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RotK (Cause You All Know Yer Fans)

Originally posted by vegascat:
Now I am going to have to reread the book again!

Like we all aren't doing that anyway???


After the perfomance of Legolas, the munchkins are going to be playing elves to the extreme.

OK, just like "Whirlwind Attack", I'm thinking that you're gonna need four or five feats before you get to "Shield Surfing"....

Cluster bombs were made for times like the Battle at the Pelenor Fields, but I was thinking how much trouble a player group could get into with that army aimed at thier ship.

Yeah, but just HOW tripped out would your Band of Mercantile Mercenaries be if the Mob of Ugly Locals laid a Grond (the flaming iron battering ram) upside their Beowulf's cargo hatch.... Too close for missiles or sandcasters to arm for detonation and too low for the upper turret to depress...
 
Originally posted by Ganidiirsi O'Flynn:


<snip>

Yeah, but just HOW tripped out would your Band of Mercantile Mercenaries be if the Mob of Ugly Locals laid a Grond (the flaming iron battering ram) upside their Beowulf's cargo hatch.... Too close for missiles or sandcasters to arm for detonation and too low for the upper turret to depress...
Christopher Stasheff, "The Wizard in . . ." series, provides the example where there is one single world where "Magic" works, and the rest of the universe of strictly Science Fiction. I've toyed a number of times with setting up a world IMTU, set in an "empty" hex, empty because all information about it has been suppressed to make sure the blockade held by a full battleship squadron (only six of whom on board (Captain, XO, and the three Sensor watch-standers) any particular vessel ever get to see outside the ship or the results of sensor information; naturally, fighters aren't carried by these ships, that would cause too many problems). But I've never thought of using Tolkein's world. It would be most interesting, I think, if the Imperium first encountered the world around the beginning of the First Age.

The first Scout Ship, say, in the first century, 0-99, jumps in-system to chart a star otherwise ignored by the 1st and 2nd Imperiums (for whatever reason). It is a Preliminary Survey Vessel, about 300 dTons, with a crew of 4 and a mission team of 4. It survey's the planet, finds a highly active medieval society of mulitple sophont species (including multiple minor branches of Humaniti), apparently locked in war, on the western continent. On the easter continent, they see only wilderness (from orbit).

The Scouts do their orbital mapping. Probes sent down to the eastern continent do not return, which makes the Mission Commander nervous, and so she avoids it. The western continent, though, yields up substantial information, including enough verbal records to assemble several different languages (which makes the linguist among the Scouts push to descend and infiltrate first hand; but all of the Mission Team wants to get a First Contact credit). All mention of "evil", "dark lords", "monsters", and other mythical references are thought to be quaint superstitions. The crew medic prepares an RNA memory boost (mentioned briefly on page 43 of Book 2 as one of many possible high-tech learning systems, and one of many such methods employeed by characters in SF novels, even to this day), and the contact team takes sleep learning on the languages.

The Captain take the ship down, and they happen to begin descending into the lower atmosphere over Thangorodrim. Morgoth takes note. A pair of balrogs are ordered aloft to take a closer look . . .

Multiple Triple Turrets (Laser, Missle, Sandcaster) vs. whips, flames, and sorcery. Burp, delicious, yum.

After the battle, smoking remnants of two balrogs floating to the plain below, the crippled survey ship is descending into Hithlum, where they get to run into such impressive figures as Fingolfin, among others.

Perhaps the remaining weapons aboard the ship can turn a battle or two . . . heh, but anything substantial would alter the outcome of the eventual story. It's a study in an alternate history for a fictional milieu.

Eventually, rescued, the crew report back their findings. They're all believed to be insane, but follow up missions prove them to be right.

Worried about the existence of the such extremely beings (the "Vala"), the Imperium, believing them to be left-over ancients locked in an inexplicable power play amongst themselves, places a Red Zone on the system, and then moves to suppress all information about the planet, and ruthlessly prevent anyone from discovering it again.
 
I just saw it. I just loved it. It had one of the best endings of all recent movies, having actually wrapped up the story and left me satisfied.
 
FINALLY!
A worthy adaptation of a beloved literary work :D :D

Of course, now I'm straining at the bit to see the extended version, in order to catch some of the missing pieces!
Unfortunate reality, that you just can't include everything (although for Tolkien, I WOULD sit through 5+ hour movies).
In all, Jackson & co. have created a masterpiece.
Bravo.
 
originally posted by paraquat johnson
Christopher apparently doesn't like the changes/cuts made for the LotR movies. He has refused to endorse them. He is convinced that none of his father's work can be filmed properly.
well the who gave up the right to the cartoons. There
good for cartoons but no work of art and nothing compared to the movies

wa11eye
 
Christopher Tolkien hasn't been playing nice with the rumor mill. On the one hand he still maintians that his father's work cannot be translated into film faithfully. It's a valid opinion (even if I disagree with it), after all, Tom Bomadil didn't make Jackson's cut.

Because CT hasn't come out and proclaimed Jackson the new Steward of Middle Earth, the entertainment rumor/gossip machine immediately jumps on the "Tolkien's son HATES the film treatments, want's director's head on a platter." Which is untrue. Christopher Tolkien has stated that he actually likes the films on their own merits. He refuses to publically nitpick them apart with "what I would have dones".

Sadly for the entertainment news industry, that sort of attitude doesn't make for good press. So, conjecture is drawn from silence, and spiced up to make eye-grabbing headlines. Sort of like politics, only with smaller stakes.
 
Actually, I felt that Return of the King was a brilliant compromise movie. It was as thrilling as the first in terms of narrative and had all the real cool battle scenes of the second.

I was only disappointed by the breaks and inconsistancies with the book. Not having the Shire turned upside down by Saurman misses an essential point of the book.

BTW,

"Certain death. Impossible odds. What are we waiting for?"

This was taken from Alexandre Dumas, Three Musketeers.
 
Sadly for the entertainment news industry, that sort of attitude doesn't make for good press. So, conjecture is drawn from silence, and spiced up to make eye-grabbing headlines. Sort of like politics, only with smaller stakes.
And, we all know, the smaller the yard, the snarkier and more aggressive the dog. The more petty a thing is, the more people fight over it.

Which is probably a good summation of the Rebellion of 1116.
 
kafka47 wrote:

"I was only disappointed by the breaks and inconsistancies with the book. Not having the Shire turned upside down by Saruman misses an essential point of the book."


Mr. Kafka,

Drat! I was afraid of that. :( Of course, there have been all sorts of the hints that they'd drop the Scouring of the Shire. In 'Fellowship', they cut the gifts of Galadriel from the theatrical release and, in the expanded version, left out the bit where she gives the box containing 'pixie dust' and the mallorn nut to Sam. There were a few other hints too. I'd had some hopes when Frodo saw the Shire destroyed in Galadriel's mirror, but in the end I guess they had to make choices.

It's too bad really. When you remember that Tolkien fought on the Western Front in WW1, the second half of RotK sudenly makes sense. I mean, here's the book and Sauron is defeated just over a third of the way into the narrative! Rather an odd way to end an epic, no? But in the remaining 2/3rds, we read about how the various peoples come to grips with the fact of their victory. They still need to go home, get married, dispense justice, become a king or mayor, handle all those loose ends. The hobbits have really been tourists through the whole affair, they need to see what Saruman does to the Shire to finally grasp what might have happened. Just like Tolkien coming home in 1919 and finding that 1914 England was dead and gone, the characters in LOTR need time to realize that the world has changed.

It's shame Jackson et. al. decided to cut that bit. Maybe we'll see it in the expanded version? Then again, maybe not. After all, Sam didn't get that box from Galadriel.


Sincerely,
Larsen
 
kaladorn mused:

"Remind me never to be a cavalryman engaging elephants. That's about as much fun as being a non-pike infantryman engaging cavalry...."


Mr. Kaladorn,

Historically, horses have always had trouble with elephants (camels too). Something about the odors involved, IIRC. The trouble is so bad that only cavalry units with acclimated mounts could operate anywhere near even friendly elephants on the battlefield. As for the enemy's elephants, it took quite a bit of work with the bit and spurs to get your unacclimated mount anywhere near Jumbo. Pyrrhus managed to rout Rome's legions two or three times thanks to his elephant corps. Both the legionnaires and the mounts of their cavalry units had never seen an elephant before so bug outs were common. I believe the name of a common legionnaire, who was the first to cut an elephant's trunk off with his gladius and thus proved they were mortal, is still known some 3000 years later.

The Romans and others used a variety of anti-elephant devices that seem cruel to 21st Century mores. One was 'flammable pigs'; swine covered in pitch and set alight. The idea was to send the flaming porkers towards the elephants to try and cause a stampede. Another, less disgusting, one involved ox carts with long, swiveling booms projecting to their front. On the end of the booms were pitch-filled pots and large spear heads, the idea being to frighten the elephants way rather than kill them. The Roman's enjoyed using torsion artillery against elephants too.

Anyway, I seriously doubt flaming pigs or ox-carts with hibachis on the end of a pole would really have that much effect on the Haradrim's mumakils! ;)


Sincerely,
Larsen
 
Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
The Romans and others used a variety of anti-elephant devices that seem cruel to 21st Century mores.
But of course, the real way to deal with elephants was to throw or shoot enough things at them that they would run away, preferably through their own troops.

I gather that size might have been one of the factors that tended to bluff horses.

We should probably note that while the Romans eventually became rather proficient in dealing with war elephants, they were rather fond of using them themselves when they had access to them.

Appropriately enough, they took elephants with them when they invaded Epirus! (Or Macedonia, anyway.) I guess turnabout is fair play.


Alan B
 
Okay, I'm feeling particularly fuzzy headed today, who was the legionaire who cut off the tusk of the Elephant with the Gladius?

Also, Elephants could be almost as much of a pox to the army deploying them as to the army confronted by them. Especially if they decided to have a fit. And there were some logistical issues too.

In the movie, that whole battle on the fields of Pelennor was a bit weak.

SPOILER (Cease Reading!)........

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1) The Minas Tirithians were chucking chunks of the city, ostensibly from damage caused by the enemy bombardment. Pretty big chunks, methinks. Who was carrying them up to the Trebuchet positions? Real trebuchets would have probably chucked smaller loads. They should also have far outranged orc catapults and should have begun their engagement long before the enemy was at the walls and in-range of their catapults. Especially the ones on the higher levels.

2) Elephants are nasty. Why charge them? They can't do squat against a building wall or a trebuchet or torsion artillery of other forms. Retreat the cavalry, let them come on, and kill them with artillery and archers. No need for Theoden to die.

3) Same complaint from Two Towers - Ever heard of a buttress? Or any other kind of ad-hoc method of shoring up doors? Apparently no one in Minas Tirith had. The presence of trebuchets suggests siege warfare had occured over time, so why no murder holes and oil? Why such a dismal understanding of how to reinforce a door under attack?

These are just some complaints from a 'sensibility' point of view. The movie was enjoyable, I'd just have found it more enjoyable if things had been a bit more tactically and military engineeringwise coherent and well-thought out.
 
kaladorn wrote:

"Okay, I'm feeling particularly fuzzy headed today, who was the legionaire who cut off the tusk of the Elephant with the Gladius?"


Mr. Barclay,

I've got it aorund here someplace... Drat, you don't get half your stuff back from the cops nowadays! (mutter, mutter, mutter) Anyway, I've read it more than once in different sources. It's a usual Roman name of the period with the three-barreled "initial, name, name" format; i.e. P. Secondus Thirdus. Oh, it was a trunk, he cut off an elephant's trunk. (shudder)

"Also, Elephants could be almost as much of a pox to the army deploying them as to the army confronted by them. Especially if they decided to have a fit. And there were some logistical issues too."

'Zactly. Very tempermental, horses usually don't like 'em, and mountains of fodder. The Romans did use them later on, usually as 'battlefield denial' emplacements against enemy cavalry or draft animals.

"In the movie, that whole battle on the fields of Pelennor was a bit weak." (examples snipped)

You noticed that stuff too? I've only yet seen TTT but was fidgeting over the lack of artillery and other seige defense goodies at Helm's Deep. Murder holes and boiling oil would have been nice but Aragorn dwarf-tossing Gimli was far more cinematic. Loved the Uruk-hai shield 'tortise' guarding the battering ram though.

Here's a few of my oopsies:

- Legolas can shoot flies off a horse's back at 1000 meters yet he can't drop the Uruk-hai berserker carrying the torch to light Saruman's petards. He fails TWICE. Sure, pull the other one it has bells on...

- Gandalf, Eomer, et. al. breaking a PIKE WALL while charging down hill? Down a sandy, shale hill on which horses can't find footing? Yeah, sure...

- Very poor tactical dispositions by Aragorn and the elves atop the wall. Why have most of your missile troops exposed to enemy counterfire?

I guess it's all a side effect of being a wargamer; too much specialized information spoiling the poetic license. As an ex-navy nuc, I couldn't bear to watch 'K-19 Widowermaker' either.


Sincerely,
Larsen

P.S. Theoden buys the farm attacking mumakils? Hmm, yet another change between book and movie. Tolkien knocks off Theoden with a pterodactyl-mounted Ringwraith. The Host of Rohan is routing the Easterlings and Orcs until the Ringwraith appears and knocks off Rohan's C3I. Eowyn and Merry(?) put paid to the Wraith however. (Either Merry or Pippin, can never keep 'em straight!)
 
Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
(Either Merry or Pippin, can never keep 'em straight!)
<shudder> Against my will, my brain emitted the following: "Merry. Pippin was the one who sucked up to the guy from Gondor. Hobbits are really good at brown-nosing royalty, aren't they?"

I hate being a Tolkien-nerd.

I may see ROTK later today. I've been dithering, but I've run out of beer and excuses.

Alan B
 
alanb wrote:

"Against my will, my brain emitted the following: "Merry. Pippin was the one who sucked up to the guy from Gondor. Hobbits are really good at brown-nosing royalty, aren't they?"


Mr. B.,

Merry huh? Thanks, and hobbits are really good about being sycophants. Maybes that's a feat d20 should explore; Suck Up.

"I hate being a Tolkien-nerd."

Tell me about it. While I don't know Tolkien down to the level of minutea that some T-nerds do, I was still disappointed after FotR when Galadriel's gift giving was cut out. I feel that that episode is an important foreshadowing, especially given what the hobbits will find in the Shire after all is said and done (look at one of my earlier posts to this thread). When I tried to explain this to the lady I went to the movie with, her eyes glazed over. Guess I'm a T-nerd after all. :(


Sincerely,
Larsen
 
In no particular order:

Galadriel's Gift - Get the long version. Worth the extra 40-60 mins (FOTR and TT and undoubtedly ROTK when it comes out). A lot of the cut stuff gets uncut (put in) in these scenes. No Tom Benzadrine, but hey, he was a 60s Hippy anyway.

Legolas and the Torchbearer - You're Saruman. Surely you can light a fuse at a distance. But ignoring that, Legolas didn't miss him. I assume he was pumped up on Orc Brew and ignored even lethal damage, capable of operating up to many negative hit points.... (and if you think the Elf Boy was bad in the first two, wait for ROTK). I figure Legolas alone accounted for 200+ Orcs and Goblins and Harradrim in the three movies. Now, there may not be many elves, but you need damn few with those kind of relative kill counts....

Siege Weapons at Helm's Deep - older construction than Minas Tirith possibly (probably not, but built by horse guys who don't have much of a shmeck about static warfare), no murder holes and whatnot justified because all they had to do to fend off the barbs was retreat behind a wall and the barbs ran off in frustration (burnt their crops, etc). This means no need to develop siege warfare skills to speak of or design to withstand assault from assault-ready forces, which the Westfold guys weren't. Besides, Viking's don't do siege warfare.
 
In no particular order:

Galadriel's Gift - Get the long version. Worth the extra 40-60 mins (FOTR and TT and undoubtedly ROTK when it comes out). A lot of the cut stuff gets uncut (put in) in these scenes. No Tom Benzadrine, but hey, he was a 60s Hippy anyway.

Legolas and the Torchbearer - You're Saruman. Surely you can light a fuse at a distance. But ignoring that, Legolas didn't miss him. I assume he was pumped up on Orc Brew and ignored even lethal damage, capable of operating up to many negative hit points.... (and if you think the Elf Boy was bad in the first two, wait for ROTK). I figure Legolas alone accounted for 200+ Orcs and Goblins and Harradrim in the three movies. Now, there may not be many elves, but you need damn few with those kind of relative kill counts....

Siege Weapons at Helm's Deep - older construction than Minas Tirith possibly (probably not, but built by horse guys who don't have much of a shmeck about static warfare), no murder holes and whatnot justified because all they had to do to fend off the barbs was retreat behind a wall and the barbs ran off in frustration (burnt their crops, etc). This means no need to develop siege warfare skills to speak of or design to withstand assault from assault-ready forces, which the Westfold guys weren't. Besides, Viking's don't do siege warfare.
 
Hobbit Sucking Up Feat -- Already Done (for humans, if Troubleshooters can be called human) in Paranoia as the skill Bootlicking. ;)

Theoden - The fight on the Pelennor fields is kind of an accelerated and slightly different (IIRC) version of the whole siege of Gondor and the battle in the books. I'll let you watch it - it is true to the story in the key points. Just differs in some timings/admixtures.

Cavalry Charge into a Pike Wall - Um, Pardon? Yeah, that was a bit weak. Down the shale was bad enough (can you say broken horses and men?) but they'd have shied or thrown riders going into a Pike Wall and the Uruks did seem to know what they were about.

Cavalry Charge into Pike Wall in ROTK - More tolerable, as the word Pike obviously means 5' funny ended pole arm to the orcs of Sauron. They didn't have actual decent pikes/long spears like the Uruks.

Oh, and one last thing: Don't ever screw with the guy who can command the Dead Army. They rock. I personally wouldn't bother bringing any other force to battle.... ;)
 
Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
Here's a few of my oopsies:

- Legolas can shoot flies off a horse's back at 1000 meters yet he can't drop the Uruk-hai berserker carrying the torch to light Saruman's petards. He fails TWICE. Sure, pull the other one it has bells on...
Legolas hits the Uruk-hai twice. The second arrow brings him down, but the Uruk-hai dives forward to deliver the torch.

P.S. Theoden buys the farm attacking mumakils? Hmm, yet another change between book and movie. Tolkien knocks off Theoden with a pterodactyl-mounted Ringwraith. The Host of Rohan is routing the Easterlings and Orcs until the Ringwraith appears and knocks off Rohan's C3I. Eowyn and Merry(?) put paid to the Wraith however. (Either Merry or Pippin, can never keep 'em straight!)
That's basically what happens in the movie. The Witch-King on the Fellbeast attacks Theoden while he and the Rohirran are attacking the Oliphants. Then Merry and Eowyn take him down.

The RotK strategy problem I had was the Gondorians under Faramir at Osgiliath allowing the enemy boats to land, and the enemy troops to unload, before they started attacking. And the Gondorian archers didn't join the battle until the enemy was well into the city.

Why weren't the archers putting shafts into the boats as they were crossing the river? Why not use some flaming arrows, and maybe catch the boats on fire? And why not attack the enemy as soon as the ramps on the boats dropped? Don't allow them to establish a beachhead before counterattacking -- fight them right on the shore, and in the boats, when they are limited in their ability to manuever.
 
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