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Psionics and the imperium?

However you're overlooking the Imperium's counter measures to such expected activity.

Psi-shielding on sensitive installations and personnel for one.

Imperial psionic assests doing their own counter espionage on suspected sympathizers and agents for another.

And detection screens set up at the better starports to covertly alert Imperial agents of the presence of psionic activity and potentials.

How many of these counter measures are canon OTU though? Of course individual psi shields are, but I wasn't aware that large areas could be screened, nor do I remember seeing anything about detection machinery. I also wonder what the psi operative ratio would be.

Striker Book 2 pg 40 gives a breakdown of psi specialists in Zhodani military units and I believe there were some TAS articles on the subject. I also remember reading somewhere along the line that Zhodani excels in the science and practice of psychology. I wonder just how effective and time consuming are Zhodani brainwashing techniques in the OTU?

In indirect action scenarios, Zhodani agents could easily overwhelm personal protective measures in a civilian environment. Consider a bartender at a popular after hours hangout for Imperial military personnel as an example. Such a person would make a good, unwitting, 'first contact' agent. Followup contact through co-opted or otherwise suborned (brainwashed?) agents to setup a target in a compromising situation. Non military types would be even easier to suborn in most cases except for the most highly and sensitively placed individuals.

Against indirect action and once or twice removed relationships, any effective defense would need to be very broad spectrum across all levels of society. Otherwise, given a few years time, a team of a half dozen or so Zhodani agents could establish control over a hundred or more individuals and maneuver them into effective positions. A single exceptionally talented agent could cause all sorts of mischief and mayhem.

I agree that if you add sufficient counter-psi tech on the Imperium side you can arrive at the OTU presentation of the Imperium/Zhodani border area, but my perception is that the OTU does not provide for that counter.
 
How many of these counter measures are canon OTU though?

Logical enough follow on tech imo to develop larger area shields. Especially once the Zhodani book added psionic switches to the bag of tricks. Nothing exists in a vacuum, and predicating the sum total of all science based on just what is explicitly canon is a fallacy.

The secret (Imperial Navy spook run iirc) psionic institutes are canon. I'm pretty sure agents of the same are mentioned somewhere. Agents would be few but I don't see needing that many, they'd be placed with the most valued assets or on special missions. It's not like you'd need them on every slum street corner :)

Detection comes from the Neural Activity Scanners of MT (iirc) introduction. If they can differentiate individuals then they can detect the differences that make a Psi what they are. At least in my opinion.

Without reasonable counter measures there's no reason for the Zhodani to be stalemated at the border. They could have taken over easily using the techniques you mentioned and more. So it's either counter with tech, or change the society like Dragoner did (mentioned above) so they neuter themselves out of conquest.
 
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So it's either counter with tech, or change the society like Dragoner did (mentioned above) so they neuter themselves out of conquest.

If they are evil, then they are unstoppable; for example there was just a psionics discussion about crushing someone's brain with TK in the campaign I'm running. What stops a TK from instantly killing Norris or whoever they like with no trail? Detonating a nuke on ships? Either there are limits, or it is unstoppable superpowers.
 
If they are evil, then they are unstoppable...

That's the thing though, they don't have to be evil to be unstoppable.

The Zho see the rest of humaniti as little better than primitive barbarians for the most part. And they feel rightly terrorized by the expansionist policies of these crazed psychopaths. So much so that they have taken to war with them. Something anethama to their choice of sanity and a happy life. So much so that they must (imo) select and recondition vast numbers of citizens to be able to wage even the limited warfare they do. The Zho have no desire for conquest, they only mean to keep the barbarians from the gate, and barely manage to do that.

It has to only be because they cannot cure them. So that means the Imperium et al must have very effective counters to Psionic intrusion and manipulation, or they would have long ago been subjugated and corrected.

Far from being evil, in the Zho opinion, they are themselves the reasonable good guys. It is the barbarian hoards that are evil and even then not so much evil as ill. An illness the Zho have a cure for, and would gladly apply, alas it is one they cannot use even though it is in the best interests of the barbarians. The barbarians have made it impossible out of fear and ignorance.

Evil. Good. Useless words in this case. No society ever thinks itself evil, only its enemies are evil because they oppose them.
 
That's the thing though, they don't have to be evil to be unstoppable.

Good or bad, they can kill whoever they want with a thought, cause the missile magazines to detonate on ships, teleport with a suitcase nuke into Strephon's Palace, steal every technology, ad nauseum. They become supermen, nobody can stand against them.
 
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Good or bad, they can kill whoever they want with a thought, cause the missile magazines to detonate on ships, teleport with a suitcase nuke into Strephon's Palace, steal every technology, ad nauseum. They become supermen, nobody can stand against them.

More than that, which would be by definition evil and bad, I'm talking about being able to manipulate the minds of a choice few in power to swing the politics towards the benefits of Psionic treatment for depression, mania, and any number of other societal illnesses.

In a few generations (and it has been many more than a few generations) the Imperium, i.e. the barbarians at the gate, would be for all intents and purposes Zhodani. Cleverly done they wouldn't even know it and would still consider themselves free thinking Imperials. Only now they would be on friendly terms with the Zhodani and engaging in their own worries and programs against the further off barbarians at their own gates, the Solomani et al.

So, why didn't that happen? We know all humaniti is potentially Psionic so it's not some inborn immunity to Psionics. It has to be technological. And it has to have been around for some time. Probably from the time of the Psionic Suppressions if not earlier. And the paranoia of the Consulate, which yes the Imperium would see as supermen, bent on imposing their culture on the Imperium and enslaving them, as wrong as that view is. It follows then that the Imperium employs tech to thwart the Zho while pursuing a war against keeping them out and more.

No doubt early on the Imperium hoped to wipe them out, not knowing how big the Consulate was. Now they are hoping to win by attrition, and I think that has a good shot at working. How long can a pacifist people keep finding or breaking enough of their good citizens to fight before there are none left? I'm surprised they've lasted this long. In my opinion they likely employ mercenaries more than actual Zhodani in combat, and the whole Psionic Fleets and Commandos is just so much propaganda, perhaps supported by a very few special missions. Remember you (iirc) said something about them being masters of psychology. They tread a fine line between scaring the barbarians enough that they won't attack in force our of fear but not so much that they do attack in force out of even greater fear.
 
There is nothing the Imperium can do, any technological advantage will instantly be known or very shortly so.
 
There is nothing the Imperium can do, any technological advantage will instantly be known or very shortly so.

Hardly. And even if the Zho do...

...know they have Psionic shielding what are the Zho going to do about it?

...know Psionic potential detection screening is used what are the Zho going to do about it?

...know they have their own Psionic special forces what are the Zho going to do about it?

...know the very latest Imperial secret development against the Zho what are the Zho going to do about it?

Knowing is one thing (and intelligence is never perfect). Doing something with that knowledge is another entirely.
 
You have used some sort of artificial limitation, like I was saying.

Psionic potentintial detection screening, psionic special forces? Where are those from? Even with a psi shield, you are pointing youself as a target, once you take it off, everything is known, no rolls.

The most written up about the Zhodani and use of Psionics, is Ordeal by Eshaar.
 
Umm, have you considered the likely Imperial response to a concerted Zhodani psi-war, given the level of paranoia in the Imperium about psi's? I think I can sum it up in one word: genocide.

The Zhodani walk a tightrope with the Imperials. The Imperials enjoy a tech advantage and a far larger empire. The skirmishes along their mutual borders have been just that - skirmishes, small wars involving the Imperial sector fleet with occasional support from Corridor, opposing the rough Zhodani equivalent. Neither the Zhodani nor the Imperium have ever thrown their full weight behind a war. For that reason, they've been more or less matched over the centuries. For all that there've been 5 wars, I see nothing in canon on the scale of the Solomani Rim War, which ran 12 years and tore most of one sector and parts of five other sectors from the Solomani sphere.

The Imperials have no great passion for conquest at this point in this sector, and the Zhodani have no driving urge to absorb and rehabilitate an entire sector of barbarians. However, let the Zhodani launch a psi-war and truly frighten the Imperials, let the Emperor decide that the Zhodani are an existential threat to the Imperium, and you'd start a war that would make the Solomani Rim War look like a minor squabble. You'd have a war that wouldn't end until the buffer of dead glowing worlds between Zhodane and Rhylanor was so thick that a fleet could fly six months without seeing a living soul.
 
Unless the Zhodani won, not ten years after the FFW, the Imperium collapses.

I'm interested in any sources that Far-Trader has so I can use them, because I am running Psionics in Beyond The Frontier. I haven't used them that much before, but I want to.
 
As I recall, there were hints through canon that something serious was grabbing the Zho's attention around that time. I'm not sure what it was, but it was a pretty serious distraction for them.
 
The Empress Wave, but that has gone back and forth in various editions to what and how much an effect it had.

IMTU, I have the Empress wave AND the black ships that hammer them and they fall apart. So not long after the Zhodani save billions of refugees fleeing the Imperium, but then a hundred years later the Imperium is inviting Zhodani in to re-settle devestated worlds (if the 1105 Imperium is 2nd century Rome, then my 1323 is Pre-Manzikert Byzantium). I continue with the 1248 era, just 75 years after, which I believe even in TNE (Regency Sourcebook?), the Zhodani refugee flood was beginning.
 
I can't put my memory on specifics for the Imperial Psi ops, I vaguely recall something in a MT or TNE adventure and other hints dropped, possibly in the Ref part of the MT Encyclopedia?

The psi potential detection seems a logical enough outcome of psi shield helm tech and neural activity scanners. They are stated as related in canon iirc, in the description of one or the other I think, again I suspect in MT.

Being able to make wider area effect Psi shielding seems like it would be easy and equally valid, especially in the Marches. There was a Traveller novel that had Zho troops teleporting onto an Imperial ship and wrecking all kinds of havoc. Tell me the Imperium wouldn't have thought of that tactic and put measures in place to counter it and I'll demand you pull the other one ;)

...that's even believing the tactic is possible given Traveller's teleport rules. I think the author took excessive artistic license because it was kewl. And it was, kewl that is. It still stretched my belief suspenders out of shape.

Basically it comes down to sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. You don't have one side getting a leg up without the other taking steps to counter it or you wouldn't have the two sides stalemated as they have been for what... centuries?
 
The psi potential detection seems a logical enough outcome of psi shield helm tech and neural activity scanners. They are stated as related in canon iirc, in the description of one or the other I think, again I suspect in MT.

Not sure about how canon is what I'll say here, but is how I handle it:

Psionic (specifically telepath) detection can be quite easily achieved by having NAS (where enyone psi-shielded, either natural or atificial shield, will not show) and any other 'body detecting' tech (e.g. IR) and comparing them (quite easy for a good computer). Anyone not showing in the NAS will be suspected psion. Of course if the shield is lowered, they will show up, but it's not usual for a telepath to lower his/her shield.

About knowing new tech by reading minds, as I understand it, reading surface thoughts is unnoticed by the read person, but probe is not. And to read the technological secrets from one scientist, you'd have to probe him/her, as reading surface thoughts will, at most, give you some hints about his/her work.
 
Detection technology and large area shielding would be effective measures for defending critical targets against direct action. The problem is, that doesn't do much to prevent psionic operatives from operating in a force multiplier role for espionage actions (especially indirect actions).

Let's say you are trying to lock down an entire world by putting detectors and appropriate personnel at starports. Note that this does nothing to stop non-psionic operatives or suborned agents from infiltrating. In the Zhodani Alien Module, mention is made of teleportation to orbit. Admittedly nothing is said about survival rates or required equipment.

Assume that teleportation from orbit to surface isn't possible (CT Bk 3 rules hold) even with special equipment. Still, a specially equipped aircraft maneuvering and using gravitic tech to minimize potential energy differences with a starship in orbit or on approach could allow for teleportation between the two.

Other insertion possibilities would include stealth drop capsules and sports type reentry kits. Body control could possibly be used to insert an operative in a load of raw materials or other cargo. Worst case, non-psionic operatives or suborned agents could mount an operation to breach the detection and/or shielding machinery along with causing distractions of various types to assist entry of psionic operatives.

As far as the idea that a 'psi war' would kick off a 'no holds barred' counter reaction.. what is the difference between a traditional espionage/fifth column campaign and one that uses psionic operatives in a support role? Basically none to an outside observer.

I would also argue that it is much easier to create chaos than order. A mission goal of turning an Imperial sector into a Consulate sector would be far more difficult and expensive than a mission goal of tying down Imperial assets and interrupting supplies through fifth column actions. The creation of such a disorganized buffer zone fits with stated Zhodani objectives.

The role of psionic operatives in an indirect action force multiplier espionage/fifth column role would be to identify, suborn, (re)educate, coordinate and control the leaders and key players in the actual, non-psionic, espionage/fifth column organizations. Direct action by psionic operatives would be extremely rare outside of those roles.

Tech theft would be difficult but not impossible to do in an undetected manner assuming counter-psi defenses at the research and manufacturing installations. If the key individuals can be identified and if they ever leave the protected areas, it becomes much easier. Abduct, drain, dispose - quite possibly could be made to look like an accidental death. For obvious reasons, this type of activity would be best instigated far from the front.

Jewell, Mongo, and Lysen in the Jewell subsector would be prime candidates for ongoing long term disruption operations. Jewell itself would be an excellent place to create and support extremist movements that would be both pro Imperium and anti Zhodani as well as pro Zhodani and anti Imperium (Inge Givar) and even a religious based or anarchist movement for more confusion.

The entire Regina subsector would be a good area for engaging in trade disruption activities, using existing and/or creating new pirate and organized crime organizations. The entire IISS xboat network throughout the spinward marches would be a prime target for deep cover agents emplaced so as to be able to cut communications when triggered.

I'd expect, that even given detection and large area shielding technology, the entire Spinward Marches would be a hotbed of intrigue, espionage, counter espionage, terrorism, counter-terrorism, insurgency and counter-insurgency. Even keeping the region at a low-broil serves the Zhodani interests by not only tying up Imperial assets but by maintaining the nightmare threat of cutting the tail of any large Imperium task forces at will.
 
I disagree with that in two ways.

It's true that it's easier to create chaos than order, but if you're uncovered as creating chaos in enemy territory, that same proof may unite enemy against you, so backfiring.

I also have serious doubts about the Zhodani preferring a 'chaos zone' instead that an Imperial controlled zone in their border. Zhodani, being an orderly and law abiding society, seem to prefer to have a goverment which with to deal than having the chaos you suggest they will like to create, as this same chaos is less controlable by themselves.

As long as their border is under control (even Imperial control), they may foresee what can come from it and take 'civilized' measures if need arises. Should it became a free zone full of terrorism and piracy, their own borders would be less secure, and it would be no one to talk with when thins get out of control.
 
...that's even believing the tactic is possible given Traveller's teleport rules. I think the author took excessive artistic license because it was kewl. And it was, kewl that is. It still stretched my belief suspenders out of shape.

Basically it comes down to sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. You don't have one side getting a leg up without the other taking steps to counter it or you wouldn't have the two sides stalemated as they have been for what... centuries?

Broadsword had the teleporting Zhodani commandos; though IMTU, with the good Zho's, they make you sit in the comfy chair and torture you with a pillow.

Stalemate isn't so unbelievable if both sides are totally incompetent, look at the multiple wars and stalemate between the Russian Empire and the Ottomans in the Caucasus/Balkans.

The rub always is that for one's best designed ploys, the players will always find some angle that will suprise you.
 
...As far as the idea that a 'psi war' would kick off a 'no holds barred' counter reaction.. what is the difference between a traditional espionage/fifth column campaign and one that uses psionic operatives in a support role? Basically none to an outside observer. ...

... The role of psionic operatives in an indirect action force multiplier espionage/fifth column role would be to identify, suborn, (re)educate, coordinate and control the leaders and key players in the actual, non-psionic, espionage/fifth column organizations. Direct action by psionic operatives would be extremely rare outside of those roles.

But he also said:

...I would also argue that it is much easier to create chaos than order. ... The creation of such a disorganized buffer zone fits with stated Zhodani objectives.

...[list of varied disruptive operations]...

I'd expect, that even given detection and large area shielding technology, the entire Spinward Marches would be a hotbed of intrigue, espionage, counter espionage, terrorism, counter-terrorism, insurgency and counter-insurgency. Even keeping the region at a low-broil serves the Zhodani interests by not only tying up Imperial assets but by maintaining the nightmare threat of cutting the tail of any large Imperium task forces at will.

You contradict yourself nicely.

Zho agents in a traditional - which is to say, low key - espionage campaign might arouse a quick flash of local hostility where found, but not much more than that. Zho agents engaged in a low key fifth column campaign would be about what we had just before the FFW erupted - a few Ine Givar incidents here and there, a nasty lot of them where they held strength (Efate, for example), perhaps a couple of events like that business on Dinom. Noteworthy, worrisome, but nothing that's going to put the sector in chaos.

However, the more active the Zho get, the more attention they draw. Even our relatively low modern tech and capabilities are quite adequate to figure out what kind of capabilities a given group should have, to tell when a group is showing resources and skills that suggest active outside support, and to trace that support. To think that a TL-15 culture - or even a TL10 culture - is not going to be able to tell when local subversives start showing unusual levels of skills, resources, and activity, and that they won't draw the correct conclusions from that, requires an extraordinary degree of wishful thinking.

More to the point, Imperial culture is actively hostile to psionics in the first place. They're primed to suspect Zho influence even where there's not Zho influence. Think along the lines of the the U.S. in the '50's - not just anti-communist, but reflexively, fervently anti-communist to the point that people with legitimate grievances were often accused of being Communist stooges for daring to challenge the status quo. For a while there, it was a regular little witch hunt, we embarrassed ourselves mightily.

Now imagine that the Soviets of that era had ramped up their espionage/fifth column efforts within the U.S. by an order of magnitude. It would not have gone unnoticed, and it would have taken very little in the way of evidence for people to have convinced themselves the Sovs were behind it. The reaction would not be rational. It would be reflexive and emotional. Even knowing the price, that kind of thing might have led to war. People do incredibly bad things out of fear and hatred.

Your Zho face that problem. They can engage in low-key espionage. They can do a bit of clandestine support where insurgents are active. However, not every world is Efate. They'd have to work harder to rouse the local malcontents on a lot of worlds, they'd have to work a lot harder to turn the disaffected into an effective disruptive element on a lot of worlds, and the harder they work at it, the greater the risk of being caught at it. Worse, the more chaos they sow, the more willing people will be to blame them even in the absence of evidence, simply because the Zhos, being psis, are the preferred scapegoats.

Recall, one of the leading causes of the Psionic Suppression in the Imperium was the suspicion that the Institutes were evolving into a fifth column for Zhodani interests.

That's why the Zho effort has been more targeted than generalized. Turn Efate, and you isolate Jewell Subsector while the rest of the Marches goes on about their business, more concerned with the price of eggs than what happens around a distant star. Try to play that game on a more generalized front, and you'd find yourself summoning up the war fleets from the Zhodani core to counter the fleets coming up from the Imperial core to crush the Psionic Threat - and I'm pretty sure the Imperials have more ships.
 
The "Referee Eyes Only" section of the Regency Sourcebook for TNE is the best source for information regarding the psionic resources available to the Imperium.

The material is written on a high level. You aren't going to get stats for shield helmets or teleportation dampers. Instead, the material discusses the path taken by Imperial psionic research after the Supressions, how that path differed from the Zhodani model, and the general capabilities that research produced.

The Imperium, for example, has developed "mechanical" analogues to many, if not all, of the known "biological" psionic powers. The Imperium can also "wire" psions into "mechanical" systems, something used at the various Longbow facilities, and has determined just how much "signal" the human brain can "process" before sections are "burned out".

Perhaps most telling, the Imperium's psionic capabilities and the way the Imperium thinks about those capabilities are expressed in terms used to describe electronic warfare. Imperial think tanks speak about a "psionic spectrum" and how the Imperium can either knock all or just certain parts of that spectrum "off the air". The Imperium even suspects some of it's psionic capabilities can over match some Zhodani capabilities and that it may prove beneficial during wartime for the Imperium to leave "windows" open in the psionic spectrum so that it may use its own capabilities.

All this means that the Imperium does have psionic shielding for vehicles, vessels, ships, and even regions. All this means that the Imperium does have sensors to locate psionic activity, either general or specific, and dampers which prevent the same, again either general or specific. All this means that any potential Imperial psionic capability you can think of which fits the electronic warfare, ECM/ECCM mold is probably a good bet.

When re-reading the sourcebook's section on psionics, I couldn't help be struck by the differing emphasis each superpower has employed with regards to their psionic research. The Consulate seems to be focused on "biological" or "natural" psionics while the Imperium has chosen a "mechanical" or "artificial" focus to most likely negate the Consulate's several thousand year head start. The "natural" Zhodani method has produced relatively small numbers of exquisitely trained, highly skilled, "bowmen" while the "mechanical" Imperial method has the potential of producing huge numbers of "musketeers" whose deadly skill resides primarily in the devices they carry rather than in techniques which can take a lifetime to learn.

In the case of bowmen versus musketeers we all know who won in the end...
 
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