Psionics and the imperium?
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Otto Harkaman
SOC-12
Thanks for the recommend just watched Plato's Stepchildren.
ShapeShifter
SOC-13
I'm certain that, like many things in the game, the inspiration for Psionics came from the Dumarest series of novels. People and creatures with any psionic abilities were hotly sought after by the villainous organization of the Cyclan. In the first book, The Winds of Gath (publ. Oct. 1967), the Cyclan were keen to dissect small deaf/blind rodentlike creatures who communicated with each other and sensed their immediate surroundings telepathically, in order to learn the secret of how they could do that. The love-interests in the next two books had telepathic abilities. I strongly recommend this series for its pure Traveller-ness (Travellocity?).
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Psionics also came from AD&D and D&D which Marc played extensively combined with the general interest in ESP that was around in the late 1970s (this was the time of Uri Geller and lots of pseudoscience). But, then as now, it came to a question of balance. If you have a bunch of high powered psykers running around then you get Jedi without any sort of game balance. And, Traveller very much rooted in the ordinary hero - the stiff who has to make ends meet in an uncaring universe. Which is a very 1970s view of SF but to counteract or perhaps balance it, Marc decided to make it rooted in the Golden Age of SF tradition. However, I think because, we grew up in the 70s, we kept that earlier tradition alive and tacked on new bits, as we saw fit.
And, when I say 70s, I refer to SF movie culture - literary book culture had experienced a much earlier renaissance through the New Wave movement in SF which had its roots in turn in the Beat culture of the 1950s & early 60s. So, yes, I agree with the concept that Traveller has to keep up with cultural developments but in a way that does preserve balance and keeps with some fundamental ethos (and that is the subject of countless threads). For me it is rooted in a 70s sensibilities, 80s Chrome, 90s DIY culture and 21st century technology.
And, when I say 70s, I refer to SF movie culture - literary book culture had experienced a much earlier renaissance through the New Wave movement in SF which had its roots in turn in the Beat culture of the 1950s & early 60s. So, yes, I agree with the concept that Traveller has to keep up with cultural developments but in a way that does preserve balance and keeps with some fundamental ethos (and that is the subject of countless threads). For me it is rooted in a 70s sensibilities, 80s Chrome, 90s DIY culture and 21st century technology.
ShapeShifter
SOC-13
Ah yes, Mr. Bendy Spoons Guy! :rofl:
The fascination for the paranormal, ESP, etc. arose in the late-Fifties/early Sixties, but reached a crescendo in the late Sixties and carried all through the Seventies as an outgrowth of the Counterculture Movement with its 'out of the box', Non-Western Cultural influences, alternative medicine (acupuncture, yoga), Transcendental Meditation, Eastern Philosophy/Spirituality (Daoism, Yi Jing, Sufism, Buddhism), Occult (Tarot cards), Xenozoology (Bigfoot, Loch Ness Monster), etc. I remember that time very lucidly.
o: Groovy....IIRC an early ep of Star Trek TOS had 'ESPers' -- i.e. people with heightened mental powers. And later on in 1979's Buck Rogers TV show quite a few characters had what amount to Psionic abilities. I'm sure we can all think of quite a few pop-cultural references to name-check.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
You're older than I'd have guessed. Oh, you mean the NINETEEN hundreds, not the EIGHTEEN hundreds, or the centuries before too of course.
Rasputin before Geller. Nostradamus before Case. etc. etc., all the way back to pre-history I'm sure. Mysticism and different practices have always been a popular escapism, especially so for the desperate times and/or people looking for anything that offers hope.
To have not included Psioincs in Traveller would have been a serious oversight and snub to much popular science-fiction/fantasy that inspired the game.
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A great many books and, of course, Star Wars and Star Trek had psionics or the equivalent - its a standard trope - doubt there was any one dominant influence.
In my very first Traveller games we took psionics for granted (except Teleportation - that I nixed as just too hokey ). Didn't use them much, though. So when I wrote my first chargen programs, I left psionics out (probably just forgot). Every iteration there after, the same. Since my 'OTU' lacked anything past the first 6 books and 2 supplements, there was no Zhodani, either.
In my very first Traveller games we took psionics for granted (except Teleportation - that I nixed as just too hokey
). Didn't use them much, though. So when I wrote my first chargen programs, I left psionics out (probably just forgot). Every iteration there after, the same. Since my 'OTU' lacked anything past the first 6 books and 2 supplements, there was no Zhodani, either.Otto Harkaman
SOC-12
Well this thread has gotten pretty interesting, Madam Blavatsky and the theosophical Society comes to mind.
Makes me think how weirdly the Zhodani have been setup, seems like such a mix of contradictions. I could see if they were a small isolated planet of introverts but they're not. You would think with their Psi powers they could have easily picked up any technological information they wanted from the Imperium if not from other cultures. Plus their culture seems so oppressive like Sparta that I couldn't see how they could control so many different planets. I admit I haven't read everything about them yet.
Makes me think how weirdly the Zhodani have been setup, seems like such a mix of contradictions. I could see if they were a small isolated planet of introverts but they're not. You would think with their Psi powers they could have easily picked up any technological information they wanted from the Imperium if not from other cultures. Plus their culture seems so oppressive like Sparta that I couldn't see how they could control so many different planets. I admit I haven't read everything about them yet.
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I have psionics in my current game. We will see how it goes.
The Zhodani are odd, though I think probably why the consulate lasted so long was because lack of enemies and cultural homgeneity. Though I understand technological backwardness in that what is the point of inventing anything great if you remain just a prole? This had a big effect on many societies, like classical China, where classism hurt innovation. Once the Consulate faced the empress wave (and Black Ships IMTU) it collapsed.
The Zhodani are odd, though I think probably why the consulate lasted so long was because lack of enemies and cultural homgeneity. Though I understand technological backwardness in that what is the point of inventing anything great if you remain just a prole? This had a big effect on many societies, like classical China, where classism hurt innovation. Once the Consulate faced the empress wave (and Black Ships IMTU) it collapsed.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Re: Zhodani, it depends largely on how one interprets the info and how much more one wants to invest in fleshing out the culture.
I seem to recall, though possibly my own addition if not canon or otherwise plundered that this would be seen as "mind rape" by the Zhodani, and only a sick Psionicist would engage in such. And there are no sick Psionicists in the Consulate. It would be as repugnant and criminal to them as physical rape is to us. Or worse.
The key there being "seems", from an external viewpoint without full understanding. In the Consulate it isn't oppressive at all. At least not in my take/version. There is freedom, art, expression, etc., only that mental disease/malaise is practically and thoroughly treated. To put it one way (musically) the Zhodani have no Blues (and don't miss it, they don't need it therapeutically like we do since none of them get the blues) but they do have very great uplifting musical works.
In MTU the Zhodani fight, reluctantly, at some technological disadvantage, to hold the line against the barbarians (the rest of the unenlightened races) to protect their paradise. The heart of the Consulate is peaceful and idyllic (and totally unknown to outsiders, TOTALLY), the borders a bit less so because of the strife caused by the barbarians.
In MTU this leads to several "interesting" secrets and divergences from canon. Nothing apparent to the barbarians, yet. If they only knew...
I seem to recall, though possibly my own addition if not canon or otherwise plundered that this would be seen as "mind rape" by the Zhodani, and only a sick Psionicist would engage in such. And there are no sick Psionicists in the Consulate. It would be as repugnant and criminal to them as physical rape is to us. Or worse.
The key there being "seems", from an external viewpoint without full understanding. In the Consulate it isn't oppressive at all. At least not in my take/version. There is freedom, art, expression, etc., only that mental disease/malaise is practically and thoroughly treated. To put it one way (musically) the Zhodani have no Blues (and don't miss it, they don't need it therapeutically like we do since none of them get the blues) but they do have very great uplifting musical works.
In MTU the Zhodani fight, reluctantly, at some technological disadvantage, to hold the line against the barbarians (the rest of the unenlightened races) to protect their paradise. The heart of the Consulate is peaceful and idyllic (and totally unknown to outsiders, TOTALLY), the borders a bit less so because of the strife caused by the barbarians.
In MTU this leads to several "interesting" secrets and divergences from canon. Nothing apparent to the barbarians, yet. If they only knew...
IMTU, going off TNE & 1248, by the time of my campaign: 1323, the Imperial government is allowing the Zhodani refugees to settle in parts of the Imperium, like the Core sector, Dagudashag, Zarushagar, Lishun, etc that were depopulated by the rebellion or virus. Psionic shield technology has improved and the Imperial secret police don't mind some thought police on the force either; not that you would know they exist.
Gray Pennell
SOC-12
As most people have pointed out psionics have been part of SiFi for decades and belong with in a good space opera. The psionic suppression is just a game balance tool to prevent PCs from going hog wild. Admitting you have the power is like coming out of the closet more a social suppression than physical attacks which would only occur in the backwater worlds. Another way to play would be the Babylon 5 way with the psi cops. I havent read a lot of the Zho and their society so thanks for posting on this.
My read on the Zhodani is strongly flavored by living in what is a former Russian Colony...
Think of all the matronly Russian grandmothers... busybodies all, and constantly after everyone to do the right thing. Now, give them the ability to make you WANT to conform, and to pluck guiltiness right out. That's life in the Zhodani noble and intendant culture... Your meddling busybody grandmother can tell when you've done something wrong, and what. And can directly share with you her memories of her grandmother doing the same. So can Grandfather.
Prole children have the "guardians of our morality" (Tavrchedle) gently adjusting them after youthful indiscretions. So do adults... but the adults also are used to it. Morality can be shown to them as being passed down from the nobles, by sharing the memories telepathically. Guilt is instantly known. If you think someone has lied, you talk to the Tavrchedle about them, and one will ask them and see if indeed they are.
And their "mechanical" lie detectors are calibrated much more finely than Imperial ones... because they can be calibrated on real people without knowledge by the subject.
And mental illness is detected as such and corrected in the mind, by mixture of corrective surgery and deep telepathic probes.
I'll note also: only the T4 and TNE rules support such intrusive level Tavrchedle..
Think of all the matronly Russian grandmothers... busybodies all, and constantly after everyone to do the right thing. Now, give them the ability to make you WANT to conform, and to pluck guiltiness right out. That's life in the Zhodani noble and intendant culture... Your meddling busybody grandmother can tell when you've done something wrong, and what. And can directly share with you her memories of her grandmother doing the same. So can Grandfather.
Prole children have the "guardians of our morality" (Tavrchedle) gently adjusting them after youthful indiscretions. So do adults... but the adults also are used to it. Morality can be shown to them as being passed down from the nobles, by sharing the memories telepathically. Guilt is instantly known. If you think someone has lied, you talk to the Tavrchedle about them, and one will ask them and see if indeed they are.
And their "mechanical" lie detectors are calibrated much more finely than Imperial ones... because they can be calibrated on real people without knowledge by the subject.
And mental illness is detected as such and corrected in the mind, by mixture of corrective surgery and deep telepathic probes.
I'll note also: only the T4 and TNE rules support such intrusive level Tavrchedle..
I guess Austria is like Zhodane as well, no crime and the prisons are very modern correctional institutes that find out what went wrong with you, very low recidivism. You never know any criminals, any sort of lying or doing something wrong is met with gut-wrenching turmoil of Catholic guilt, everyone is a rube and it is all very boring a lot of time. Police are highly respected and there are a lot of them, but they don't do too much. I remeber reading in Die Presse that Vienna had 18 murders (mostly wives shooting their husbands for cheating) and they caught 14 of them, it was in something like 2003 or so. A girlfriend from Rome came to visit me in Salzburg and she left 20 schillings on the table at a tavern by mistake and we came back a couple hours later and it was still there, she asked are there even burglars here?
Some white lies are told out of respect, I don't know if the Zhodani would stop that. I think some lenience towards the law comes as well or you are just prosecuting everybody for every little thing including stupidity which becomes an impossible task.
Some white lies are told out of respect, I don't know if the Zhodani would stop that. I think some lenience towards the law comes as well or you are just prosecuting everybody for every little thing including stupidity which becomes an impossible task.
Otto Harkaman
SOC-12
Hmmm been contemplating what several people have written about the Zhodani on here. I guess I am looking at them from the perspective of the Fifth Frontier War boardgame.
As far as I can tell they have started every war. Not to mention in the Fifth they attacked much like the Japanese at Pearl Harbor only officially declaring war after the attack had begun. Seems they have become more and more paranoid though these wars and the encroachment of the Imperium on their star space. I can't see them not intelligence gathering (invading people's mind or mental rape as Far-Trader stated) it is a necessity of war. Especially by a culture suffering paranoia and fear of loss of autonomy. I get the idea that they think their backs are up against the wall.
I suppose their culture could be in a sort of crisis. The inner planets and culture much as Far-Trader and Aramis have described. their "ideal." And then the planets closer to the Imperium adapting to the Social Darwinism caused by frequent wars and overlapping spheres of influence.
As far as I can tell they have started every war. Not to mention in the Fifth they attacked much like the Japanese at Pearl Harbor only officially declaring war after the attack had begun. Seems they have become more and more paranoid though these wars and the encroachment of the Imperium on their star space. I can't see them not intelligence gathering (invading people's mind or mental rape as Far-Trader stated) it is a necessity of war. Especially by a culture suffering paranoia and fear of loss of autonomy. I get the idea that they think their backs are up against the wall.
I suppose their culture could be in a sort of crisis. The inner planets and culture much as Far-Trader and Aramis have described. their "ideal." And then the planets closer to the Imperium adapting to the Social Darwinism caused by frequent wars and overlapping spheres of influence.
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Gray Pennell
SOC-12
Good points Otto. The Zho were often seen as foils to the Imperuim. my Zho baddy will use psionics to complete her mission. it is this willings that helps keep the imperuim psionics suppressed. This is a fictional world the zho are the bad guys its ok they dont mind.
My point was that you don't need psionics to create a closed and what might seem an oppressive society, at least to an outsider. As far as the wars go, they are fairly well separated in time; and to the Zhodani the Imperium seems a bigger threat, expanding towards them with the ability to absorb their worlds (which was the Imperium's idea in the first place), which the Zhodani do not want to absorb any Imperials, just keep them from expanding into their turf. The Zhodani have had the time to work out the kinks of a society with psionics, while the Imperium hasn't.
O
Omnivore
Guest
One aspect of the OTU Imperium-Zhodani conflict that has bugged me over the years can best be summed up as a mini campaign. Allow your players to play a small group of 'Marine Force Recon' Zhodani types and turn them loose on the Imperium side of the border with a mission to raise economic and political havoc.
It would seem to be utterly stupid of the Zhodanis to wage an expensive conventional war when they could create a buffer zone of chaos deep enough to play hell with Imperium military logistics along with keeping the Imperium bogged down on the frontier with myriad brush fires using far cheaper psionic amplified unconventional tactics. Even sticking to pure espionage, the ability of the Zhodani operatives to basically create deep cover operatives at will and maneuver them into critical positions would, given enough time, allow them to topple governments and create civil wars throughout the region anytime they chose.
Practically any budding radical movement anywhere in the region could easily be turned into an instrument of terror at times and places of Zhodani choosing. Organized crime and pirate organizations could be rather easily influenced by psi operatives to create economic chaos. These operations would be self funding since it would be trivial to play the stock market or engage in speculative trade very profitably when one has control over events that can change short and/or long term values.
There are hints of such activities in the OTU source materials but, in my opinion, they are given far too little weight.
It would seem to be utterly stupid of the Zhodanis to wage an expensive conventional war when they could create a buffer zone of chaos deep enough to play hell with Imperium military logistics along with keeping the Imperium bogged down on the frontier with myriad brush fires using far cheaper psionic amplified unconventional tactics. Even sticking to pure espionage, the ability of the Zhodani operatives to basically create deep cover operatives at will and maneuver them into critical positions would, given enough time, allow them to topple governments and create civil wars throughout the region anytime they chose.
Practically any budding radical movement anywhere in the region could easily be turned into an instrument of terror at times and places of Zhodani choosing. Organized crime and pirate organizations could be rather easily influenced by psi operatives to create economic chaos. These operations would be self funding since it would be trivial to play the stock market or engage in speculative trade very profitably when one has control over events that can change short and/or long term values.
There are hints of such activities in the OTU source materials but, in my opinion, they are given far too little weight.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
I've actually thought about doing this
It sounds fun and engaging. However you're overlooking the Imperium's counter measures to such expected activity.Psi-shielding on sensitive installations and personnel for one . In mtu most Imperial assets in the Marches are heavily invested in such... psi-shielding is standard for uniform suits. Some ships are even shielded to prevent snooping and porting. Weapons are secure against psi tampering. And so on. It won't be a cakewalk for the psionic mischief makers.
Imperial psionic assests doing their own counter espionage on suspected sympathizers and agents for another. What? You don't think the Imperium has it's own psionic program? hehehehe... And they aren't wasting their talents on fixing broken minds.
And detection screens set up at the better starports to covertly alert Imperial agents of the presence of psionic activity and potentials. Not every detected potential is actually trained or active. Those who aren't may find themselves quietly and covertly screened and tested for loyalty and either end up in an accident where some minor brain surgery is required or offered a chance of a lifetime to serve the Imperium in ways they never imagined possible.
IMTU, the Zhodani are Dervish mentality, as I quoted earlir: "Psionics is a science through which one can know how to travel into the presence of the Divine, purify one's inner self from filth, and beautify it with a variety of praiseworthy traits." Using Psionics for bad they wouldn't do, using it to defend themselves yes, their wars against the Imperium are defensive wars (even if they aren't, that is what the sector governor sells them as, and it's not a lie if you trully believe it). Which in essence is true, they can't and have no desire to absorb Imperials, which the Imperium does want to conquer the Zhodani; it is just the Imperium has reached the end of the line. Neither side is competent militarily, the Imperium can just flood the field with cannonfodder to overmatch Zhodani spirit.
