damage than an HE round of .40 caliber because the larger round will need a thicker casing and carry less HE unless it's velocity is reduced. While my 9mm HST round just blows in at high velocity and does all sorts of damage without having to explode.
Also, HEAT rounds need a certain amount of stand-off time to properly detonate. They are shaped charges that need an extra split second to form the plasma jet from the explosive medium and it's liner. If the round is going too fast it won't go off properly, if at all, and not do the damage needed. This is why you see a long rod on the nose of a tank's HEAT round - the thing goes so fast (though much slower than a APFSDS round), that standoff distance provided by the rod to begin detonation allows the thing to work.
Now a snub HEAT round might be more like a squash head round, but I doubt it since that wouldn't provide actual penetration given how small the explosion would actually be. And those just kill by spalling anyway. No, I figure its a low velocity shape charge that punches a small, but very hot and damaging hole in you.
bromdenlong
SOC-12
I agree with Sabredog that HE and HEAP rounds would likely be lower velocity. Lower velocity rounds are not a problem for revolvers, but are for autos.
Hmm. I need to amend my previous post. It would make sense to disallow HE/HEAP rounds for standard and pocket autopistols, or to insist that autopistols be either standard pressure/velocity models, or low pressure/velocity models that can only use slower, shorter-ranged HE, HEAP, tranq or taser rounds.
Hmm. I need to amend my previous post. It would make sense to disallow HE/HEAP rounds for standard and pocket autopistols, or to insist that autopistols be either standard pressure/velocity models, or low pressure/velocity models that can only use slower, shorter-ranged HE, HEAP, tranq or taser rounds.
I voted for Gauss Pistol, but at lower Tech levels I'd consider this:
http://securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/1600/1643.htm
I remember reading when it came out that its cyclic rate has been tweaked; with each round the recoil will (with a right-handed firer) make the barrel follow a circular path- and the next round fires as the barrel returns to the original point. Theoretically that could allow accurate(ish) fire, full auto, with one hand. In practice, I have no idea whether it works; the last full auto I fired was tripod mounted, firing tracer at a target 3500 metres away, and that was nearly 20 years ago...
http://securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/1600/1643.htm
I remember reading when it came out that its cyclic rate has been tweaked; with each round the recoil will (with a right-handed firer) make the barrel follow a circular path- and the next round fires as the barrel returns to the original point. Theoretically that could allow accurate(ish) fire, full auto, with one hand. In practice, I have no idea whether it works; the last full auto I fired was tripod mounted, firing tracer at a target 3500 metres away, and that was nearly 20 years ago...
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