Robots and Synthetics in the Third Imperium

[mike wightman]

Because I'm getting fed up with people changing the setting around me. Please note that I'm not invoking any special privilege to not have the setting changed around me; I'm just getting fed up with it.

Welcome to my world

We have pre-HG 1105 3I, we have a post-HG 1105 3I described by CT, MgT and partially by GT. We move to the MT era and completely different underlying technology, and then on to TNE where the technology paradigm changes yet again (and yet is retconned to have existed during the earlier eras). Now we have T5 and yet more changes to the technology, some of which have major setting implications.

A shared setting like the OTU that has been 35 years in the making? Yes. Yes, it should,

It's never really been a shared setting - it has been a sandbox setting for the game designers and exemplar of how a Traveller setting could function. Just about every author has changed significant stuff, often due to their own misunderstandings, lack or research or just plain prejudice towards how they think it should be done.

I know you have spent years trying to iron out the inconsistencies, suggest fixes and retconns and make a coherent setting out of the OTU, but such a vision is only possible for the author of the original setting, and when MWM decides to change stuff in T5 we have to ask the question 'how does this change the setting', not 'does this apply to the OTU'.

Isn't there a law of unintended consequence?

 

[Carlobrand]

... when MWM decides to change stuff in T5 we have to ask the question 'how does this change the setting', not 'does this apply to the OTU'. ...

No, we ask, "What kind of new setting does this give us?" There are still people out there wedded to a pre-HG small ship universe. Nobody is telling them that Book-2 has been decanonized. We don't tell them that the OTU doesn't apply to them anymore. We try to craft different visions of the OTU that will satisfy both them and those who want the big ships.

Seems like this debate crops up whenever there's a new rule set published. There has to be room under the tent for both the new and the old, or else you alienate a subset of players and undercut your market for the new product.

 

[rancke]

No, we ask, "What kind of new setting does this give us?"

The question I would like to ask is "How does this expand upon the setting I already know?"

There are still people out there wedded to a pre-HG small ship universe.

As I've pointed out before, the problem with the pre-HG universe isn't so much that it's a small ship universe, it's that it's a Trillions-of-people-can-afford-way-more-ships-than-that universe. If Book 2 had never been superceded, the early TU would still have had to be changed drastically to achieve a modicum of plausibility. (And since that would have given us an IN with a couple of million combat vessels, it's really a Very Good Thing that HG came out and allowed 500,000T battleships).

Nobody is telling them that Book-2 has been decanonized.

Unfortunately, it hasn't. Originally it was grandfathered and with MgT and T5 it has been ressurrected, kinda.

We don't tell them that the OTU doesn't apply to them anymore.

We lie to them?

We try to craft different visions of the OTU that will satisfy both them and those who want the big ships.

And what do we do when we realize that that's not possible?

Seems like this debate crops up whenever there's a new rule set published.

Only when the new rule (or setting detail) contradicts (i.e. is mutually exclusive with) previously published information. New rules and setting details that expand and enhance PPM are greeted with loud hosannas (OK, a bit of hyperbole there ).

There has to be room under the tent for both the new and the old, or else you alienate a subset of players and undercut your market for the new product.

That's only possible when the new and the old are not mutually exclusive.

Personally, I think that if MM wants to explore a setting that is radically different from the setting that has evolved over 35 years, he should drop the old setting and start over with a new one, not try to shoehorn elements that don't fit into it. I'd be unhappy if there were to be no more stuff published for the Third Imperium setting, but not half as unhappy as I am about it being torn and twisted the way it looks like the new stuff is going to tear and twist it.


Hans

 

[aramis]

The question I would like to ask is "How does this expand upon the setting I already know?"

However you let it. But the setting you know isn't the OTU. Never has been, either, based upon your mode of posting about it. It's Hans' variant TU as pruned to his sensibilities and fluffed with a published ATU.

In part this is due to gaps in your collection. In part, this is due to your insistence that certain elements can't be true, even tho' they are MWM approved canon. (Like TA7.)

 

[Carlobrand]

...As I've pointed out before, the problem with the pre-HG universe isn't so much that it's a small ship universe, it's that it's a Trillions-of-people-can-afford-way-more-ships-than-that universe. ...

Maybe. Or it's a universe where the vast bulk of the people and economy don't give two hoots what happens beyond orbit. It's not to my tastes, so I don't feel a great overwhelming urgency to defend the more paradoxical elements, any more than I feel like defending a Virus that infects Hiver and Aslan computers. When I start taking things to what I think are the logical conclusions, with monitoring satellites and patrols everywhere, even the High Guard people start fretting about there being no room for pirates and smugglers.

But, somebody likes it, paradoxical or not. That somebody is a paying customer whose money is good. Give that somebody what he or she wants if you want their cash and try not to think about the paradox. Or don't and watch your market shrink. Simple as that. That's most of the reason they still sell the old rules.

...We lie to them?...

Was it a lie? Or have we in fact told chunks of the fan base that the OTU is not for them anymore? I don't recall anyone ever saying that.

...And what do we do when we realize that that's not possible?...

Since it's already been done, it clearly is possible.

...That's only possible when the new and the old are not mutually exclusive. ...

Nonsense. We have a GURPS universe. We have a MegaTrav-someone-killed-Strephon-or-thought-they-did-and-Virus-is-on-the-horizon universe. That's a perfectly workable precedent. When the new and the old are mutually exclusive, you create mutually exclusive parallel universes, and eve'body be happy.

We've drifted a bit. Subject on the floor is robots, and issue is the different way Book 8 and T5 handle them. No need for parallel universes there, it's just a difference in why the universe is the way it is; the gross structure of the universe remains the same. If they want to errata T5 elements into Book 8 to bring the divergent views into congruence, it's already got MegaTrav stuff errata'd in, so there's ample precedent, so no problem. Easy peasy. Still, if they want Book 8 to remain as is and treat the two universes as ever-so-slightly-different parallels, again there's precedent; no problem. Heck, a lot of folk are already doing that to deal with Virus or Strephon's assassination or High Guard or what-have-you; it's just acknowledging what people are already doing.

However, if they want to pretend CT doesn't exist? Well, that's a problem.

 

[rancke]

In part this is due to gaps in your collection. In part, this is due to your insistence that certain elements can't be true, even tho' they are MWM approved canon. (Like TA7.)

Actually, my insistence is that certain elements can't all be true for the same universe, no matter how ardently anyone insists that they can.

EDIT: Almost forgot: Also that some elements can't be or are very unlikely to be true for any universe.


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

Back to the topic for a bit - Carlo have you looked at the robot building stuff in TNE?

 

[Ulsyus]

Where are the robot-building rules for TNE?

 

[mike wightman]

They are in Vampire Fleets, along with some standard robot designs.

 

[Carlobrand]

Back to the topic for a bit - Carlo have you looked at the robot building stuff in TNE?

I don't own much TNE. I'll have to keep my eye open for it.

 

[aramis]

I don't own much TNE. I'll have to keep my eye open for it.

There is a TNE CD... well, 2 of them, actually. (One is the 1248 stuff by MJD.)

 

[Ulsyus]

How did TNE robot construction stack up against that in T5?

 

[robject]

How did TNE robot construction stack up against that in T5?

If TNE has a robot construction system, it's likely to look a lot like Fire, Fusion, and Steel.

 

[mike wightman]

It's not as complicated as that

It's a lot like a simplified LBB:8

 

[Ulsyus]

So not at all like the rest of TNE! o:

 

[Sir Brad]

The Robot book was to come later, we only got the preliminary rules, you know just enough to let a GM throw Virus infected death machines at the hapless PC's.

 

[robject]

It's not as complicated as that

It's a lot like a simplified LBB:8

Sort of halfway between JTAS and LBB8?

 

[mike wightman]

Sort of halfway between JTAS and LBB8?

That's a nice way to put it - yes.

 

[Ackehece]

Hans - back to T5 (I know that is not what you want but I figure you might be interested)

Pg 573 BBB- the real limit to robots in the T5 Universe
Rust/Decon/Onwee - robot illness that is a result of a QREBS failure
Crazed kill bots are not my friend!o:

 

[Ulsyus]

Pg 573 BBB- the real limit to robots in the T5 Universe
Rust/Decon/Onwee - robot illness that is a result of a QREBS failure

Is there meant to be a game mechanic that leads to the -1 San per month for Decon? I couldn't see anything in Bot Maker or the errata